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Bismark, Majesty and Queen in Tallahassee


floridagrower

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Wow, I can't believe that queen and Bismarckia survived the below 20 deg and frozen precip in January 2014. Not to mention many other nights in the low 20's.

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That's because it wasn't that cold. The airport consistently records lower temperatures. I haven't had any serious damage in years. It's been 9b in town.

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Jeff

North Florida

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Very interesting.  Per the USDA interactive map Tallahassee is right on par hardiness wise as Austin and whatever queens were planted after 2010 in Austin surely died during this years cold spell. I can see a bismarckia making it but not a queen and surely not a majesty.

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I will also point out that at each of these locations there are more than one of each of these palms. These are also not the biggest or oldest of their kind here. There are quite a few large specimens in residential yards much more mature. 15+ years or more that I've noticed in some locations. I have pictures but at the risk of looking like a slimeball, lean towards not posting those. There are a few epic queens that rival anything I've seen in central Florida (serious height). Not common but they are here.

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Jeff

North Florida

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If I recall correctly, the last time Tallahassee had really damaging temperatures was during those deadly 2009-2010 winters, wasn't it?  Tallahassee didn't get very badly affected when that cold event (in Pensacola/Mobile, Alabama) happened a few years later, if I am not mistaken.  Still, there are some pretty cold nights in Tallahassee and, in winter, it just isn't a place that shouts shorts and a t-shirt.  It's the gateway to the panhandle --- nothing like the climate of central Florida and definitely nothing close to the South Florida winter climate. 

 

In addition to having climate variation from the middle of town to the outskirts, Tallahassee also is pretty hilly. I don't know how that impacts the Tallahassee microclimates, but I would rather plant a bismarckia on one of those high hilltops with a good tree canopy overhang in January.  (No mountains in Tallahassee, just hilltops where the cold air should drain down from)

Still, if you drive around Tallahassee, the number one palm you see is Butia Odorata --- absolutely everywhere --- sometimes surprisingly tall ones too.

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5 hours ago, floridagrower said:

That's because it wasn't that cold. The airport consistently records lower temperatures. I haven't had any serious damage in years. It's been 9b in town.

But the frozen precip and there had to have been low 20's at least. I am still flabbergasted these are here. The majesties are a little more explainable and you can clearly see terrible cold damage scarring. The queens and bismarkia I at least would think had considerable leaf damage.

That area those palms are in must be a considerable microclimate. I don't think this is very representative of much of Tallahassee as I seem to remember seeing temps MUCH lower than 9b occurring around there from weather stations during the polar vortex event. Driving around that area recently also, I saw nothing (flora-wise) to indicate the area had been given a 9b break for the last 10 years.

Fully mature Bismarkia out near the beaches in the Western Panhandle were killed by 2014 after enjoying a zone 9 microclimate for years. Same for two mature queens that were in a slight microclimate neighborhood nearby. 2014 wiped killed them too (shown in this thread). 2014, all previous holds on zone 9+ plants/palms were wiped out. I was under the impression this same phenomenon applied for areas at least as far east as Tallahassee.

The only thing I can make of it is that looking closer at your pictures, I see considerable tree canopy around these palms (more so with the Bismarkia). Coupled with the microclimates this could explain.

Edited by Opal92
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I haven't seen a proper 9a winter since 2010. That winter I noticed numerous small queens that didn't make it. There is an apartment complex that put in several Areca palms as throw away perennials. I expected them to die that year. That was six years ago and they are fairly large now. Prior to 2010 there was a triangle palm in midtown.

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Jeff

North Florida

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Opal92,

Those Bismarcks (plural) are not protected and are fairly exposed. Those trees are in the background and due east (see that fence for an idea). Bismarcks do not tolerate shade much. 

Edited by floridagrower
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Jeff

North Florida

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How is that Ravenea rivularis still alive and well (albeit stunted, but leaves look good)?! My 5 gallon up and fried its first winter! No fair! I love the look of trunking rivularis.

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Naples (inland), FL - technically 10a but more like 9b in the winter :hmm:

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Whoever has those palms should enjoy them as long as they last, but I would not depend on continued zone 9 winters in any part of Tallahassee. Driving through many times during the last 10 years, the surviving tropicals I've seen are consistent with 8b temps having occurred. The above palms are anomalies.

florida_map_lg.gif

Edited by Opal92
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I agree. Enjoy them while they last. That's what I'm doing in Daytona Beach Shores with the Cocos. I think all of florida is on a good warming trend,but those fronts will be back. 

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Surely I didn't give the impression that they are lining the roads with these palms. Tallahassee in general does not embrace palms. You have to seek them out as such. But I assure you this area is milder than that chart. There are a handful of pre 80s washingtonia. Also my signature is a picture of ancient mule that survived the 80's. 

More...

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Jeff

North Florida

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It's crazy to see these palms grow with ease in an area with the same record low temperature as here (-2°F or -18.9°C). Tallahassee's a zone higher and far warmer of course, but still.

Though they may not be long term, I say they're worth it if you're getting 10+ years out of them.

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I believe you are referring to the infamous low in the late 1800's. It was officially recorded in an "undisclosed" location outside the Tallahassee area. Questionable at best. It was extremely cold no doubt but we get inconsistent numbers in modern times, so I question the accuracy. 

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Jeff

North Florida

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I remember a big hype somewhere around 2003 or 2004 when people where saying that Tallahassee had hit a shocking low of 13 degrees Fahrenheit.  I don't know which part of town that was in, but it would be hard for bismarckia to survive that temperature if it were true.  Yet, I seem to recall that there were four or five bismarckia nobilis palms growing behind the Quality Inn and Suites on Apallachee Parkway, Tallahassee.  I just checked google maps and you can barely make out two of them in the distant rear if you slide the Google Maps Street View image between the Verizon Store parking lot and Quality Inn and Suites.  Some of those bismarckia looked relatively mature (although somewhat stunted with a short trunk) way back in 2008 or thereabouts.  I have no idea how long ago they were planted, but they likely have survived for many years there. They might still be there today (?)  Could they be an unusually cold-hardy Bismarckia?  I don't know, so I leave that question to the experts.

As for the photo of Ravenna Rivularis above, I know those palms in the photos and they have no way of growing any bigger because they were planted in such a way that they are surrounded by concrete.  If you Google Maps Street View the Eye-I Deals store on Tennessee Street, Tallahassee, they should be visible and there should be three or four of them there in a row.  This definitely is not a customary palm for Tallahassee, but as far as I know, those particular majesty palms have been there for years and will not grow any bigger due to the concrete environmental constraints.  They are growing on the side of a hill, but the bottom of that hill is not very far below.  For this reason, I don't think their hillside position has helped them much with cold air drainage, but perhaps Eye-I Deals blasts its heat in the winter and its storefront has supplemented those Majesty Palms with what they needed to survive. 

 

A Majesty Palm should survive if the lows never drop below 26 Fahrenheit and the daytime temperatures are warm.  Yet Tallahassee gets at least half a dozen nights a year when the temperature drops below that 26 degree mark at night. It may not have happened since 2010, but it does happen there.

 

Overall, Tallahassee is not a very palmy city because people there prefer their "Southern Living" garden classics like live oaks, magnolias, crape myrtles, camellias and azaleas --- just like South Carolina.  However, if you drive around, you will see many old Washingtonia robusta, old Canary Island date palms, the occasional phoenix Sylvestris and dactylifera and LOTS of sabal Palmetto and Butia Odorata.  I have also seen livstona chinensis and at least one mule palm there too. Yet the variety tends to end there unless you really know where to find things like bismarckia and majesty palms. 

Still, I would give a bismarckia a much better chance of long-term survival than a Majesty Palm in Tallahassee.

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Majesty palms are more hardy than you think. 26F causes total defoliation but the bud seems to be hardy to near 20F. There are pre-2010 majesty palms in Houston. 
Bismarckia has survived upper teens in some parts of Houston. In fact, last winter's freeze (low 20s) barely phased most of the Bismarckia around here. I'm beginning to think Bismarckia is not even a marginal palm for the warmer half of Houston (areas where pygmy dates have been growing for years). More and more are popping up in inner city areas. 
Another factor to take into account is heat accumulation and length of the growing season which allow for rapid recovery from freezes, especially if a damaging freeze only occurs every few years. 

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Jonathan

Katy, TX (Zone 9a)

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Syagrus died in Brevard County in the great 1989 freeze.  Of course that same freeze devastated native tropical  shrubs and trees at Cocoa Beach.  

There's no harm in short-term gardening, but Tallahassee is a good place to concentrate on the local area's astonishingly rich native temperate flora.  It's the botanical hotspot of eastern North America.

Butia capitata really does thrive around Tallahassee.  

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Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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18 hours ago, Xenon said:

Majesty palms are more hardy than you think. 26F causes total defoliation but the bud seems to be hardy to near 20F. There are pre-2010 majesty palms in Houston. 
Bismarckia has survived upper teens in some parts of Houston. In fact, last winter's freeze (low 20s) barely phased most of the Bismarckia around here. I'm beginning to think Bismarckia is not even a marginal palm for the warmer half of Houston (areas where pygmy dates have been growing for years). More and more are popping up in inner city areas. 
Another factor to take into account is heat accumulation and length of the growing season which allow for rapid recovery from freezes, especially if a damaging freeze only occurs every few years. 

Spot on. Majesties are really tough, they sure won't enjoy low 20s but they can probably come back from it.

 

Im not too surprised by seeing these palms in Tallahassee. A hill and some concrete goes a long way towards moderating the climate. 

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Westchase | 9b 10a  ◆  Nokomis | 10a  ◆  St. Petersburg | 10a 10b 

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This is pretty astonishing. Looking at the record lows and the susceptibility of cold fronts, you'd think no way these make it. But hey, a nice microclimate, blocking northwesterly winds in a city at 30 degrees north? Just maybe.

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I remember being in Tampa '83 or '84.  There had been an unusually severe freeze and the sight of so many destroyed -- or at least completely browned -- queen palms was shocking and sad.  I think it must have hit the upper teens.  Still, scattered amidst the hammered queen palms were individuals with less damage and some with almost no damage at all.  Were these the famed Santa Catarina queens?  Hopefully, palmists propagated seed of these survivors.  Perhaps their progeny is what can survive in a Tallahassee microclimate.

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  • 6 months later...
On 7/30/2017, 4:49:28, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Very interesting.  Per the USDA interactive map Tallahassee is right on par hardiness wise as Austin and whatever queens were planted after 2010 in Austin surely died during this years cold spell. I can see a bismarckia making it but not a queen and surely not a majesty.

I'm agog

:bemused:

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The low for me was 23 and much of the area was between 22-25 on two occasions. So still a solid 9a. Meanwhile, we are already hitting low 80s and upper 70s. The bismarks are all fine, there are five of them. The one above is the second biggest and that is not a recent picture. The lower fronds are aborting and there are surface spots from the duration. But they are not bad. All queens are fine with big ones at no more than 10% damage. Smaller ones are 50/50. Now the majesty palms and pygmy dates all over town are torched. We heat up extremely fast here and all of those will survive if the owners don't remove them. The majesty above has a half green spear.

Edited by floridagrower
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Jeff

North Florida

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2 hours ago, floridagrower said:

The low for me was 23 and much of the area was between 22-25 on two occasions. So still a solid 9a. Meanwhile, we are already hitting low 80s and upper 70s. The bismarks are all fine, there are five of them. The one above is the second biggest and that is not a recent picture. The lower fronds are aborting and there are surface spots from the duration. But they are not bad. All queens are fine with big ones at no more than 10% damage. Smaller ones are 50/50. Now the majesty palms and pygmy dates all over town are torched. We heat up extremely fast here and all of those will survive if the owners don't remove them. The majesty above has a half green spear.

I still don't understand how such a high latitude in FL that is solid 8b on the USDA map has consistent warm readings like this- what is keeping colder temps at bay?? Tallahassee proper isn't like a forest of skyscrapers that would make such a significant heat island effect.

I imagine the queen and Bismarck had to have almost complete defoliation after being coated in freezing rain for 24 hours while temps were in the 20's in 2014. Time to investigate Google streetview..

Edited by Opal92
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It's quiet easily explained. There are numerous bodies of water to the north east, there are numerous large hills (virtually mountains by Florida standards) to the north east, and the very low airport that records our data is at 58 ft elevation. The low end of the airport is a swamp and barely above sea level. Of course, the cold air blows over town and settles in low areas. This is why Crawfordville is several degrees colder on any cold event, despite being coastal and further south. The lack of palms here is a result of the conservative culture that exists. Without question there are more impressive specimens here in town than anywhere in the panhandle. The queens there in many of the coastal communities are 100% defoliated at the moment. Here you are looking at little to moderate damage on young plants. At this point, even the cold airport is averaging a long-term weak 9a and that is a colder locale than Tallahassee proper. Further, watch the weather on most hot days. We will heat up quicker and get hotter than most anywhere in the state. I frequently go south only to find it is actually more comfortable.

Edited by floridagrower
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Jeff

North Florida

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In the horrific 1987 freeze, Syagrus died in Brevard County (Cocoa Beach, Melbourne).  So did some natives, including the gumbo-limbo trees at the beach.  In that case, I think they'd always lived in thickets with oak canopy.  Left on their own as specimens, the cold was fatal.  

In Florida, it's always the rare cold events that matter.  In the peninsula, there's an eternal tug of war between tropicals sneaking north and temperate plants replacing them after cold disasters.  Think of the native ficus trees and mangroves.  

I figure the booming Latania in my back yard is a relatively temporary plant.  If a hurricane doesn't get it, insects or a cold snap will.

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Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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"Sandy Loam:

I remember a big hype somewhere around 2003 or 2004 when people where saying that Tallahassee had hit a shocking low of 13 degrees Fahrenheit.  I don't know which part of town that was in, but it would be hard for bismarckia to survive that temperature if it were true.  Yet, I seem to recall that there were four or five bismarckia nobilis palms growing behind the Quality Inn and Suites on Apallachee Parkway, Tallahassee.  I just checked google maps and you can barely make out two of them in the distant rear if you slide the Google Maps Street View image between the Verizon Store parking lot and Quality Inn and Suites.  Some of those bismarckia looked relatively mature (although somewhat stunted with a short trunk) way back in 2008 or thereabouts.  I have no idea how long ago they were planted, but they likely have survived for many years there. They might still be there today (?)  Could they be an unusually cold-hardy Bismarckia?  I don't know, so I leave that question to the experts.

As for the photo of Ravenna Rivularis above, I know those palms in the photos and they have no way of growing any bigger because they were planted in such a way that they are surrounded by concrete.  If you Google Maps Street View the Eye-I Deals store on Tennessee Street, Tallahassee, they should be visible and there should be three or four of them there in a row.  This definitely is not a customary palm for Tallahassee, but as far as I know, those particular majesty palms have been there for years and will not grow any bigger due to the concrete environmental constraints.  They are growing on the side of a hill, but the bottom of that hill is not very far below.  For this reason, I don't think their hillside position has helped them much with cold air drainage, but perhaps Eye-I Deals blasts its heat in the winter and its storefront has supplemented those Majesty Palms with what they needed to survive. 

 

A Majesty Palm should survive if the lows never drop below 26 Fahrenheit and the daytime temperatures are warm.  Yet Tallahassee gets at least half a dozen nights a year when the temperature drops below that 26 degree mark at night. It may not have happened since 2010, but it does happen there.

 

Overall, Tallahassee is not a very palmy city because people there prefer their "Southern Living" garden classics like live oaks, magnolias, crape myrtles, camellias and azaleas --- just like South Carolina.  However, if you drive around, you will see many old Washingtonia robusta, old Canary Island date palms, the occasional phoenix Sylvestris and dactylifera and LOTS of sabal Palmetto and Butia Odorata.  I have also seen livstona chinensis and at least one mule palm there too. Yet the variety tends to end there unless you really know where to find things like bismarckia and majesty palms. 

Still, I would give a bismarckia a much better chance of long-term survival than a Majesty Palm in Tallahassee."

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Response:

Looking at Google Street View, I saw the Bismarckias in the back parking lot of the Quality in mentioned above from a May 2017 picture. There are also 2 P. canariensis at the front and P. sylvestris at the side access driveway. Anyone know whether the Bismarcks made it through this winter thus far? Update? / howfam

Edited by howfam
Distinguish quote from response. Add Author of quote. Correct spelling.
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  • 1 year later...

Here is the bismarkia today. About 14 years old.  It was a 7 gallon plant. More of these are beginning to be planted in residential yards. 

20191018_103910.jpg

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Jeff

North Florida

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On 7/31/2017 at 12:19 AM, floridagrower said:

I haven't seen a proper 9a winter since 2010. That winter I noticed numerous small queens that didn't make it. There is an apartment complex that put in several Areca palms as throw away perennials. I expected them to die that year. That was six years ago and they are fairly large now. Prior to 2010 there was a triangle palm in midtown.

I remember being in Tallahassee around 1999 in February and all the small zone 10 stuff planted the previous years as annuals was fried.  This was back when Tallahassee was a true zone 8b/boderline 9a climate, at least according to the maps.  I saw mostly trachys, Butia and Sabal.

The creeping north of the zones is occurring throughout FL, especially in areas with any kind of urbanization.  Tallahassee now 9a closing in on 9b in some spots, metro Orlando zone 10a and Miami zone 11a.

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13 minutes ago, palmsOrl said:

I remember being in Tallahassee around 1999 in February and all the small zone 10 stuff planted the previous years as annuals was fried.  This was back when Tallahassee was a true zone 8b/boderline 9a climate, at least according to the maps.  I saw mostly trachys, Butia and Sabal.

The creeping north of the zones is occurring throughout FL, especially in areas with any kind of urbanization.  Tallahassee now 9a closing in on 9b in some spots, metro Orlando zone 10a and Miami zone 11a.

This is definitely true. There are some really surprising plants popping up.

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Jeff

North Florida

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On 7/30/2017 at 6:49 PM, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Very interesting.  Per the USDA interactive map Tallahassee is right on par hardiness wise as Austin and whatever queens were planted after 2010 in Austin surely died during this years cold spell. I can see a bismarckia making it but not a queen and surely not a majesty.

In Austin, there are a few mature date palms at 828 W 6th St in downtown Austin that, based on old street view photos, survived the 2011 cold snap with total defoliation and are alive today - but the interesting bit is a couple blocks down at 1012 W 6th St. There were two queen palms for a while; the 2011 freeze killed one of them outright, but as of 2019 the other is still standing!  Note that these queens are surrounded on 3 sides by a single-story building and they weren’t much taller than the buildings in 2011 so ether would’ve been well protected, and being downtown they’re solidly inside the heat island.

 

Queen palm in downtown Austin

Edited by CTho
Adjusting streeview link to not stare at the sky
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3 hours ago, CTho said:

In Austin, there are a few mature date palms at 828 W 6th St in downtown Austin that, based on old street view photos, survived the 2011 cold snap with total defoliation and are alive today - but the interesting bit is a couple blocks down at 1012 W 6th St. There were two queen palms for a while; the 2011 freeze killed one of them outright, but as of 2019 the other is still standing!  Note that these queens are surrounded on 3 sides by a single-story building and they weren’t much taller than the buildings in 2011 so ether would’ve been well protected, and being downtown they’re solidly inside the heat island.

 

Queen palm in downtown Austin

I've literally never seen a defoliated date palm here. I suspect our climate is mildler than Austin, despite being considerably smaller. Defoliated pygmy dates used to be common. Other dates are fine. Queens of that size are easy to find and are not protected. The main reason you don't see them here is that people simply do not plant them. Palms are basically frowned upon. 

Jeff

North Florida

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 10/21/2019 at 12:28 PM, floridagrower said:

I've literally never seen a defoliated date palm here. I suspect our climate is mildler than Austin, despite being considerably smaller. Defoliated pygmy dates used to be common. Other dates are fine. Queens of that size are easy to find and are not protected. The main reason you don't see them here is that people simply do not plant them. Palms are basically frowned upon. 

I would think much of these queens (and even bismarks) in your area that survive have hardier genetics to have survived an event like Jan 2014. Like I said, after driving through Tallahassee after winters like 2014, 2015, and 2018 (where upper teens were felt in most all parts of the Panhandle except some areas of the immediate coast), I observed damage consistent with such temps. Even if your temp didn't get below 9a in Jan 2014, there being two such events in the low 20's with a coating of freezing rain in 2014 should have prevented less genetically hardy ones to survive. I am on a quest to find 8b hardy queens currently, and maybe some in that area could be possible candidates. 

Edited by Matthew92
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Matthew92,

I truly believe there is nothing special about any of the palms in this thread. There is no special hardiness. The only thing interesting is that these palms are appearing more regularly each year in a place where they traditionally didn't succeed. But if you wanted you could easily acquire seeds from these palms here nowadays. Here's what they look like now. With piles of seeds in the street...

 

201911_161954.jpg

20191116101701.jpeg

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Jeff

North Florida

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2 hours ago, floridagrower said:

I truly believe there is nothing special about any of the palms in this thread. There is no special hardiness.

This ^^^ because it would probably take many generations for plants of a particular variety growing along the Northern border of it's natural range with certain plants living through dramatic cold events and reproducing while their siblings died in order for a genetic variance to slowly develop allowing the ability to take even a degree or two F lower temp. Perhaps over hundreds or thousands of years something might happen depending on how quickly the plants grow old enough to reproduce AND if they'll produce viable seed at all on the edge of their desired climate. While collecting seed from previous cold event survivors is a step in the direction of increasing cold tolerance, the likelihood of the seed developing into plants that are any more cold tolerant than seed from nearby plants that didn't survive the same cold event is pretty slim. Not saying it wouldn't happen but......

The plants that survive cold events while other nearby plants die is usually because the cold is right at the dividing line of life/death where the smallest micro-climate difference at that time under those exact conditions makes the difference. Might just be which way a 5 MPH breeze is blowing and surrounding environment.

We're "plant people" so we're more attentive to plants needs than the average person. Watering, fertilizing, planting procedures, soil modifications, plant placement, micro-climate, and other things are all considered by people like us. In addition, we're often playing with plants out of their known desired climate so we try to adjust conditions to keep the plant happy. Regular folks don't do that, so nurseries, garden centers, and big box stores carry plants that have the highest possibility of living because they often offer a guarantee of some type. So there's no incentive for retailers to sell zone pushing plants. Since they don't sell them, less get planted, and so the percentage of plants like zone 10 palms in a zone 9 area is low because only plant people willing to risk the loss AND willing to go out of their way to obtain plants or grow them from seed then find a suitable micro-climate that might be suitable will be planting them.

 

 

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  • 3 years later...

I just drove out to abandoned Quality Inn this morning to check on those infamous Bismarks. They are doing very well considering the severe cold snap at the end of Dec. 2023 and having no attention whatsoever. The place is gutted and abandoned, but there is a SOLD sign out front. I fear these will be plowed over with redevelopment. It is hard to realize the scale, but they are at least 10-12 foot of trunk. And, they have fruited. 

20231028_112435.jpg

20231028_112518.jpg

20231028_112530.jpg

Screenshot_20231028_120551_Gallery.jpg

Screenshot_20231028_120616_Gallery.jpg

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