Isn't this Sad?

[Matthew92]

I was looking at streetview for fun in Southwest Florida, and noticed how barren some neighborhoods are of nice palms and trees/plants. Such a waste considering what can be grown there. And I know a lot of people are not interested in plants or maybe their finances are limiting, but can't there just be a little more greenery?

I envy anyone who has the privilege to live in such a wonderful climate. So disappointing that the dominating vegetation (at least in the area I was looking at) primarily consists of stunted queens, schefflera, Phoenix, Washingtonia, Araucaria (Cook or Norfolk Island), white bird of paradise (nice plant, just overused), wildly invasive Brazilian pepper, and even empty yards.. Hardly anything that takes advantage of the climate where so many plants/trees that can't be grown in other parts of the continental United States can grow.

Just go down this cul de sac in streetview towards the main road, and you will see. If one of us palm/plant enthusiasts moved there, can you imagine how that yard would stand out!

When I buy my own house, I'd love to completely revitalize a yard like one of those.

https://www.google.com/maps/@26.968026,-82.1000134,3a,75y,334.36h,85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6KHXgy-NA7nipJvb4FJL7w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[Palmaceae]

I agree, especially here in Cape Coral there are 100's of empty lots and houses with barren yards. 

Here is my house when we moved in over 3 years ago,

 

[Palmcycasnut]

Yeah I'm jealous of their climate and would love to have that growing environment. Total waste. I'm very limited in my Phoenix area conditions. 

[Palmaceae]

And here it is today,

 

[Palmcycasnut]

Nice job! So boring before ha 

[Gonzer]

Not everyone can afford high water bills.

[Palmaceae]

4 minutes ago, Gonzer said:

Not everyone can afford high water bills.

Very true, I am blessed as I have well water, most do in the Cape. But it is a lot of work and most people do not have the time or the desire to keep up with a well grown yard. I have a hard time keeping up with it.

[PalmatierMeg]

That first description sure sounds like Cape Coral. But just a few judicious plantings and a bag or two of fertilizer can really make a difference. People don't have to be like me and Pastor Randy, although some of them drop by our property to ooo & aahh before going on their way. Many gardeners in Cape Coral have a distinct advantage if they would take advantage of it. Cape Coral pioneered the concept of dual water systems: one for potable water and a second of treated wastewater and freshwater canal water for irrigation. Irrigation water costs $10 per month for irrigation 2x (except in extreme drought like earlier this year) per week and unrestricted handwatering. Otherwise, I couldn't afford the many plantings I have on my 0.61 ac homestead. Rainy season lasts 4-1/2 to 5 months. After that, I depend on irrigation to keep many of my plants alive, as extreme heat lasts from April to mid-Oct.

[Matthew92]

1 hour ago, Palmaceae said:

And here it is today,

   That's what I'm talking about!

[Palm Tree Jim]

1 hour ago, Palmaceae said:

And here it is today,

 

Nice!

[greysrigging]

11 hours ago, Gonzer said:

Not everyone can afford high water bills.

Ah but the real enthusiast goes without food and beer ( well not beer ) to pay for water on their beloved palm garden  ( says one who gets about 70" a year but suffers a 4 month total drought May-August ) My dry season water bill runs at about $600.00-$700.00 for 3 months. Yes I do cringe somewhat.....

[hbernstein]

With only a little investment and only some establishment hand watering needed if the planting would be timed right, a very beautiful yard could be planted with native Sabal Palmetto and Serenoa repens.

Practically no maintenance, environmentally appropriate, and pretty much bulletproof. Oh, and also restoring a proper sense of place to the neighborhood.

Edited July 24, 2017 by hbernstein

[Xenon]

Sounds like most of South Texas, except there are only Washies. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Xenon

[DoomsDave]

17 hours ago, Palmaceae said:

And here it is today,

 

A man after me own heart!

Your house now looks like mine, from the front.

[DoomsDave]

1 hour ago, hbernstein said:

With only a little investment and only some establishment hand watering needed if the planting would be timed right, a very beautiful yard could be planted with native Sabal Palmetto and Serenoa repens.

Practically no maintenance, environmentally appropriate, and pretty much bulletproof. Oh, and also restoring a proper sense of place to the neighborhood.

Any examples? Pictures?

Seriously, because I'll send them along to people who need them.

[DoomsDave]

5 hours ago, greysrigging said:

Ah but the real enthusiast goes without food and beer ( well not beer ) to pay for water on their beloved palm garden  ( says one who gets about 70" a year but suffers a 4 month total drought May-August ) My dry season water bill runs at about $600.00-$700.00 for 3 months. Yes I do cringe somewhat.....

Not bad, actually, considering how nice your garden is!

At present exchange rates, looks like your water bill is the same as mine, when it doesn't rain enough to keep the palms happy, which is sometimes for a year or more.

[hbernstein]

41 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

Any examples? Pictures?

Seriously, because I'll send them along to people who need them.

Unfortunately, I don't have any.

Planting "relocated" mature Sabal palmetto is fairly inexpensive. If done at the start of the Summer rainy season,they would only require hand watering for the first few months. Under planting with Serenoa repens would provide an instant, appropriate, palm landscape. Slash Pine, Pinus elliottii var. densa and Muhly Grass, Muhlenbergia capillaris, would be nice additions.  

[IHB1979]

It doesn't make me sad, but it's a nice blank canvas for who ever moves in! Even a small landscape with the usual suspects you mention takes work and time, work and time that most people don't care for...at all.

[sonoranfans]

I see lots of sand in the soil, this makes it a challenge to retain moisture and decent cation exchange capacity.  I have been battling this for years, but the heat and humidity means the mulch I add every year disappears almost as fast as I can put it down.  If I was to start over I would investigate that biochar ammendment as it holds moisiture and nutrients but doesnt degrade for decades at least.  This is why potassium deficiency is so prevalent in floridas sandy soils(miami area is not sandy mostly).  

[Jeff_Cabinda]

On Sun Jul 23 2017 22:04:42 GMT+0100, Palmaceae said:

Very true, I am blessed as I have well water, most do in the Cape. But it is a lot of work and most people do not have the time or the desire to keep up with a well grown yard. I have a hard time keeping up with it.

Some people can prioritise high water bills doing some compromises on the other side. When one wants one can (especially in USA as I am not considering third world country where a drop of water is a drop of Water). This is much thought. Cheers all. Jf

[Jeff_Cabinda]

2 minutes ago, Jeff_Cabinda said:

Some people can prioritise high water bills doing some compromises on the other side. When one wants one can (especially in USA as I am not considering third world country where a drop of water is a drop of Water). This is much thought. Cheers all. Jf

I have no water network supply. Just truck water supply at high price. I prohibits the girls in my house from taking long shower while I am watering my palms nights and days... 

[Missi]

I need a MAJOR overhaul on my 1.14 acres in inland Naples. When we first moved in, there was NOTHING but a big ugly clump of saw palmetto/Brazillian pepper, some slash pines, and a few sabals. I started collecting plants from friends and from garden meetups and haphazardly started planting things in desperate need of shade and privacy  Since then, I've learned quite a bit, and I realize I do need to overhaul my plantings, but I need guidance  Who wants to gather on my humble bandaid strip of land and help a girl out?! I'll do all the work, I just need an aesthetic plan.

[Dave-Vero]

Nothing wrong with saw palmettos.  If need be, they can be cut back, or pruned to emphasize the trunks..  In pinelands, they put up with nearly annual fire, making for those expansive palm lawns.  The palms themselves may be thousands of years old.  Same with young Sabals, provided they have enough room.  It's surprising how much can be done with natives.  Non-natives (of which I have plenty around the house) can provide lots of interest.  

[XYZ]

On 7/23/2017, 2:00:18, Gonzer said:

Not everyone can afford high water bills.

Thank you for pointing this out, Gonz. Seems so wretchedly unfair that everyone isn't eating steak and lobster three time a week in this country...

[sonoranfans]

6 hours ago, Missi said:

I need a MAJOR overhaul on my 1.14 acres in inland Naples. When we first moved in, there was NOTHING but a big ugly clump of saw palmetto/Brazillian pepper, some slash pines, and a few sabals. I started collecting plants from friends and from garden meetups and haphazardly started planting things in desperate need of shade and privacy  Since then, I've learned quite a bit, and I realize I do need to overhaul my plantings, but I need guidance  Who wants to gather on my humble bandaid strip of land and help a girl out?! I'll do all the work, I just need an aesthetic plan.

I would encourage you to look at your property and envision which areas should be sunny and which areas you can easily make shady.  Different palms for different areas and the overhead shade can trap heat in winter allowing a 1/2 zone stretch.  For example my property's exposure and surrounding vegetation(oak woods to the south, street to the north) led me to plant sun lovers like bismarckia and copernicia out front and cold tender jungle in back(overhead oaks).  I do have one sabal palmetto and 6 serenoa repens as natives, but its an area with lots of possibilities for palms.  I have my more tender palms in back and east side with crotons, and bromeliads in back under the canopy.  Sun lovers like bismarckia, Beccariophoenix alfredii, copernicia, borassus A are on the west and north(street) exposure because they like heat and sun.  And save yourself lots of trouble by investigating and using biochar instead of cubic yards of mulch every year that just dissolves into nothing.

 

[Dave-Vero]

Live oaks are not slow growers, and it's worth planting cheap little ones--they catch up to bigger ones, fast.  Gumbo limbo also good.  You should be able to do lots of palms.  Cuban species put up with drier winters than Florida's, so there's a bunch of nice Coccothrinax, Copernicia, and more.  

[Really full garden]

9 hours ago, Missi said:

I need a MAJOR overhaul on my 1.14 acres in inland Naples. When we first moved in, there was NOTHING but a big ugly clump of saw palmetto/Brazillian pepper, some slash pines, and a few sabals. I started collecting plants from friends and from garden meetups and haphazardly started planting things in desperate need of shade and privacy  Since then, I've learned quite a bit, and I realize I do need to overhaul my plantings, but I need guidance  Who wants to gather on my humble bandaid strip of land and help a girl out?! I'll do all the work, I just need an aesthetic plan.

Missi , a garden is ever evolving . You are fortunate to have a large space to work with and you also live in South Florida, the epicenter of tropical horticulture.

Start by using your interior views to frame your plantings.Plant in layers. Try to plant palms and companion plants that have similar water needs . Plant in islands. Leave a nice balance of positive and negative space. Use a mix of pinnate and palmate leaved palms. Too many palms with similar shaped leaves will get "lost". The "bones" of your garden should be hardy enough to look good even after a record breaking cold winter. Identify the microclimates on your property and plant accordingly.

There is really no right or wrong.It is whatever that is pleasing to you. 

[Dave-Vero]

Another factor is time.  Today's little palms and trees get big.  Today's quick-growing sun-loving feature plants eventually get shaded out.  My yard has gone from mostly grass to being largely unsuitable for it, except in front, and that was partly due to removing a big laurel oak that was only 4 feet from the house.  The replacement live oak isn't exactly growing like gangbusters, but it's getting there.

This is 10 years.  Satake palms do not grow trunks rapidly.  The tall trunks in the rear (Australian Archontophoenix and Carpentaria) grew far faster.  

[Missi]

Thanks for sharing your suggestions (please keep them coming), and Dave, your Satakentia sitting area is GORGEOUS! Wow! I will keep the suggestions in mind as I look over my property this weekend. I will admit a HUGE factor keeping me from investing more into my non-container garden (container garden is quite well invested in ) would be the fact that I'm not sure how long we'll be here. In order to get the promotion he’s been wanting, my hubby believes he'll have to take a job at one of his company's offices outside of South Florida. Neither of us want to move, but we may find it necessary in the unforeseeable future. He has more training to do and we just have to wait and see what opens up and where. However, I feel I should go ahead and invest the time and energy in making my property something I’m proud of and enjoy, rather than something that triggers A.D.D. and anxiety, which is my current situation.

I should take photos of my property and share the dimensions to get more suggestions. It really is a bandaid strip: 75' X 660' and the very back part is unusable because it is a densely wooded 75' x 200' x like 6' deep pit  that I guess the builders created to dig the dirt for the pad our house sits on, and someone else's pad as well or so we were told - after we purchased - that would cost thousands to clear and have loads and loads of fill dirt brought in (curses self and Hubby for being ignorant first-time-buyers). I really am clueless.

A little background on why I currently have planted what I have. Before I realized my true love of palms and palm companion plants, my gardening/landscaping plan was to be low-maintenance in front property ( front being south-facing/well pump-fed garden hose is a pain to reach up there but do have a sprinkler system). The back property was to be a little hobby farm, before I realized that is just way too much work for me on top of working a full time job, and the fact I’m no longer comfortable having small livestock (was going to add hoofstock) because the panthers are now regularly depredating livestock in my community during daylight hours, which would have been when I would have had the animals out of their pens grazing. All of the trees mentioned in what follows are currently of medium height, as they were planted fewer than 10 years ago (I will attempt to keep myself from thinking “What if I just started back then with a well-thought-out-palm plan?” and wanting to kick myself ).

Other main features of the back lot besides the lovely pit:
a hideous 25' x 10' chicken/turkey pen (I'm downsizing on fowl, so perhaps I can downsize the pen),
next to the pen are 2 plantings of large spineless opuntia cactus,
directly behind the pen is a fried egg flower tree,
a Hong Kong orchid tree that has got to GO,
a dwarf bottlebrush tree that could easily go,
a handful of moringa trees that I suppose could go,
a ylang ylang tree that I'm not too bonded with and could go as well,
a variegated hibiscus tiliaceus tree that I’d like to keep,
a rainbow eucalyptus (that I’d like to keep) with 2 lemon-scented eucs planted closeby for winter protection,
2 Ceiba speciosa, and 1 Bombax ceiba - all 3 with SPRAWLING canopies and all 3 I’d like to keep,
a row of exotic fruit trees (pomegranate, 3 mango cultivars, 2 avocado cultivars, carambola, Jamaican cherry, Barbados cherry, lychee, longan, sugar apple, and soursop),
some banana plants that suck at producing fruit and can go,
3 young Dypsis decaryi close by the fruit tree row,
a young Sabal mauritiiformis,
a young Copernicia baileyana.
Then there's the mess of a butterfly garden that I started a few years ago but is too much of a bother to weed and keep grass out of, all the shrubs are planted way too close together and I’d be happy to dig those up and relocate them.
2 areas of Bambusa vulgaris ‘Vittata’ - Hawaiian painted bamboo, 1 large area of Bambusa chungii - tropical blue bamboo, an area of Bambusa lako - Timor black bamboo, and an area of Bambusa vulgaris 'Wamin' true buddha belly bamboo.
Right up next to the back of the house is a large powderpuff tree that provides the shade for Monstera, a trio of Chamaedorea tepejilote (that could use more shade), and my Dypsis cabadae, among other little shade loving tropical plants.

The front situation:
I've got a couple young Livistona decipiens in front of the large clump of saw palmetto that I mentioned in my previous reply. I'm happy with their placement. They haven't started taking off yet, but they will.
The saw palmetto clump needs to be cleaned up of weeds and dead leaves. I’d actually like it completely removed, but it offers a nice privacy screen from the street.
I plopped a Phoenix canariensis and bizzie seedling I germinated years ago in the front as well.  NOT happy with their locations, and I'll need to move them soon before it's too late.
Planted 2 Livistona saribus, but the sun is just torturing them and perhaps I should just put them out of their misery,
There’s a young Copernicia baileyana up front as well,
Ceiba speciose tree,
Under the protection of 2 large slash pines, I planted 3 Hyophorbe lagenicaulis and I'm happy where they are (and they seem to be very happy as well).
However, next to them I planted "one" of those braided "money trees" given to me by my mother-in-law, which is actually several Pachira aquatica seedlings braided together. It's a cool tree by itself, but not sure if it belongs in my yard.

Welcome to my little hot mess 

EDIT to add: I think my biggest issue is thinking up pleasing plantings for extremely narrow areas, for example, I only have 10' to the property line from either side of my house. Same for on one side of my driveway. The other side of my driveway resides the septic tank, so no planting there, right?

[Missi]

@PalmatierMeg

@Palmaceae

@sonoranfans

@scottgt

ANYBODY with experience and a vision, please share your thoughts on my post above.

[Missi]

17 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

And save yourself lots of trouble by investigating and using biochar instead of cubic yards of mulch every year that just dissolves into nothing.

 

I love to heavily mulch to acidify my "soil" which is basically sugar sand and limestone marl. It helps keep the nematodes away as well. Does biochar help with either of those issues?

[sonoranfans]

2 hours ago, Missi said:

I love to heavily mulch to acidify my "soil" which is basically sugar sand and limestone marl. It helps keep the nematodes away as well. Does biochar help with either of those issues?

Many palms like the limestone, like copernicia, kentiopsis and many others.  If you want to change pH, sulfur pellets are more effective than mulch.   I have been mulching for 7 years and the only part of my yard that has enriched soil is in raised beds near the house and those had enough clay in the soil to prevent rapid loss of mulch decomposition products.    Perhaps high limestone marl will help your soil retain more water and slow mulch degradation.  I wish I had some limestone marl, lucky you.  I have to throw down garden lime(Ca Mg carbonate) every year to keep some of my palms happy.  By the way sulfur pellets are more effective in shifting pH of the soil and they also will help break up the really thick muddy stuff and help it drain better.  You will need to put down the sulfur pellets and till them in once a year.  then the bacteria break it down slowly so there is no burn.  It will take 3-5 years but you will have changed your soil quicker and for longer than using mulch.  But mulch is good for clay or heavy soils as it doesnt disappear so fast in heavy soils.

[Palmaceae]

6 hours ago, Missi said:

@PalmatierMeg

@Palmaceae

@sonoranfans

@scottgt

ANYBODY with experience and a vision, please share your thoughts on my post above.

Hello Missi,

This is how I plan my landscape, I just go out in the yard and I envision what I would like to see in a few years in the future. I think of islands, all my beds are islands in between the grassy areas I have.  All the islands "beds" fit together, meaning curves that flow from one area to another, example as the below picture shows. I think of the grass as the sea, and the islands like real islands. To enjoy your garden you need open areas to stand back and look at your collection, that is easier if you have a larger yard. It is a constant evolution also, there were areas I envisioned that did not turn out great so I changed it, so I see a garden as constant change. Sometimes I will remove a palm or tree if I find it does not fit well. I never use straight lines, I always use curves as nature is not a formal garden, it is a beautiful creation.

I hope that helps!

[Dave-Vero]

The orchid tree can definitely go.  They tend to have very weak branches.

Bamboos are not native to Hawaii, so anything marketed as Hawaiian might be popular there, but it's from somewhere else.  Nearly all bamboos sold in south Florida are clumping and fairly easy to keep in check.  Just saw old stems and break off unwanted new ones.

Lychee trees can get quite big.  Not so much in height, as in diameter.  

[Hammer]

On 7/23/2017, 1:56:01, Palmaceae said:

And here it is today,

 

Did you have the house demolished? 

[Missi]

17 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Many palms like the limestone, like copernicia, kentiopsis and many others.  If you want to change pH, sulfur pellets are more effective than mulch.   I have been mulching for 7 years and the only part of my yard that has enriched soil is in raised beds near the house and those had enough clay in the soil to prevent rapid loss of mulch decomposition products.    Perhaps high limestone marl will help your soil retain more water and slow mulch degradation.  I wish I had some limestone marl, lucky you.  I have to throw down garden lime(Ca Mg carbonate) every year to keep some of my palms happy.  By the way sulfur pellets are more effective in shifting pH of the soil and they also will help break up the really thick muddy stuff and help it drain better.  You will need to put down the sulfur pellets and till them in once a year.  then the bacteria break it down slowly so there is no burn.  It will take 3-5 years but you will have changed your soil quicker and for longer than using mulch.  But mulch is good for clay or heavy soils as it doesnt disappear so fast in heavy soils.

This is great to know! Thanks! Can I till sulfur pellets in over and around trees that are already in ground?

12 hours ago, Palmaceae said:

Hello Missi,

This is how I plan my landscape, I just go out in the yard and I envision what I would like to see in a few years in the future. I think of islands, all my beds are islands in between the grassy areas I have.  All the islands "beds" fit together, meaning curves that flow from one area to another, example as the below picture shows. I think of the grass as the sea, and the islands like real islands. To enjoy your garden you need open areas to stand back and look at your collection, that is easier if you have a larger yard. It is a constant evolution also, there were areas I envisioned that did not turn out great so I changed it, so I see a garden as constant change. Sometimes I will remove a palm or tree if I find it does not fit well. I never use straight lines, I always use curves as nature is not a formal garden, it is a beautiful creation.

I hope that helps!

That is just beautiful. How do you keep the grass/weeds out of your mulched areas?! My grass is out of control and engulfs previously cleared and mulched areas.

7 hours ago, Dave-Vero said:

The orchid tree can definitely go.  They tend to have very weak branches.

Bamboos are not native to Hawaii, so anything marketed as Hawaiian might be popular there, but it's from somewhere else.  Nearly all bamboos sold in south Florida are clumping and fairly easy to keep in check.  Just saw old stems and break off unwanted new ones.

Lychee trees can get quite big.  Not so much in height, as in diameter.  

Oh yes! I make sure all my bamboo species are clumpers, not runners. 

[Palmaceae]

17 hours ago, Hammer said:

Did you have the house demolished? 

 No it is in there somewhere!

[Palmaceae]

10 hours ago, Missi said:

This is great to know! Thanks! Can I till sulfur pellets in over and around trees that are already in ground?

That is just beautiful. How do you keep the grass/weeds out of your mulched areas?! My grass is out of control and engulfs previously cleared and mulched areas.

Oh yes! I make sure all my bamboo species are clumpers, not runners. 

Missi,

I keep the beds heavily mulched and a lot of roundup and hand weeding.

[sonoranfans]

Missi,

Yes tilling in the sulfur pellets works for already planted and established palms.  You only need to till in a couple inches, bacteria and water takes care of the rest.  try to envision what things will look like when they grow up.  Its hard to envision the size and shading of palms when they are small, almost everyone underestimates their eventual size/effect.  My garden encompasses the house, surrounds it.  In some areas the walkway is the only non planted area.  Here is a pic of the backyard from the screened in porch.  When I sit outside, Im "in" the garden when i'm on the porch.  Its hard to take pictures when you are in it.  The front and west facing "savannah" areas is more open but has the big fan palms that really shouldnt be planted in bunches.  the back sheltered area permits a zone stretch to 10, palm in the savannah are 9A/9B palms.  This arrangement was heavily influenced by the dec 2010 cold event.

[Missi]

On 7/29/2017, 11:49:21, sonoranfans said:

Missi,

Yes tilling in the sulfur pellets works for already planted and established palms.  You only need to till in a couple inches, bacteria and water takes care of the rest.  try to envision what things will look like when they grow up.  Its hard to envision the size and shading of palms when they are small, almost everyone underestimates their eventual size/effect.  My garden encompasses the house, surrounds it.  In some areas the walkway is the only non planted area.  Here is a pic of the backyard from the screened in porch.  When I sit outside, Im "in" the garden when i'm on the porch.  Its hard to take pictures when you are in it.  The front and west facing "savannah" areas is more open but has the big fan palms that really shouldnt be planted in bunches.  the back sheltered area permits a zone stretch to 10, palm in the savannah are 9A/9B palms.  This arrangement was heavily influenced by the dec 2010 cold event.

I love the look of this. It's like a cleaned-up jungle! Will you add anything around the palms or keep it simple? My problem is that I love so many different kinds of tropical plants, but palms are definitely my favorite. Over this past weekend (took advantage of the clouds covering the sun) I dug up several of my tropical shrubs and smaller trees around my property to make room for more sightly gardens that I can showcase palms in. I'm having a hard time tossing the shrubs into the compost heap, but I must keep my goal in mind and they do not really have a place in my new plan, and/or would clutter it up again