Washingtonia Filibustas/Robustas: When fronds burn annually

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Washingtonia Filibustas and Robustas aren't common here. There are probably a hundred or so spread across the Columbia area if I had to guess. I've kept my eye on dozens of them over the last several years and I've noticed they've always had noticeable burn during those years. During the extreme cold years where we dipped into the low teens and ultimately down to 10 degrees, the fronds are all burnt to a crisp and of course by late summer, all of these fronds are replaced. My question is this: Do these washingtonias grow faster when their fronds are burned every year by burn? Or do they grow at the same pace they normally would had they not been burned?

My theory used to be that they grew faster, since the palm senses it's near death experience and pushes out growth as quickly as it can (therefore growing vertical more quickly). But now I theorize that they grow slower, since the nutrients and energy it takes to replace these fronds saps the tree of vertical growth and grows at a slower pace. What do ya'll think?

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My outdoor washies seem to grow about the same pace as the ones I brought inside for the winter. 

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My "fillabusta" puts on overall height noticeably slower after a winter when it gets defoliated.  However, it is still in the establishment phase and the bit of trunk it has hasn't reached its full diameter yet.  At this size it really only seems to hold a completely full crown the summer after a winter when it doesn't get defoliated.  

WP_20161007_026.thumb.jpg.23a25f77b662dd

  

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They grow faster when they dont burn. Cold years mine put on 3' of trunk, the warm winters they managed 4+'.

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23 hours ago, Joe NC said:

My "fillabusta" puts on overall height noticeably slower after a winter when it gets defoliated.  However, it is still in the establishment phase and the bit of trunk it has hasn't reached its full diameter yet.  At this size it really only seems to hold a completely full crown the summer after a winter when it doesn't get defoliated.  

WP_20161007_026.thumb.jpg.23a25f77b662dd

  

One of the most beautiful crowns I have seen!

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On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2017‎ ‎11‎:‎17‎:‎24‎, Joe NC said:

My "fillabusta" puts on overall height noticeably slower after a winter when it gets defoliated.  However, it is still in the establishment phase and the bit of trunk it has hasn't reached its full diameter yet.  At this size it really only seems to hold a completely full crown the summer after a winter when it doesn't get defoliated.  

WP_20161007_026.thumb.jpg.23a25f77b662dd

  

Thanks for the insight. And where are you in NC!? That's a rather large filibusta. How long have you had it in ground? Protection? Whats the lowest temperature it's seen?

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2017‎ ‎9‎:‎51‎:‎56‎, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

They grow faster when they dont burn. Cold years mine put on 3' of trunk, the warm winters they managed 4+'.

Makes sense; this is some of the information I was looking for. Thanks for the insight.

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21 minutes ago, smithgn said:

Thanks for the insight. And where are you in NC!? That's a rather large filibusta. How long have you had it in ground? Protection? Whats the lowest temperature it's seen?

In Wilmington, so there are a handful of other Washingtonia that survive unprotected around town.  It seems to be a combination of genetics and micro-climate that keep them here.  I've had this one since summer 2008 when it was just pushing it's first fan leaves.  I accidentally froze it and the other one that I had that first winter when I let them see 15 degrees in a 1 gallon pot.  I assumed all was lost and left them both outside for the rest of the season.  This one pulled through (to my then amazement) and was regrowing that spring.  I kept it on my patio for years in a large pot and just pushed it up against the house for the winter for protection.  It usually didn't get too much burn this way, but was obviously way stunted in size from being stuck in a pot so I planted it.  I did wrap it and give it christmas lights for the first two winters in the ground just to help it establish, but now it is too huge to mess with that.  Last winter it saw 16 unprotected and some freezing rain/snow that angered even my Trachycarpus.  It lost most if its fronds, but retained the unopened spears and the innermost 4 or 5 with varying amounts of damage.  I can snap a photo of it's current less than glorious state.

dtrobusta.thumb.jpg.f0c4ac9bc7ebb5581a43

This one is the tallest Washingtonia I have found Wilmington, it's downtown in a solid micro-climate next to a parking lot and building, and it looks like a pure-ish robusta.  I stole the pic from google.   

 

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On 7/2/2017, 12:36:56, smithgn said:

Washingtonia Filibustas and Robustas aren't common here. There are probably a hundred or so spread across the Columbia area if I had to guess. I've kept my eye on dozens of them over the last several years and I've noticed they've always had noticeable burn during those years. During the extreme cold years where we dipped into the low teens and ultimately down to 10 degrees, the fronds are all burnt to a crisp and of course by late summer, all of these fronds are replaced. My question is this: Do these washingtonias grow faster when their fronds are burned every year by burn? Or do they grow at the same pace they normally would had they not been burned?

My theory used to be that they grew faster, since the palm senses it's near death experience and pushes out growth as quickly as it can (therefore growing vertical more quickly). But now I theorize that they grow slower, since the nutrients and energy it takes to replace these fronds saps the tree of vertical growth and grows at a slower pace. What do ya'll think?

I suspect that the burning of leaves leads to slower growth.  With no leaf area there is little or no photosynthesis, and we know photosynthesis is required to generate growth.  My observations is that those that are burned or heavily overtrimmed grow notably slower.  This is why I do not trim green leaves from a palm wihtout a compelling reason.

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On 7/5/2017, 7:17:48, Joe NC said:

In Wilmington, so there are a handful of other Washingtonia that survive unprotected around town.  It seems to be a combination of genetics and micro-climate that keep them here.  I've had this one since summer 2008 when it was just pushing it's first fan leaves.  I accidentally froze it and the other one that I had that first winter when I let them see 15 degrees in a 1 gallon pot.  I assumed all was lost and left them both outside for the rest of the season.  This one pulled through (to my then amazement) and was regrowing that spring.  I kept it on my patio for years in a large pot and just pushed it up against the house for the winter for protection.  It usually didn't get too much burn this way, but was obviously way stunted in size from being stuck in a pot so I planted it.  I did wrap it and give it christmas lights for the first two winters in the ground just to help it establish, but now it is too huge to mess with that.  Last winter it saw 16 unprotected and some freezing rain/snow that angered even my Trachycarpus.  It lost most if its fronds, but retained the unopened spears and the innermost 4 or 5 with varying amounts of damage.  I can snap a photo of it's current less than glorious state.

dtrobusta.thumb.jpg.f0c4ac9bc7ebb5581a43

This one is the tallest Washingtonia I have found Wilmington, it's downtown in a solid micro-climate next to a parking lot and building, and it looks like a pure-ish robusta.  I stole the pic from google.   

 

Wait, that one in the picture was planted small in 2008? 

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I have a W. Robusta planted here in Virginia (7a/7b) close to my house, I am going to give it heat every winter, but it just now got set (not established fully) and is starting to spit out fronds like crazy! I bought it with a 4 foot trunk, I can't wait to see how big it gets. 

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Ive seen washie robustas go from 3' to 35' tall in 5 years in arizona if they get regular water.  Ive seen fillifera go from the same 3' to 25' in the same time.  These are very fast palms in the desert heat and faster with regular water(drip lines are very common in AZ).  once established, the filifera will survive on arizona desert rain(8" a year), but the robusta cant survive without irrigation there.  I have seen the fillibusta hybrid do very well in tampa area, nice thick crowns and 2'+ thick trunks(without leaf bases).  If you live in the east the fillibusta is a great performer.  Robustas get so tall they will outgrow your residential landscape.  They can get to 80' overall at which point the crown looks tiny from the ground.  I have seen them really slow growthwise  in arizona from the "cheapo" hurricane cut.  A hurricane cut is known to prevent trimming frequency by slowing the production of fronds.  Cities in arizona use the hurricane cut to make the landscaping bill smaller.  the most impressive filliferas carry a nice skirt of dead leaves in addition to the green ones.  I have seen dead skirts tha cover 15' of trunk, looks amazing with a nice grey-green crown on top. 

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17 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Wait, that one in the picture was planted small in 2008? 

Haha, sorry I wasn't clear on that.  The first pic of the palm planted in the grass is mine, and it was small in 2008.  The second photo is just the biggest one in town here that survives and is doing well with being defoliated most winters.  I'm going to guess it is the tallest Washingtonia in NC?  In 2007 when I first saw that palm it was already over the height of the roof of that shorter building.  I have no idea when it was planted, but it does put on a decent amount of height each year.  That pic was snagged from street view in Google and has been there the entire time series available. 

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On 7/9/2017, 4:19:38, Joe NC said:

Haha, sorry I wasn't clear on that.  The first pic of the palm planted in the grass is mine, and it was small in 2008.  The second photo is just the biggest one in town here that survives and is doing well with being defoliated most winters.  I'm going to guess it is the tallest Washingtonia in NC?  In 2007 when I first saw that palm it was already over the height of the roof of that shorter building.  I have no idea when it was planted, but it does put on a decent amount of height each year.  That pic was snagged from street view in Google and has been there the entire time series available. 

Ah, I was about to say, that went fast.

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Posted (edited)

On 7/5/2017, 7:17:48, Joe NC said:

In Wilmington, so there are a handful of other Washingtonia that survive unprotected around town.  It seems to be a combination of genetics and micro-climate that keep them here.  I've had this one since summer 2008 when it was just pushing it's first fan leaves.  I accidentally froze it and the other one that I had that first winter when I let them see 15 degrees in a 1 gallon pot.  I assumed all was lost and left them both outside for the rest of the season.  This one pulled through (to my then amazement) and was regrowing that spring.  I kept it on my patio for years in a large pot and just pushed it up against the house for the winter for protection.  It usually didn't get too much burn this way, but was obviously way stunted in size from being stuck in a pot so I planted it.  I did wrap it and give it christmas lights for the first two winters in the ground just to help it establish, but now it is too huge to mess with that.  Last winter it saw 16 unprotected and some freezing rain/snow that angered even my Trachycarpus.  It lost most if its fronds, but retained the unopened spears and the innermost 4 or 5 with varying amounts of damage.  I can snap a photo of it's current less than glorious state.

dtrobusta.thumb.jpg.f0c4ac9bc7ebb5581a43

This one is the tallest Washingtonia I have found Wilmington, it's downtown in a solid micro-climate next to a parking lot and building, and it looks like a pure-ish robusta.  I stole the pic from google.   


 

I remember stumbling across a Washingtonia when I was in Wilmington last February.  It was burnt almost to a crisp.  It looked so out of place I remember taking a photo of it, which I just found.  It is down by the waterfront in someone's back yard.  I forgot to check it out in June when I was in town to see the recovery rate.

uARFtXk.jpg

 

There is another good sized one on Market Street at Sahara Pitas and Subs.  I remember driving past it and I did a double-take.

 

nidTBZT.jpg

 

Funny thing is I think Washingtonia's are one of the ugliest varieties of palms out there, but their growth rates and ability to recover are practically unmatched and fascinating.  It's not fair to me that Washingtonia's and Canary Island Date Palm's are both Zone 8b palms.  Washingtonia's can survive in Wilmington because they recover from defoliation so quickly, but CIDP's can't survive there for any length of time because of their slow growth rates.  It seems if they get defoliated back-to-back winters they just can't summon the strength to recover.  Washingtonia's are clearly Zone 8a hardy if you get them established.  Beautiful, majestic CIDP's...not so much....they are what I really want to grow.

Edited by Anthony_B
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Robusta are NOT 8A hardy. I fully expect once mine puts on another 6-8' and gets over to top of the house for full expose to northerly winds that it will die as did virtually all of the 20'+ robusta did here in 2011. Right now it currently has 15' of trunk. 

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On 8/3/2017, 11:33:38, Anthony_B said:

I remember stumbling across a Washingtonia when I was in Wilmington last February.  It was burnt almost to a crisp.  It looked so out of place I remember taking a photo of it, which I just found.  It is down by the waterfront in someone's back yard.  I forgot to check it out in June when I was in town to see the recovery rate.

uARFtXk.jpg

 

There is another good sized one on Market Street at Sahara Pitas and Subs.  I remember driving past it and I did a double-take.

 

nidTBZT.jpg

 

Funny thing is I think Washingtonia's are one of the ugliest varieties of palms out there, but their growth rates and ability to recover are practically unmatched and fascinating.  It's not fair to me that Washingtonia's and Canary Island Date Palm's are both Zone 8b palms.  Washingtonia's can survive in Wilmington because they recover from defoliation so quickly, but CIDP's can't survive there for any length of time because of their slow growth rates.  It seems if they get defoliated back-to-back winters they just can't summon the strength to recover.  Washingtonia's are clearly Zone 8a hardy if you get them established.  Beautiful, majestic CIDP's...not so much....they are what I really want to grow.

I think you hit the nail on the head as far as CIDP's compared to Robustas. It seems if you want to grow a borderline palm, make sure it's growth rate is high so that it can recover quickly. 

On 8/4/2017, 1:27:21, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Robusta are NOT 8A hardy. I fully expect once mine puts on another 6-8' and gets over to top of the house for full expose to northerly winds that it will die as did virtually all of the 20'+ robusta did here in 2011. Right now it currently has 15' of trunk. 

There certainly are some anomalies, but I'd agree Washingtonia Robustas are not 8A palms. Although, there are a dozen or so that I know of that survived our 10 degree low with ice and 20 hours or so below freezing in downtown Columbia. Although, downtown Columbia is probably a borderline 8B zone. Not a long termer in the cooler suburbs.

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Posted (edited)

 

Quote

Robusta are NOT 8A hardy. I fully expect once mine puts on another 6-8' and gets over to top of the house for full expose to northerly winds that it will die as did virtually all of the 20'+ robusta did here in 2011. Right now it currently has 15' of trunk.

 

These two I attached might be Filifera's.  I honestly can't tell.  They're a little tougher, so maybe that's why the two I've stumbled across in Wilmington have survived.

You can say they're not 8A hardy, but here they are, surviving.  Just punch in the coordinates for yourself: (34.257701, -77.837825)

No north wind protection, there.  It is in the dead center of town, as "continental" as Wilmington gets.  No convenient water protection.  Maybe it's an oddly tough Washingtonia and one of the cold hardiest individuals, but this big old tree has been here for quite some time and it stands just fine.  Like I said, I did a double-take when I drove past and made a mental note of the nearest intersection so I could do a "Google Maps History" of its life.  The Street View history is compelling - it's a little guy in 2007, and you can watch it grow up, including the terrible February 2015 freeze that hit the entire east coast.  You can see how defoliated it got.  I'll never forget February 2015 - I woke up to -2F for 3 days straight and I had to start my car in 2nd gear, I couldn't shift from 1-2 til it warmed up.

Just as interesting is the lone CIDP that lives around Southport.  That deserves a post on its own, and it's what gives me hope that I can cultivate one.  Somehow it survived 2015 where Wilmington fell to 13F.

Edited by Anthony_B
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One special tree that managed to survive doesn't make the species hardy at that zone. I live in 8a/8b and robusta isn't hardy here. Thousands were killed here in 2011 and yes a few survivors pulled through but when 95+% die i don't consider that hardy.  Quite a few robusta and filbustra died this winter as well. 

Additionally i know of zero trunking cidp that died in 2011.  The only cidp i have seen die here were smaller plants that were less than 2.5' diameter at the base.  This year at 13-14f burned all of them in the area but didnt kill any. 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

One special tree that managed to survive doesn't make the species hardy at that zone. I live in 8a/8b and robusta isn't hardy here. Thousands were killed here in 2011 and yes a few survivors pulled through but when 95+% die i don't consider that hardy.  Quite a few robusta and filbustra died this winter as well. 

Additionally i know of zero trunking cidp that died in 2011.  The only cidp i have seen die here were smaller plants that were less than 2.5' diameter at the base.  This year at 13-14f burned all of them in the area but didnt kill any. 

3 Washingtonians live in Wilmington that I am aware of - the 2 I posted and the one another user posted.  They may be filiferas.  Again, I can't tell the difference.  There may be more.  I'd try and grow one but I find them unattractive.  Maybe they'll grow on me.

 

I've never seen a CIDP in Wilmington.  I ordered some Cretan seeds to try and grow, I've heard they're slightly hardier.  I wish...love the look so much.

Edited by Anthony_B
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14 hours ago, Anthony_B said:

3 Washingtonians live in Wilmington that I am aware of - the 2 I posted and the one another user posted.  They may be filiferas.  Again, I can't tell the difference.  There may be more.  I'd try and grow one but I find them unattractive.  Maybe they'll grow on me.

 

I've never seen a CIDP in Wilmington.  I ordered some Cretan seeds to try and grow, I've heard they're slightly hardier.  I wish...love the look so much.

There are a handful of larger trunked Washingtonia in Wilmington.  If you count the beaches, then there are dozens with trunks over ten feet for sure.  It seems that the only ones that survive to put on any trunk with the often defoliation are "fillabusta" for sure (or at least really look like it to me).  The one in front of Sahara really looks like a hybrid, but the super tall skinny one downtown does look pure robusta-ish.  

There is at least one pure fillifera that has been here for at least a decade at what is now Fitness Tree Service on Carolina Beach Road.

fitnessfilifera.thumb.jpg.9ba4c52cafcf44  

There are a handful of CIDP that have been around, that suffer defoliation but survive.  They are all trunk-less.  Used to be a decent one in the hooters parking lot(haha), until they probably chopped it out for being a spiny monster sometime in 2014 I think.  Still one in the Checkers on Dawson St. and one at the Yadkin Bank building on Military Cutoff that have been there for ~10 years surviving winter frond loss. 

A large trunked CIDP is in Southport NC, down the river from Wilmington.  It is at a nursery that has since gone out of business.  Use the time slider in google and you can see how it gets defoliated but survives. 

 https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9601758,-78.0301819,3a,45y,83.09h,94.52t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1ssRqqHdzDsT6J-w4UsPhkvQ!2e0!5s20170101T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en 

 

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9 hours ago, Joe NC said:

There are a handful of larger trunked Washingtonia in Wilmington.  If you count the beaches, then there are dozens with trunks over ten feet for sure.  It seems that the only ones that survive to put on any trunk with the often defoliation are "fillabusta" for sure (or at least really look like it to me).  The one in front of Sahara really looks like a hybrid, but the super tall skinny one downtown does look pure robusta-ish.  

There is at least one pure fillifera that has been here for at least a decade at what is now Fitness Tree Service on Carolina Beach Road.

fitnessfilifera.thumb.jpg.9ba4c52cafcf44  

There are a handful of CIDP that have been around, that suffer defoliation but survive.  They are all trunk-less.  Used to be a decent one in the hooters parking lot(haha), until they probably chopped it out for being a spiny monster sometime in 2014 I think.  Still one in the Checkers on Dawson St. and one at the Yadkin Bank building on Military Cutoff that have been there for ~10 years surviving winter frond loss. 

A large trunked CIDP is in Southport NC, down the river from Wilmington.  It is at a nursery that has since gone out of business.  Use the time slider in google and you can see how it gets defoliated but survives. 

 https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9601758,-78.0301819,3a,45y,83.09h,94.52t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1ssRqqHdzDsT6J-w4UsPhkvQ!2e0!5s20170101T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en 

 

That is exactly the CIDP that I referenced above "that deserves a post on its own."  That is the only one I've seen in the area.  It got hammered in 2015.  When I drove through last February, it was burnt to a crisp as well.  I hope it has since recovered.  With CIDP's it seems to be the back-to-back defoliation that wipes them out.  This kind of stuff breaks my heart.

 

http://www.garysnursery.com/Phoenix.html

 

If there are other CIDP's in Wilmington I'd love to know.  I'll be there soon.

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On 7/5/2017, 4:17:48, Joe NC said:

In Wilmington, so there are a handful of other Washingtonia that survive unprotected around town.  It seems to be a combination of genetics and micro-climate that keep them here.  I've had this one since summer 2008 when it was just pushing it's first fan leaves.  I accidentally froze it and the other one that I had that first winter when I let them see 15 degrees in a 1 gallon pot.  I assumed all was lost and left them both outside for the rest of the season.  This one pulled through (to my then amazement) and was regrowing that spring.  I kept it on my patio for years in a large pot and just pushed it up against the house for the winter for protection.  It usually didn't get too much burn this way, but was obviously way stunted in size from being stuck in a pot so I planted it.  I did wrap it and give it christmas lights for the first two winters in the ground just to help it establish, but now it is too huge to mess with that.  Last winter it saw 16 unprotected and some freezing rain/snow that angered even my Trachycarpus.  It lost most if its fronds, but retained the unopened spears and the innermost 4 or 5 with varying amounts of damage.  I can snap a photo of it's current less than glorious state.

dtrobusta.thumb.jpg.f0c4ac9bc7ebb5581a43

This one is the tallest Washingtonia I have found Wilmington, it's downtown in a solid micro-climate next to a parking lot and building, and it looks like a pure-ish robusta.  I stole the pic from google.   

 

nice!!

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On 8/10/2017, 11:23:39, Anthony_B said:

That is exactly the CIDP that I referenced above "that deserves a post on its own."  That is the only one I've seen in the area.  It got hammered in 2015.  When I drove through last February, it was burnt to a crisp as well.  I hope it has since recovered.  With CIDP's it seems to be the back-to-back defoliation that wipes them out.  This kind of stuff breaks my heart.

 

http://www.garysnursery.com/Phoenix.html

 

If there are other CIDP's in Wilmington I'd love to know.  I'll be there soon.

Does anyone know where these CIDP's are in Myrtle Beach? I'll be down there for a bachelor party in a few weeks and might try to swing by and see if they are still there. 

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Posted (edited)

On 8/16/2017, 3:36:36, smithgn said:

Does anyone know where these CIDP's are in Myrtle Beach? I'll be down there for a bachelor party in a few weeks and might try to swing by and see if they are still there. 

I don't know where those are specifically, but there are a couple in this guy's front yard.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7341137,-78.827952,3a,45.5y,325.78h,86.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stKHryZtFZCKRTHFuAuEsdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

According to Street View, they've been there since before 2008 and have never even been burnt by cold.  That is stunning.  They must be very well-protected in a nice micro-climate or something.  He is only about 55 miles southwest of where I'll be and it gives me real hope.

Edited by Anthony_B
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Posted (edited)

On 8/10/2017, 1:53:05, Joe NC said:

There are a handful of larger trunked Washingtonia in Wilmington.  If you count the beaches, then there are dozens with trunks over ten feet for sure.  It seems that the only ones that survive to put on any trunk with the often defoliation are "fillabusta" for sure (or at least really look like it to me).  The one in front of Sahara really looks like a hybrid, but the super tall skinny one downtown does look pure robusta-ish.  

There is at least one pure fillifera that has been here for at least a decade at what is now Fitness Tree Service on Carolina Beach Road.

I was pretty bored last night and was checking out some sights on Street View.  There are probably hundreds of Washingtonia's all over the beaches.  There are four big ones in this view alone (look behind you for the monster).

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0422091,-77.889816,3a,75y,312.8h,93.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skUiJhwIyQutJP-pinl28rw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

The beaches are all Zone 8a.  The Filifera and "Filibusta" are clearly 8a hardy on the East Coast in a place like Wilmington and its beaches (I bet they'd struggle or wouldn't make it on the OBX beaches, though, which are technically 8b!).  They may not make it 100% of the time, but neither do sabal palmetto's and minors and they're native to the area.  They have a very high success rate.  I also found a CIDP on Ocean Isle Beach.  It's a beauty.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8958634,-78.4274048,3a,75y,2.89h,86.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEKcNg7IYxkh7IyRSmWmQ8Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

The people on that block have incredible landscaping.  There's a second smaller CIDP 4 homes down further right, too.

 

 

Edited by Anthony_B
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Your success with a canary island date palm is likely going to be microclimate. If you had a row of tall cypresses or a few dense pines against the house and the canary island date palm on the south sunny side of the house that is sheltered from northern winter winds your CIDP tree would probably come back but you'll need some summer heat 90+ F for several months to have some good solid growth and usually by November the canopy would be mostly full if it wasn't burnt to a crisp the previous winter. There are lots of people experimenting with CIDP in areas out west like in towns like Las Cruces, NM which is definitely 8a and sees some incredible cold snaps sometimes -5 F and they do recover. A set of CIDPs survived -19 F for a brief spell then it only recovered into the teens the next day. I have an image of the two older ones in town in Alamogordo and the snapshot of the temps seen during the "big freeze" in 2011. The canopies were totally burnt again in 2013. In El Paso it's borderline 8a/8b and they seem to have snaps that burn the fronds every couple of years or so. They are very resilient trees and they need a little care but probably the biggest killer is soggy wet, then ice storm winters. These super wet soakings then a super hard freeze right after is going to be a palm buster.

There's also a good youtube video done about the palm damage after the big freeze of -5 in Las Cruces: 

it's a different climate but likely your success depends on how wet the ground is during the winter and putting the palms in "drought mode" which I'm not sure if it's possible where you are but if you did then it would likely have a better long term survival rate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81fxNatT2lQ

muy frio.jpg

they are still there.jpg

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On 8/30/2017, 4:42:31, tfinvold said:

Your success with a canary island date palm is likely going to be microclimate. If you had a row of tall cypresses or a few dense pines against the house and the canary island date palm on the south sunny side of the house that is sheltered from northern winter winds your CIDP tree would probably come back but you'll need some summer heat 90+ F for several months to have some good solid growth and usually by November the canopy would be mostly full if it wasn't burnt to a crisp the previous winter. There are lots of people experimenting with CIDP in areas out west like in towns like Las Cruces, NM which is definitely 8a and sees some incredible cold snaps sometimes -5 F and they do recover. A set of CIDPs survived -19 F for a brief spell then it only recovered into the teens the next day. I have an image of the two older ones in town in Alamogordo and the snapshot of the temps seen during the "big freeze" in 2011. The canopies were totally burnt again in 2013. In El Paso it's borderline 8a/8b and they seem to have snaps that burn the fronds every couple of years or so. They are very resilient trees and they need a little care but probably the biggest killer is soggy wet, then ice storm winters. These super wet soakings then a super hard freeze right after is going to be a palm buster.

There's also a good youtube video done about the palm damage after the big freeze of -5 in Las Cruces: 

it's a different climate but likely your success depends on how wet the ground is during the winter and putting the palms in "drought mode" which I'm not sure if it's possible where you are but if you did then it would likely have a better long term survival rate.

 

I know it will be a challenge, but there are quite a few of them surviving in 8a's on the south facing beaches.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9134307,-78.2952433,3a,75y,92.56h,84.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syEQSzuWTk2PTG2SgB3BeFw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

It may be a little tougher in Winnabow where I am headed, but I'll give it a shot.  I will just have to design my own strategic microclimate.  This guy won't get planted til I buy a house, which will take at least a year or two. I have plenty of time to plan.  In the meantime, I ordered 8 Cretan Date Palms I have had sitting in a wet paper towel in a plastic bag for the past week and a half.  In 2 years, they should be a decent size.  If I can't get the CIDP to work, these are supposed to be a little hardier.  Greece actually gets cold and it can get wet in the winter.  The Canary Islands are much warmer and drier.

Edited by Anthony_B
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On 8/23/2017, 12:49:29, Anthony_B said:

I don't know where those are specifically, but there are a couple in this guy's front yard.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7341137,-78.827952,3a,45.5y,325.78h,86.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stKHryZtFZCKRTHFuAuEsdQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

According to Street View, they've been there since before 2008 and have never even been burnt by cold.  That is stunning.  They must be very well-protected in a nice micro-climate or something.  He is only about 55 miles southwest of where I'll be and it gives me real hope.

After driving around a good bit in Myrtle beach, North Myrtle Beach and just across the border into North Carolina, CIDP's aren't nonexistent/rare. They aren't widely planted but they do survive in these areas. Pretty impressive. That's why generally they say CIDP's are hardy to 8B zones.

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2 hours ago, smithgn said:

After driving around a good bit in Myrtle beach, North Myrtle Beach and just across the border into North Carolina, CIDP's aren't nonexistent/rare. They aren't widely planted but they do survive in these areas. Pretty impressive. That's why generally they say CIDP's are hardy to 8B zones.

Some of it may have to do with availability.  I've searched online at all the nurseries in Wilmington to Myrtle Beach.  None of them sell CIDP's.  You have to reach Charleston before anyone bothers selling them.  It takes a serious commitment to drive 3 hours each way to Charleston and back for a tree, and if you don't have a pick-up truck it's darn near impossible to get anything of a decent size unless you want to pay through the nose for delivery.

 

I'm guessing only the enthusiasts bother trying.  I mean, why spend hundreds of additional dollars and an entire day's worth of effort to plant something that will probably get killed?  Normal people don't do that.  I mean, just look at this guy's beautiful specimen in Ocean Isle Beach, NC.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8958634,-78.4274048,3a,59.5y,4.38h,84.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEKcNg7IYxkh7IyRSmWmQ8Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

The Google camera literally caught him tending to his CIDP.  He's clearly a palm nut!

Edited by Anthony_B
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10 hours ago, Anthony_B said:

Some of it may have to do with availability.  I've searched online at all the nurseries in Wilmington to Myrtle Beach.  None of them sell CIDP's.  You have to reach Charleston before anyone bothers selling them.  It takes a serious commitment to drive 3 hours each way to Charleston and back for a tree, and if you don't have a pick-up truck it's darn near impossible to get anything of a decent size unless you want to pay through the nose for delivery.

Maybe 5 or 6 years ago pretty much all the big box stores had a much larger selection of palms in Wilmington.  Including some trunked Washingtonia and assorted 3 gallon dates (CIDP and sylvestris).  There were queens, pygmy dates and other things that didn't really stand a chance.  Then we had a couple of brutal winters, and everything marginal got toasted.  There seems to be a general trend towards a dislike for palms in the local (non-beach) landscaping, with people feeling that "they don't belong here" and would rather plant a crape myrtle or a knockout rose (despite neither roses or crapes "belonging" here and having two species of native Sabal).  I think part of it comes from many of the marginal and not established palms getting damaged or killed in the winter, and part is from the mass amount of people moving here from non palmy places and just wanting to plant things they are used to.  

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I guess it just depends on the area. Some areas 

On 8/31/2017, 3:12:20, Anthony_B said:

I know it will be a challenge, but there are quite a few of them surviving in 8a's on the south facing beaches.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9134307,-78.2952433,3a,75y,92.56h,84.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syEQSzuWTk2PTG2SgB3BeFw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

It may be a little tougher in Winnabow where I am headed, but I'll give it a shot.  I will just have to design my own strategic microclimate.  This guy won't get planted til I buy a house, which will take at least a year or two. I have plenty of time to plan.  In the meantime, I ordered 8 Cretan Date Palms I have had sitting in a wet paper towel in a plastic bag for the past week and a half.  In 2 years, they should be a decent size.  If I can't get the CIDP to work, these are supposed to be a little hardier.  Greece actually gets cold and it can get wet in the winter.  The Canary Islands are much warmer and drier.

Here's an image of an example house which has the CIDP on a south facing spot pretty close the house maybe 5 feet from the foundation and wall. Might be worth a try as the closer it is to the house the better chance of long term survival.

protected sight.jpg

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Hi - new member here from UK 

Amongst various palms both indoors and outdoors, I have collected a few Washingtonia's and CIDP.  I've grown CIDP for quite a few years with very little problem at all but am still more cautious about the Washingtonia which I only started keeping in the last couple of years.  We have very much a maritime climate from the Atlantic and quite a few winters can actually produce colder snaps of weather in parts of the Mediterranean where CIDP are obviously much more prolific generally - especially in public places and general landscaping away from just individual gardens. 

But palm keeping is definitely going from strength to strength over here, particularly in the south of the country where it is generally warmer - and here in the south east, drier than other parts of the UK. Relatively speaking anyway. 

The last properly cold weather was March 2013 and before that the winters of 09/10 and the first half of winter 2010 were particularly colder than usual.  I lost one CIDP in 2010, planted in a way too exposed a situation facing the north and east (lesson learned) but the remaining CIDP palms, and all my other oudoor palms which include the very hardy European fan palm, a couple of small Hesper palms, and a Chusan palm all sailed through all the cold weather in each of those winters with little, if in some cases no protection. Basically because they were placed close to the building and sheltered from the coldest winds.  Pots, for mobility, are most handy when it comes to changing weather types and changing seasons.

So I agree microclimate is an essential point  - and its not too difficult to create your own in the home garden with all kinds of props as well as knowing the obvious about where it is sunniest, warmest and most protected on the one hand, and coldest windiest and shadiest on the other.   The frequency of rainfall is a factor in this respect as well and the combination of wet, and then sudden cold needs to be watched out for. But in this country, excepting the few colder winters we get, the weather patterns move fast from the Atlantic and cold snaps tend to be brief plus living close to the coast the maritime influences are a moderating factor anyway.

CIDP, amongst others, are now sold pretty much everywhere and seen a lot in gardens and parks around here. Canary dates are fine with the wind as a whole, except the strongest Atlantic winter storms, but the ones most exposed to the sea on the seafront, if they are not sheltered tend to burn and frazzle with the combination of persistently strong winds laden with salt and strong sunshine between the rain bands. 

Washingtonia are becoming more increasingly available in the UK. The main challenges here are first, the windy conditions of a coastal climate, and two, obviously the cold and wet in winter. Back in June when it was hot weather,  I found juvenile W palms being sold as "summer foliage" in a local supermarket for less than £5. Pretty much a bargain, so I scooped up at least four!. They have done really well back at home and grown fast ahead of the coming winter before I think of how to protect them - though the wind has already broken a frond or so on a couple of them.

Away from unreliable supermarkets (if you don't know what you are buying and about care for the plant) the more serious growers are thinking about Washintonia now as well - ahead of the really pretty but even less hardy Pygmy dates which are also seen as "outdoor tropical plants", but from my experience cannot tolerate anything freezing, despite what is claimed.

I have a Pygmy date palm I unexpectedly saw and bought in a garden centre in Germany in 2012 and it looked so classically "tropical island" it came back from the visit in the car with me. Not often I impulse buy (at least with plants anyway!) and think of the care afterwards - but couldn't pass it up. It came indoors the first winter which was quite cold and did quite ok (though hated any direct sun) ..but then fast forward in 15/16, which was especially warm and frost free, I left it out and then got caught by the only frosts of the whole "winter" which happened late March/early April.

It had actually thrived and kept growing all winter outside  - and then got burnt up in Spring. What a dummy! For a few months after that I was basically looking at something of a stump and thought it might die, *but a bit of extra TLC and some lighter sandier compost later* there was fresh growth from the centre, albeit rather anaemic. Its come back much better since, but the growth continues to be paler green and weaker than it should be. It spent the summer outdoors as usual (in dappled shade) but this September has been much cooler and wetter than usual so it has had to come back indoors much earlier than usual to avoid stressing the roots and the plant any further. These are beautiful palm trees, and in an ideal world I would love to keep more of them,but definitely the biggest challenge I have had with any palm so far

Anyway, that's more than enough from me in this write-up I think.

 

 

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