humic acid additives to soil...experiences?

[Gonzer]

Do tell please.

[DoomsDave]

Is ANYONE, experienced?

Apparently not.

[Gonzer]

Yowzer Davey m'lad, I thought per chance I had written this post with invisible ink! Now, get out there and scare me up some answers! BTW, yes, of course I iz experienced.

[DoomsDave]

Does anyone have a clue?

I don't.

[Gonzer]

This surprises me and makes my heart heavy. Humic and fulvic acids are soil-enhancing agents derived naturally. I've been using it/them as a liquid soil drench and also as a dry scattered particulate on top of the soil. The only results that were immediately noticed were the condition of my tomatoes. Bumper crop! Supposedly these acids improve the uptake of minerals and improve your soil's viability to sustain micro-organisms. Maybe Stoney the Jag knows something, he knows just about all the good stuff.

[Hammer]

I applied them pretty liberally to my lawn.   My understanding is they reduce the effects of hydrophobic soil allowing water to soak in and not be repelled and then run off.

[Xenon]

Got the organic gardening bug a few years ago...used a sachet of "Ful-Humix" by BioAg as part of a liquid feed. Never did any trials or comparisons so no idea if it works or not (sorry, not much help lol). I'm much more laid back now. 

[Gonzer]

4 hours ago, Xenon said:

Got the organic gardening bug a few years ago...used a sachet of "Ful-Humix" by BioAg as part of a liquid feed. Never did any trials or comparisons so no idea if it works or not (sorry, not much help lol). I'm much more laid back now. 

Ful-Power by Bio Ag is what I've got now Jonathan. All the literature out there concerning these products makes me wonder why more folks haven't tried them.

[Hammer]

On 6/30/2017, 3:26:58, Gonzer said:

Ful-Power by Bio Ag is what I've got now Jonathan. All the literature out there concerning these products makes me wonder why more folks haven't tried them.

Gonz, how often do you apply the humic acid to your palms?  Does the application frequency and amount remain consistent across your entire garden? 

[Gonzer]

The dry product I use twice a year, the liquid I use maybe once a month depending on how heavily I've watered the month before. Remember, this is a soil enhancer and not a fertilizer per se. As an example my tomato plants this year grew to over 13' high, and these are 'Better Boy' plants!

[XYZ]

Hi, Gonz.

Anything that gets your soil pH range into the right groove for the particular that plants you're growing - all other things being equal - will tend to produce these kinds of remarkable results. In this case HA is generally used to "condition" soils/lower soil pH so as to free up a number of micronutrients at soil-root interface that are insoluble at high pH. What many gardeners and farmers don't get about supplemental products that only really act when you're bumping up against the rev limiter in terms of growth is that they often show no results at all when plants are barely hanging on. Thus, kelp extracts and so forth can produce very visible results in exceptionally well-grown ornamentals, but no apparent results whatsoever when they're in the hands of black thumbs.

I used processed humic acid -treated composts as row mulches on a large, commercial scale in bramble culture and never really noticed a difference.

OT; I am a huge fan of cold water kelp extracts and de-odorized fish emulsions as rotational feeds for many tropical foliage plants, but due to the presence of brown rats, raccoons and skunks in our area, am unable to apply them without risking catastrophic greenhouse invasions.

[Hammer]

9 hours ago, stone jaguar said:

Hi, Gonz.

Anything that gets your soil pH range into the right groove for the particular that plants you're growing - all other things being equal - will tend to produce these kinds of remarkable results. In this case HA is generally used to "condition" soils/lower soil pH so as to free up a number of micronutrients at soil-root interface that are insoluble at high pH. What many gardeners and farmers don't get about supplemental products that only really act when you're bumping up against the rev limiter in terms of growth is that they often show no results at all when plants are barely hanging on. Thus, kelp extracts and so forth can produce very visible results in exceptionally well-grown ornamentals, but no apparent results whatsoever when they're in the hands of black thumbs.

I used processed humic acid -treated composts as row mulches on a large, commercial scale in bramble culture and never really noticed a difference.

OT; I am a huge fan of cold water kelp extracts and de-odorized fish emulsions as rotational feeds for many tropical foliage plants, but due to the presence of brown rats, raccoons and skunks in our area, am unable to apply them without risking catastrophic greenhouse invasions.

Interesting comments Jay.  If I read you correctly, your argument is that only well grown plants will exhibit results from HA, kelp extracts and fish emulsion.  So don't waste the money unless your garden is already doing well?

Is that a fair paraphrase? 

If so, what factors should one dial-in in order to realize the advantages of using these supplements? 

[XYZ]

 "If I read you correctly, your argument is that only well grown plants will exhibit results from HA, kelp extracts and fish emulsion.  So don't waste the money unless your garden is already doing well?"

More or less, "yes", that is my opinion.

I think many of the readers here have experienced a bit of shock/sudden humility when first walking in on a rainforest palm collection being grown by a talented gardener under near ideal, genuinely wet tropical conditions in Hawaii, CentrAm, SE Asia or Oz. Having natively fertile and well-drained soils, the right RH, good quality water, etc. trumps commercially marketed "solutions" by the widest of margins. If your garden is comprised of plants that are not subject to continual cyclical stresses (i.e. "zone pushing"), little tweaks here and there, that may include the judicious application of key microelements and so forth, can really bring things to near 100% of their potential. I think the additional of any rich, amended organic mulch also will reap big benefits when all else is near optimum.

There is no doubt that foliar sprays of N and/or Mg-rich ferts can green up many N/Mg deficient plants, and that fish emulsion is a fairly safe way to get nitrate nitrogen to your plants (unless you have rats or commensal meso-mammals around that find even deodorized fish emulsion irresistible). But all these esoteric things really work as advertised when plants are already on the gas.

[sonoranfans]

7 hours ago, stone jaguar said:

 "If I read you correctly, your argument is that only well grown plants will exhibit results from HA, kelp extracts and fish emulsion.  So don't waste the money unless your garden is already doing well?"

More or less, "yes", that is my opinion.

I think many of the readers here have experienced a bit of shock/sudden humility when first walking in on a rainforest palm collection being grown by a talented gardener under near ideal, genuinely wet tropical conditions in Hawaii, CentrAm, SE Asia or Oz. Having natively fertile and well-drained soils, the right RH, good quality water, etc. trumps commercially marketed "solutions" by the widest of margins. If your garden is comprised of plants that are not subject to continual cyclical stresses (i.e. "zone pushing"), little tweaks here and there, that may include the judicious application of key microelements and so forth, can really bring things to near 100% of their potential. I think the additional of any rich, amended organic mulch also will reap big benefits when all else is near optimum.

There is no doubt that foliar sprays of N and/or Mg-rich ferts can green up many N/Mg deficient plants, and that fish emulsion is a fairly safe way to get nitrate nitrogen to your plants (unless you have rats or commensal meso-mammals around that find even deodorized fish emulsion irresistible). But all these esoteric things really work as advertised when plants are already on the gas.

I will differ on this.  I have been using humic acid(liquid) for 10+ years in my arizona and then florida garden which I have grown mosttly from seedlings over the last 7+ years.  Humic acid is one of the final decomposition products of mulch and it conditions the soil to encourage beneficial microbes which help in nutrient absorption and stimulate root growth.  It also makes sandy soil conditions unfavorable to harmful nematodes and increases cation exchange capacity of your soil.  I use it 2x a year in fairly heavy doses and I think my fast growth rates speak for themselves( beccariophoenix alfredii from 2 1/2' to 20' overall in 7 years in the ground), copernicia baileyana from 12" to 10' plus in the same time.  If you have perfect soil, you might not get a great bump, but for sandy soil its definitely a big plus.  I have read the liquid form can stabilize fulvic acid, perhaps the most important organic decomposition product for nutrient adsorption and bio activity stimulation.  If you get the dry powder form order BOTH humic and fulvic acid(google it) separately.   One gallon of humic acid is about what comes from 2 tons of mulch, so it packs a much greater punch than mulch alone.  I mulch annually and wet the soil with dilute humic acid( 1 cup/5 gallons).  I Use 3-4 gallons a year total and its about 17% humic+ fulvic acid by weight.  5 gallons cost ~$65, I use "natureslawn" product called "bioactivate" which also has kelp in it.  

Edited September 7, 2017 by sonoranfans

[sonoranfans]

I will also say I have read that the effect is not as a soil pH adjustor.  I am a PhD chemist and can say its not a strong acid so it doesnt have a great pH altering capacity, the product for that is sulfur which soil microbes slowly decompose into sulfuric acid.  Humic acid a micronutrient "chelator", in other words it stabilizes micronutrients in the soil and keeps them bioactive over a greater pH range.  There is a TON of agricultural research by Ag departments in many universities showing more robust growth on both crops and larger plants.  

Edited September 7, 2017 by sonoranfans

[XYZ]

sf:

Just to clarify, I did not state here that humic acid doesn't work. I will admit to being a bit sloppy with regard to wording, but wrote, "...HA is generally used to "condition" soils/lower soil pH so as to free up a number of micronutrients at soil-root interface". In ag and horticulture, "soil conditioners" are generally understood to be products that improve soil's water retention capability, cation exchange capacity, and (oftentimes) physical structure, so we are mostly on the same page with regard to HA's advertised effects. I was indeed inexact with regard to HA being used by growers to lower soil pH, but assume that even a weakly acidic substance will indeed lower - if even ever-so-slightly - underlying substrate pH following repetitive applications over time.

As to a "TON" of research showing HA is effective, you are presumably aware that there are conflicting studies as to its efficacy so anyone can cherry-pick peer-reviewed studies to argue their point of view. Thus, two fairly recent ones that include controls appear to conclude differently:

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/cjps-2016-0143#.WbK1CsaQxaQ 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279647363_Humic_substances_generally_ineffective_in_improving_vegetable_crop_nutrient_uptake_or_productivity

Does this mean that I believe that applications of HA amendments are a waste of money to everyone? Of course not. It is just my opinion that it's superfluous to most growers that will be reading this post.

Gonzer's original question was whether anyone had experience with HA additives. Like you, I do, with primocane-bearing red raspberries in commercial production in central Guatemala during two seasons in the early 1990s. We had a couple experimental plots where humic acid amended organic mulch was applied several times to several rows on a physically lightened red clay soil, whose marketable fruit yield was compared to the controls (non-treated multi-acre plantings) over two seasons. As I wrote above, I found no noticeable difference in cropping between these plots and the control. However, we did NOT measure total biomass production, which would certainly be more relevant to this particular discussion. It may indeed have been somewhat higher on the treated rows (or not).

As to the positive results you have experienced with HA applications and some of your palms, good for you BUT, as you well know, correlation does not necessarily imply causality. The earlier point I was fumbling to make is that very talented growers in relatively benign climates who are at - to pick symbolic numbers - say, 80 or 90% of a plant's growth potential, are often able to wring even better looking/higher-yielding plots when they fine tune their growing conditions towards a theoretical optimum. Singling out HA, which may indeed be very effective in both your palms and Gonzer's tomatoes' case, for some might be a bit like the farmer with the prize-winning, 2,000 lb pumpkin who claims the secret to his success is that he massaged his giant squash with turmeric-infused buttermilk at every moonrise during its late growth stages. What cases like this often overlook is that someone willing to tramp out to a cold field every night for weeks to pamper their pumpkin is almost certainly also someone who is incredibly detail-oriented in every other way (i.e. proper plant nutrition, right amounts of irrigation water, good choice of exposure, rigorous pest control, protection from extreme weather, etc.) with regard to growing plants.

Cheers,

J

[sonoranfans]

Inconsistent growth rates in uncontrolled field studies are frequently reported with 1-3lb per acre applications in the references you give and in others.  The manufacturers claims of this thin application could be marketing recommendations that may not give a bump at all, but I dont follow those recommendations.  Uncontrolled variables often muck up interpretation of scientific research, its probably the biggest issue in complex research projects that fail to render a clear result.  University conducted greenhouse research is far more controlled and the results are overwhelmingly positive.   3lb an acre is such a low concentration I am not surprised the results can differ widely with say 50lb/acre.   100ppm in soil is a level at which "biological activation" has been observed, this is closer to 50lb/acre of pure humic acid in the top 4-6".  Even with 50 lb/acre, it would be important not to have inconsistencies in runoff in the treatment areas  It may be that the cost of humic acid is too high for the use on mass produced crops.  I use about 10 lbs(based on label of 17% humic) in the rootzones of 60 palms, many of which are planted in clusters.   This comes out to about 1200 ft2 (about 1/30th of an acre) in my 7500 ft2 yard, which calculates to 300lb an acre or 100x more than the contrary uncontrolled research that is cited.  Of course the research could yield varying results with an order of magnitude or more in differences in application rates.  Im not sure why anyone would compare 1-3lb rate with 50lb rate as a single treatment, seems to be poor science.  And my soils are almost all sand, hardly good soil for palms, it has a very small cation exchange capacity.  Soils with high organic matter that you mention in your raspberry field do not exist here, and might have plenty of humic acid to begin with due to decomposition of the high organic matter content.  Gonzer's tomatoes might be benefitting from the chelation and rinsing away of salt accumulations by humic acid.  I know this can be a big problem growing in containers in Socal.  I mulch once a year but below 2-4" my yard still mostly sand even after 7 years.  As for trundling out in the field for the "big pumpkin" to nurture it, I see my palms 4 weeks a year out of 52, they are on their own otherwise 48 weeks a year.  I choose to use humic acid for its well know properties of controlling harmful nemotodes, increasing cation exchange capacity in my sandy soil, and chelating accumulated salts so they rinse away so that they don't dehydrate my palms roots.  I dont see much of a chance that these well known beneficial effects are not causative in improving my palms growth in their sandy soil.  

Edited September 8, 2017 by sonoranfans

[humicharvest]

Humic acids chelate nutrient compounds, especially iron, in the soil to a form suitable for plant utilization. It increases nutrient uptake, drought tolerance, and seed germination.

[PatMaxwell]

Humic and fulvic acid make the soil viable and additives of humic and fulvic acid increase soils productivity. It also helps to decompose the harmful pest in soil and boost the growth of plants.