Jamaica coconut palms can't survive

[Eric Hawaii]

Hi, I spent a few months working in Jamaica, and I noticed that coconut palms usually die if you plant them on or near the beach. Hotels seem to struggle to keep their coconut palms alive, and in the western part of the island, they have turned to other species to plant on the beach, such as what appears to be a native type of sabal. The only place in Jamaica where I ever saw coconut growing successfully along the coast was in the northeast, in the parish of Portland. By contrast, coconut palm seems to grow very well in the interior of the island and even just a short distance from the beach in some areas, especially where there is forest. My conclusion (hypothesis): Phytophthera (lethal yellowing disease) continues to ravage palms along the coast due to breezes there and tradewinds. I do know that phytopthera has hit Jamaica in the past. Old photos (pre-1970's) show tall coconut palms growing along the beach in places where today they won't survive. What's weird is that the struggling palms I've seen planted today at beach hotels around Negril and Montego Bay don't seem to show the kinds of symptoms that phytopthora causes. They just seem to have yellowing lower leaves, shortening leaves, and low growth rate. What gives? I cannot find a single website that deals with this question no matter how I google it. And no Jamaicans I've spoken to about seem to know. I've heard a few say it's just the soil, but I know that's not true. The exact same kind of soil dominates other Caribbean islands where beaches are lined with coconut palms, and based on old photos, Jamaica used to be so too.

[howfam]

Eric

Lethal yellowing hit Florida very hard in the 1960's and 70's and devastated the coconut palms . My aunt in Miami had 17 coconuts in her yard ; all but one succumbed to LY by the mid 80's. The palms you see at newer beach hotels in Jamaica might be the hybrid Maypan (Green Malaya x Panama Tall).

[kinzyjr]

Lethal yellowing is a terrible disease, and most of the old Jamaican Talls are gone.  I grow a few here at my home, but worry about lethal yellowing taking them after some time.  If so, I hope to still have my Malay Dwarf and my Maypan, but I've also heard that the Malay varieties and hybrids aren't as resistant to the disease as once thought.  We have a similar disease wreaking havoc on date palms here (Texas Phoenix Palm Decline).  It has killed a lot of the Canary Island Date palms and True Date Palms in our avenue plantings.  It's odd that plants on the beach would have more issues in my opinion.  The disease is typically carried by a leaf hopper, and those tend to like grassy areas.

[DavidLee]

They could be planting Malays, what I read are not as salt tolerant as other varieties. I also observed Coconut palms look their best in not so windy environments. For instance, San Juan, Puerto Rico coastline gets hammered with northern wind in the winter and the Coconut palm there look just look OK. You go to the west coast of Puerto Rico like in Rincon where there just a gentle breeze, the Coconuts there look like the South Pacific's. Perfect as you can get.

[Eric Hawaii]

So why are tall coconut palms doing so well in so many parts of the Caribbean if LY disease is around the area? When I see photos of almost any island other than Jamaica, there are tall coconut palms along the beaches if it's an area that gets rain. Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, St Lucia, Barbados, Dominica, Martinique, Tobago, all loaded with apparently tall variety cocos.

[DavidLee]

I am not sure why. Maybe someone has researched why the western Caribbean got hit with lethal yellow and the eastern Caribbean seemed to got a pass.  I am thankful that those locations you mentioned still have a lot of Jamaican talls. The Jamaican Talls I saw in Puerto Rico were so unbelievably gorgeous. I wish they could find a lethal yellow resistant Jamaican Tall so Jamaica beaches could reclaims its old glory.

[Mandrew968]

For the record, there is NO COCONUT VARIETY that is resistant to Lethal Yellowing. They can all get it, including all Pritchardia, Adonidia and a lot of other palms including Dypsis cabadae. Also, a palm can go down from this blight, and 200 yards away, the palms are not harmed, or acres of palms can be wiped out at a time--just the way the cookie crumbles...

[DavidLee]

We can only assume that all Coconut palms are susceptible to lethal yellow based upon there has not been a Coconut palm to be known to be lethal yellow resistant. Out of the millions of coconut palms out there, it is quit possible  there is a coconut palm that is resistant to lethal yellow. Just as there is small number of people who are resistant to HIV. So the only way to know I am right or wrong is to test every Coconut palm on the planet of their susceptibility to lethal yellow which is impossible. If there is one found, most likely it will be by accident. As I stated before hopefully one day they find a lethal yellow resistant coconut to help re establish those coconut palms that were lost at Jamaica's beaches. 

[Cluster]

I have always read articles claiming Fiji Dwarf are pretty resistant to lethal yellow.

[Mandrew968]

6 hours ago, DavidLee said:

We can only assume that all Coconut palms are susceptible to lethal yellow based upon there has not been a Coconut palm to be known to be lethal yellow resistant. Out of the millions of coconut palms out there, it is quit possible  there is a coconut palm that is resistant to lethal yellow. Just as there is small number of people who are resistant to HIV. So the only way to know I am right or wrong is to test every Coconut palm on the planet of their susceptibility to lethal yellow which is impossible. If there is one found, most likely it will be by accident. As I stated before hopefully one day they find a lethal yellow resistant coconut to help re establish those coconut palms that were lost at Jamaica's beaches. 

Yeah, and out of all the people out there, there must be someone who is immortal, cuz out of all those people... 

[Mandrew968]

3 hours ago, Cluster said:

I have always read articles claiming Fiji Dwarf are pretty resistant to lethal yellow.

I have seen many shows about bigfoot...

[Cluster]

They were studies with data to back them up, there was clearly something with the Fiji Dwarf. 

[Mandrew968]

32 minutes ago, Cluster said:

They were studies with data to back them up, there was clearly something with the Fiji Dwarf. 

They found footprints, hairs, and there is even a video that is reputed to show the beast walking through a clearing...

[Cluster]

As long it is not off type it shows a very good correlation with resistance. Here is a quick search with evidence for the bigfoot (all from different sites):

 

 

And here how it looks, one of the coolest varieties!:

 

You are welcome

Edited June 3, 2017 by Cluster

[Eric Hawaii]

Here in Hawaii, I've heard that LY disease spreads in droplets of moisture in the wind, so palms growing in places that receive coastal breezes that have been blowing thru other palms are more susceptible. For Jamaica, this might make sense in that there are fewer and fewer coconut palms as you go west on the island, and the only place where there are quite a few growing on the coast is on the east end of the island. Also, there seems to be some better chance for survival for palms growing in places where they are sheltered from wind, like where there are large trees growing to the windward side of them.

[Mandrew968]

Cluster, all joking aside, I am not a big fan of coconuts so its not very interesting, any of the data you are presenting. I appreciate the seriousness you are displaying, just don't take my snark personal-any chance I get, I will dish it out. Certainly not a personal thing; when I first came aboard palmtalk, it was a much more common practice...

Also, I still maintain all coconuts can get lethal yellowing. 

[bubba]

Yearly injections of Horse keep the Jamaican Talls in business in PB. It is sad that they no longer grow Jamaican Talls on Jamaican beaches when Horse is widely available worldwide.

[Mandrew968]

You mean tetracycline? 

[Cluster]

6 hours ago, Mandrew968 said:

Cluster, all joking aside, I am not a big fan of coconuts so its not very interesting, any of the data you are presenting. I appreciate the seriousness you are displaying, just don't take my snark personal-any chance I get, I will dish it out. Certainly not a personal thing; when I first came aboard palmtalk, it was a much more common practice...

Also, I still maintain all coconuts can get lethal yellowing. 

It is hard to know if one is being sarcastic in a negative or positive way over the internet. Regardless what I posted is important (and I would hazard anyone posting here in a coconut thread regarding LY, would be interested as well even if just to help) for the OP or anyone that has hopes of planting a coconut in a risky area. If I can help someone getting stronger coconuts that are proven to be more resistant to LY then I am happy. Saying bluntly that no coconut varieties has resistance to LY  (resistance is not immunity, though the true to type Fiji dwarf looks more like the latter) won't help anyone that wants to try to get an edge, in my opinion. 

So I am not being serious for the sake of it, but to invite people to read and try out possible documented solutions. Cheers:)

 

[Eric Hawaii]

11 hours ago, bubba said:

Yearly injections of Horse keep the Jamaican Talls in business in PB. It is sad that they no longer grow Jamaican Talls on Jamaican beaches when Horse is widely available worldwide.

Horse? 

[Eric Hawaii]

Cluster, altho Fiji Dwarf had zero losses to LY in that study, I see that there were only 4 of those palms planted in the sample, so that could mean that it was just lucky. I wonder what the results would have been if more had been planted. Regarding the contention that Malay Dwarf or Maypan coud be more resistant, maybe that's anecdotal from people who are growing them in places further from the beach where they are less likely to be hit by LY? I don't know.

[Mandrew968]

9 hours ago, Cluster said:

It is hard to know if one is being sarcastic in a negative or positive way over the internet. Regardless what I posted is important (and I would hazard anyone posting here in a coconut thread regarding LY, would be interested as well even if just to help) for the OP or anyone that has hopes of planting a coconut in a risky area. If I can help someone getting stronger coconuts that are proven to be more resistant to LY then I am happy. Saying bluntly that no coconut varieties has resistance to LY  (resistance is not immunity, though the true to type Fiji dwarf looks more like the latter) won't help anyone that wants to try to get an edge, in my opinion. 

So I am not being serious for the sake of it, but to invite people to read and try out possible documented solutions. Cheers:)

 

Well from the looks of it, I don't think you can grow coconuts in your climate. And in my backyard there are millions of them. On one of our properties, we have two huge Jamaican talls-one of them, I planted when I was 10. My point is if you want to grow a coconut, grow one! Doesn't matter which kind, here, as we have not had an LY outbreak in 20 + years. And the best way to fight a blight is to keep planting! If you stop growing a species due to blight, how is it ever going to develop a resistance??

[Cluster]

2 hours ago, Eric Hawaii said:

Cluster, altho Fiji Dwarf had zero losses to LY in that study, I see that there were only 4 of those palms planted in the sample, so that could mean that it was just lucky. I wonder what the results would have been if more had been planted. Regarding the contention that Malay Dwarf or Maypan coud be more resistant, maybe that's anecdotal from people who are growing them in places further from the beach where they are less likely to be hit by LY? I don't know.

Hello Eric

Yes 4 samples is not a lot, but do keep in mind that was just one of the studies, every quote there were from different places. It is kind of a consensus that they are indeed more resistant, if you search around, and it is also known that certain varieties do not fall as easily to LY as Jamaican talls. I agree with you that if there is more LY around the beach than of course it will be worse for such coconuts. Do keep in mind that in many studies all coconut varieties were all planted in the same environment and Jamaican talls are just less resistant.

The Fiji Dwarf is also still an exotic variety which is expensive and hard to come by which explains the fewer trials. Then there is a chance that they do not come true to type, but even the off types show more resistance than the Jamaican. They are also very slow....true dwarfs with tall traits.

1 hour ago, Mandrew968 said:

Well from the looks of it, I don't think you can grow coconuts in your climate. And in my backyard there are millions of them. On one of our properties, we have two huge Jamaican talls-one of them, I planted when I was 10. My point is if you want to grow a coconut, grow one! Doesn't matter which kind, here, as we have not had an LY outbreak in 20 + years. And the best way to fight a blight is to keep planting! If you stop growing a species due to blight, how is it ever going to develop a resistance??

Hello Andrew

Actually I can (on Madeira Island and we do not have LY there as far as I know, can't grow in Lisbon most likely), but that is besides the point. I do not think everyone should stop trying to grow Jamaican either and I agree with you that by keep trying you might just find out a new generation of Jamaican talls that will eventually be more resistant, but if one just wants to plant something that has an edge then there are better alternatives currently including Panama talls. 

Being a coconut enthusiast of course I have encountered a lot of LY information and how devastating it was for some places. Cheers.

[bubba]

Andrew,You would be absolutely correct. I have no idea why  Jamaican hotels on the beach would not use the highly effective antibiotic utilized in Palm Beach for years. The wind in Hawaii does not cause LY in Hawaii (that nasty little insect) and  I did not know that Hawaii had been hit with LY and certainly hope it is not true.

Obviously attempts at humor do not translate well on the Internet. That will not stop me.

[Mandrew968]

I hear you, Bubba! People must think I am the biggest jerk, when I joke with them, oh well.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2017‎ ‎7‎:‎28‎:‎39‎, DavidLee said:

I am not sure why. Maybe someone has researched why the western Caribbean got hit with lethal yellow and the eastern Caribbean seemed to got a pass.  I am thankful that those locations you mentioned still have a lot of Jamaican talls. The Jamaican Talls I saw in Puerto Rico were so unbelievably gorgeous. I wish they could find a lethal yellow resistant Jamaican Tall so Jamaica beaches could reclaims its old glory.

Actually, I think there must be some natural genetic strains of the Jamaican Talls that are resistant to the disease, because when I lived in South Florida back in 2000 and 2001, I saw some huge mature palms that looked VERY HEALTHY with no signs of the disease whatsoever and no tetracycline injectors in them!  And these were growing just fine in areas that had been hit pretty hard by Lethal Yellowing years earlier when judging by the size of these trees, they had been in the ground during he height of the LY outbreak, but weren't affected in the least bit!  I would love to have some sprouts or at least mature viable nuts that I could sprout from these palms!

John

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2017‎ ‎8‎:‎01‎:‎10‎, Eric Hawaii said:

Here in Hawaii, I've heard that LY disease spreads in droplets of moisture in the wind, so palms growing in places that receive coastal breezes that have been blowing thru other palms are more susceptible. For Jamaica, this might make sense in that there are fewer and fewer coconut palms as you go west on the island, and the only place where there are quite a few growing on the coast is on the east end of the island. Also, there seems to be some better chance for survival for palms growing in places where they are sheltered from wind, like where there are large trees growing to the windward side of them.

I read year ago, that it is spread by a leaf hopper (Mydus crudus), and I also read that this leaf hopper is associated with St. Augustine Grass, so for all of you that want a lush green St. Augustine lawn, but also want Coconut Palms, I say go for the Coconut Palms and forget the lush green St. Augustine lawn!  Plant Bermuda Grass instead!

John

[kinzyjr]

27 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Actually, I think there must be some natural genetic strains of the Jamaican Talls that are resistant to the disease, because when I lived in South Florida back in 2000 and 2001, I saw some huge mature palms that looked VERY HEALTHY with no signs of the disease whatsoever and no tetracycline injectors in them!  And these were growing just fine in areas that had been hit pretty hard by Lethal Yellowing years earlier when judging by the size of these trees, they had been in the ground during he height of the LY outbreak, but weren't affected in the least bit!  I would love to have some sprouts or at least mature viable nuts that I could sprout from these palms!

John

Hutchinson Island is supposed to be one of those places where Jamaican Talls managed to hold out pretty well in spite of Lethal Yellowing.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2017‎ ‎4‎:‎56‎:‎59‎, Mandrew968 said:

Well from the looks of it, I don't think you can grow coconuts in your climate. And in my backyard there are millions of them. On one of our properties, we have two huge Jamaican talls-one of them, I planted when I was 10. My point is if you want to grow a coconut, grow one! Doesn't matter which kind, here, as we have not had an LY outbreak in 20 + years. And the best way to fight a blight is to keep planting! If you stop growing a species due to blight, how is it ever going to develop a resistance??

They do quite well on his island, especially for an island that far north of the Tropics.  People have said the same thing, that you can't grow them in Texas, yet there are beautiful mature ones with nuts on them in the Rio Grande Valley, and they have been grown to maturity with some nuts on them as far north as Corpus Christi, Texas between bad winters!  I currently have a Green Malayan Dwarf that is about 14 ft. tall in overall height with about 2 ft. of woody trunk on it in my front yard on the east side of Corpus Christi that has survived the last 2 bad winters!  So, anyway, they are somewhat more cold hardy than people want to give them credit for (especially when you grow them ALL ORGANICALLY like I do)j and I think they are more resistant to Lethal Yellowing than a lot of people want to give them credit for, ESPECIALLY THE FIJI DWARF (UNLESS OF COURSE THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX WITH THEIR EVIL LAB AT FT. DETRICK, MARYLAND DECIDES TO COME UP WITH SOME WAY TO KILL OFF EVEN THE RESISTANT VARIETIES!  I WOULDN'T BE SURPISED IF THEY DIDN'T HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH LETHAL YELLOWING TO BEGIN WITH, BECAUSE FROM WHAT I HAVE GATHERED, THERE WERE NO DOCUMENTED CASES OF IT BEFORE SEVERAL DECADES AGO!).

John

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

34 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

Hutchinson Island is supposed to be one of those places where Jamaican Talls managed to hold out pretty well in spite of Lethal Yellowing.

Interesting.  I wonder if that is a more naturally resistant strain of them, and being a good distance north of Miami, the ones there should have a little more cold resistance too than the ones in Miami and the Keys!

John