What do you have in mind as a pure Phoenix reclinata?

[Phoenikakias]

I was reading an old book for palms outside the tropics (Keith Boyer 'Palms and Cycads beyond the tropics') and came across the dscription of P reclinata in this book. I admit that I could not imagine a broader definition! The leaflets are namely 'bright to deep green, blueish or grey green' and they 'are positioned in several ranks or single plane'! Not much you can conclude about the appearance of a typical reclinata from this description. And to give justice to the book, same applies on pictures of various specimens in the palmpedia. There, one can see specimens with very fanned leaves and specimens with so tidy leaves like those of rupicola; pretty broad spectrum.  I wonder further whether there are localised varieties in cultivation. For example I posess a specimen very similar, if not identical, to one  Geoff's pictured in the palmpedia. Same form is quite widespread in Italy (like in the botanical gardens of Rome and Naples), so that I dare call this form the italian one. On the other hand the very famous clump in Menton, France has very fanned leaves, while many pictures from Florida show rupicola alike foliage for thought to be reclinata specimens. I dare also call the other two forms the french and the floridian one respectively.So please express your opinion and experience on this issue...

[Pal Meir]

Dransfield & Beentje 1995: Palms of Madagascar, pp. 47-49 gives a good (reliable) description.

[Pal Meir]

And what I have in mind is a palm like this:

[Phoenikakias]

8 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

Dransfield & Beentje 1995: Palms of Madagascar, pp. 47-49 gives a good (reliable) description.

Pal, how come you find the desrcription in PoM conclusive?! I also have the book and first thing I didd, was to look in to it for a description.  It states namely that distal pinnae are regularly arranged in one plane, whille proximal ones are often (not always?) fanned. Well this can apply also on CIDP and a vast number number of hybrids. The same book states further (under the note section) that reclinata has a vegetatively polymorphic nature without any details about this polymorphism. I try here to investigate this polymorphism with respect to foliage. Of course the flowers and trunk's diameter are helpful to identify mature specimens,  but what about plants in pots...

[Pal Meir]

11 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Pal, how come you find the desrcription in PoM conclusive?! I also have the book and first thing I didd, was to look in to it for a description.  It states namely that distal pinnae are regularly arranged in one plane, whille proximal ones are often (not always?) fanned. Well this can apply also on CIDP and a vast number number of hybrids. The same book states further (under the note section) that reclinata has a vegetatively polymorphic nature without any details about this polymorphism. I try here to investigate this polymorphism with respect to foliage. Of course the flowers and trunk's diameter are helpful to identify mature specimens,  but what about plants in pots...

I think the description in PoM says only how variable this species can be in its natural habitat even without hybridization (e.g. in the Mediterranean or USA). That’s all.

[Steve Mac]

16 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

."So please express your opinion...."

Ok, thanks Mate. Although I am usually devoid of facts, I do have a ton of unresearched opinions. So please correct me where I am wrong.

Although it does not apply to all palms, the often used term that explains a lot of things to me is, 'highly variable'. And where some palms do not hybridize/cross pollinate easily, Phonix do. This may or may not have been as apparent to the pioneers in botanical recording as it is to us. Still today, as I am sure in the future, we are still reclassifying palms, we have found many species described and redescribed under different names. So if they were not vague or 'all encompassing' they may have been subject to ridicule by their peers.  As is the case today. And fair enough. I believe that we should strive for truth too.

I'm thinking that with the knowledge that they had available to them at the time and the conditions that they worked under it was the best that they could do, or at least what Keith Boyer could do. Without the internet,.... etc.  

  We are " nanos gigantum humeris insidentes " .or  'standing on the shoulders of giants'  to know what we do now. He did as well as he could.

Point 2. I agree with Pal.(implied by the picture) that you don't need to see if the leaves are wide or thin, induplicate, oblanceolate or otherwise, look at the picture and it screams  'RECLINATA'. It is not of course as it is seen in the wild, but it is the way that I and most people like to see them. All domesticated and cleaned up. Like a lot of other clumping palms reclinata is a horrible impenetrable mess if left as it is in the wild. And Pal I saw that clump recently in Sydney and it looks the same, I think that it is the same one, I didn't notice the background.

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[quaman58]

Dumb question: Why is there a description of this palm in the "Palms of Madagascar"? I always assumed it was an African mainland species. Does it overlap naturally in Madagascar? If so, which part?

[Phoenikakias]

So it states PoM. In fact is supposed to be one the very few endemic palms in Madagascar, which also occur outside the island.  Few named localities in the island are Menarandra river near Tranoroa and Mananjary road, W of town.

[sonoranfans]

I read a while back that even the wild strands of reclinatas have been contaminated by hybridization.  I had a hybrid and it was suckering madly with trunks reaching 6-8 caliper quickly, the true reclinata has thin trunks and shortish leaves.  the leaflets of a true reclinata are not sypposed to be able to stab you, mine was a weapon with what appeared to be CIDP blood.  It was a nightmare to trim and needed frequent trimming, no thanks.  My only current phoenix sp is a rupicola triple, those soft bendy thorns are much more manageable and no sucker pruning is necessary.