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Landscape Design Dilemma after Palm Loss


Kim

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The loss of one of my first palms was hard to take, but these things happen. It's time to move on. 

As you will see in the photos, there was a balance to the design of this open area, with a trio of Clinostigma samoense. Now it feels lop-sided. Some of  you may have had this problem and may have some good solutions.

I had considered:

-- remove the remains of the palm and replant. Probably the most difficult physically and to source the same species. I might be able to source a Clinostigma savoryanum; similar, but different.

-- carve a tiki.  No experience, no tools; not satisfied that idea will resolve the lop-sided design.

-- plant epiphytes such as bromeliads or a climbing aroid to cover the remains of the trunk.  Feels like a knee-jerk solution.

Suggestions?  Photos below from several angles.

IMG_4846.thumb.jpg.11881934a6c184a85d9d4

 

IMG_4850.thumb.jpg.49407fb2ab91a7ad7c48a

 

IMG_4853.thumb.jpg.c09170b2676f9a006b473

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Kim Cyr

Between the beach and the bays, Point Loma, San Diego, California USA
and on a 300 year-old lava flow, Pahoa, Hawaii, 1/4 mile from the 2018 flow
All characters  in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

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Hi Kim, very sorry for your loss.  I have lost many special palms.  I noticed that you have only pinnate palms.  However, my suggestion would be to remove the trunk, and plant something completely different from the two remaining palms.  Perhaps a palmate palm ?  :)

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San Francisco, California

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Hi Kim, very sorry for your loss.  I already have lost some special palms.  My suggestion would be to remove the trunk, and not to replant any palm, just enjoy the space which appears now.

Your Cyrtostachys will grow, the two Clinostigma also.

And:

For palm-addict like us, getting a free and avalaible space for a period, until you decide you plant the Wallaceodoxa you got from a friend, can be lot of fun :mellow:

I would keep a space for a Wallaceodoxa in Doranakanda gardens!

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5809129ecff1c_P1010385copie3.JPG.15aa3f5

Philippe

 

Jungle Paradise in Sri Lanka

 

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A Wallaceodoxa sounds great. I wish I knew where to find one. But I don't know why it is hard to find a Clino samoense (Floribunda?). I gave away all my extras because they were so common here on the Big Island. But have extras of C. harlandii, ponapense, and exorhizum that you can have if you want.

 

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Mike Merritt

Big Island of Hawaii, windward, rainy side, 740 feet (225 meters) elevation

165 inches (4,200 mm) of rain per year, 66 to 83 deg F (20 to 28 deg C) in summer, 62 to 80 deg F (16.7 to 26.7 Deg C) in winter.

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Ouch!

Been there, done that so many times!

Darold's suggestion could work, if you pick a palmate palm that's not too bold (a bizzie might be too bold).

Tikis work best with hard wooded palms. Some palms make tikis that look good, then either rot away, or "pucker" as soft tissues dry out. I suspect Clinostigmas will be that latter type (fast growing) though I could be wrong. (Caryotas make great tikis; nice hard wood.)

For the purest balance, I'd go with another Clinostigma, or something that looks like it, if you can find one big enough, for a cost that won't be extravagant.

On the other hand, after viewing the various angles, maybe something similar, but different, like a Lemuriophoenix, though I suspect an "L-p" might take longer than you'd like to get up to size. Or, something else that's nice but will also get tall and not be "too much." (Maybe you'd find an L-p to be too much because of its coloration? A Cyrtostachys would certainly be. To me at least.)

Maybe try a "Pillar of Orchids." You could cover the whole dead trunk with orchids that bloom year-round, at least in succession. And, if you decide you don't like that, take the whole thing down, relocate the orchids and try some of the other suggestions above.

I offer this as food for thought.

Do let us know what you decide to do. Even if you try one thing and change your mind. It's educational for all of us, as well as a visual treat.

 

 

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Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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I think you should replant but it would need to be another pinnate palm preferably with drooping leaflets to maintain the look of the area.  A palmate one would look out of place. I was going to say something like a Carpoxylon, Satakentia, or a Euterpe since they have a similar look without being too much like the Clinostigmas but Phillipe's suggestion of a Wallaceodoxa sounds like a winner.

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I'll bet a Lemuriophoenix would be a nice new focal point. The pics were a bit misty, so I missed the Cyrtostachys . . . :o

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Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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19 minutes ago, rick said:

I think you should replant but it would need to be another pinnate palm preferably with drooping leaflets to maintain the look of the area.  A palmate one would look out of place. I was going to say something like a Carpoxylon, Satakentia, or a Euterpe since they have a similar look without being too much like the Clinostigmas but Phillipe's suggestion of a Wallaceodoxa sounds like a winner.

OK Rick,

Let's find Wallaceodoxa plants!

But where?

 

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5809129ecff1c_P1010385copie3.JPG.15aa3f5

Philippe

 

Jungle Paradise in Sri Lanka

 

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23 minutes ago, doranakandawatta said:

OK Rick,

Let's find Wallaceodoxa plants!

But where?

 

Time for a field trip to New Guinea! :floor:

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I don't know much about the Wallaceodoxa but pictures on the interweb show a very narrow trunk. To maintain your garden feng shui, I too suggest planting a Carpoxylon or a Satakentia. OM

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The weight of lies will bring you down / And follow you to every town / Cause nothin happens here

That doesn't happen there / So when you run make sure you run / To something and not away from

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A lot of bromeliads!!!!

* knee-jerk solution.:D

Edited by foxtail
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Rio_Grande.gif

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What I would do is keep the trunk and cover it with bromeliads and the find a smaller Clinostigma and plant it near the trunk. Then you will have different heights of Clinostigma's.

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Lived in Cape Coral, Miami, Orlando and St. Petersburg Florida.

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Hi Kim,

When Bo and I were walking your garden a couple months ago the thought of a bromeliad tree popped into my mine after seeing so many wonders specimens in Bo's and Bills garden. all that color would be insane :)

amazing garden BTY I love that Bali inspired hut you had built. Super cool!!!

  • Upvote 1

Carlsbad, California Zone 10 B on the hill (402 ft. elevation)

Sunset zone 24

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3 hours ago, foxtail said:

A lot of bromeliads!!!!

* knee-jerk solution.:D

Ohhh, and crotons for sure.

Rio_Grande.gif

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Planting another palm would be my last option for that spot.

1. Cut the trunk to ground level. Find the largest glazed clay pot you can. Fill it with water and plant a waterlily and add a few guppies to eat mosquito larvae.Use small bromeliads as a ground cover to define and anchor the space.

2. Leave the trunk and mount a variety of orchids, bromeliads. Surround the area with larger growing (flowering) Aechmeas or Porteas.

Fate has given you the opportunity to do something out of your comfort level. Go for it !

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El Oasis - beach garden, distinct wet/dry season ,year round 20-38c

Las Heliconias - jungle garden ,800m elevation,150+ inches rainfall, year round 15-28c

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3 hours ago, Pando said:

RPS has seeds

Ho yes, and cheap ! :(

Many thanks for the information, I wouldn't think they could get seeds of Wallaceodoxa so early

5809129ecff1c_P1010385copie3.JPG.15aa3f5

Philippe

 

Jungle Paradise in Sri Lanka

 

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Lots of good suggestions from everyone, thank you!  

Darrold -- Good observation, lots of pinnate palms in that area. I wouldn't have thought to plant a fan palm there, but that's the point of asking -- fresh ideas! About 30 ft. from the dead palm is a Tahina, just starting to really take off, and batches of Licuala and Kerriodoxa further away, so the garden has a few fans...

Philippe -- Good eye for the Wallaceodoxa, but from seed? :o I am not a young woman. :lol: I need faster results!

Mike -- When Bo had a nursery, Clinostigma samoense were plentiful, but no more. Floribunda has seedlings for $2, and yes, they grow fast, but...  I may have an interest in your extras of the other species, especially if they are around 5-gal. size.  Thanks for the offer; stay tuned. :)

Rick -- Good ideas for palms to preserve the look without being identical.

Dave -- Lemurophoenix would be a different look, for sure. I'd have to find a big one.

Pete -- Feng shui IS important, for sure. Thanks for reminding me. :)

Foxtail -- It might be "knee-jerk" but it would be easy.  Removing that trunk is going to require heavy equipment, or some strong backs. (stronger than mine, for sure) Crotons? Not happening in that location ^_^ but I have a few elsewhere.

Pando -- You germinate the seeds, I'll plant them for you.  B)

Xenon -- Okay, one more vote for Satakentia... (I have a group of 3 toward the back of the garden, and they are WAY slower than Clinostigma.  But aren't most palms?

Palmaceae -- Interesting thought, combining ideas. My tallest Clino is starting to produce seeds, but I don't know if they are viable. Won't be long before I'll have lots of seeds, for sure.

Josh -- Another vote for a bromeliad tree, a definite possibility.  Thanks for the compliment on the "Tea House." Glad you enjoyed your visit; do come back again.

Scott -- Very creative ideas.  And yes, a pond, even in a pot, is way outside my comfort zone. :P But I can totally envision what you described... both ideas.  Tempting!  (AND there are no raccoons here! Big plus for a water feature with fish!)

Richnorm -- Funny thing, the 3 Clinos were all the same size when planted, but they turned out to be "small, medium, and large." The medium size got hit by banana moth. :(

Others, please continue to post suggestions. 

 

 

  • Upvote 3

Kim Cyr

Between the beach and the bays, Point Loma, San Diego, California USA
and on a 300 year-old lava flow, Pahoa, Hawaii, 1/4 mile from the 2018 flow
All characters  in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

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Good eye for the Wallaceodoxa, but from seed? :o I am not a young woman. :lol: I need faster results!

In Hawaii, you'll have a nice plant within 4 years !
I am sure that Wallaceodoxa is as fast as a Ptychosperma you don't see coming as weeds!

 

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5809129ecff1c_P1010385copie3.JPG.15aa3f5

Philippe

 

Jungle Paradise in Sri Lanka

 

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Kim,  After seeing a few of the wonderful pictures of your garden throughout palm talk I am amazed and inspired by your collection and the top degree of paradise you have established.  As a rookie, I can tell you that gardens like yours will keep me chomping at the bit to achieve some level of tropical palm jungle. I am sorry for your loss. 

I am no design expert, but If I were faced with a similar situation I would probably plant just a few narrow trunk, dainty pinnate palms around the trunk, then cover the trunk in orchids and bromeliads not as a "knee-jerk", but as a alter of respect for the Clinostigma samoense, and the nature of the tropics. In my mind the epiphytes would flow down the trunk into terrestrial bromeliads around the base and just past the few narrow trunk palms.  This could add a sense of placement, flow, color, frond weight balance, and possible focal point.

I'm sure that no matter what you decide, you will continue achieve that wow factor so many of us strive for. Just my 2 cents.

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Kim, sorry for your loss. Just from looking at the pictures, the trio of palms formed a triangle which was 'anchored' to the fence with the palm that died. But because of the fence, the symmetry is still there - the horizontal fence combined with the two clinos up front. To restore that 'anchor', you need a palm in that spot that will stand out from the Arecas near the fence even when it's small. Something that immediately draws the eye to it, as right now these two remaining clinos are kind of 'floating' up front and there is no 'presence' near the fence. Not sure if I'm making any sense as it's my designer part talking and he's not explaining this well for me.  :mrlooney:

I think what you need there is a monster, perhaps a palmate one (Corypha, Tahina, etc.), or some entire leaf ones like Salacca, or a grouping of a distinctly different species in color and form, something that will stand out from the other palms near the fence.

Hawaii is such a tough place to grow palms that I'm not sure what grows there...  sigh...   :lol:

Edited by Pando
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3 hours ago, Pando said:

Kim, sorry for your loss. Just from looking at the pictures, the trio of palms formed a triangle which was 'anchored' to the fence with the palm that died. But because of the fence, the symmetry is still there - the horizontal fence combined with the two clinos up front. To restore that 'anchor', you need a palm in that spot that will stand out from the Arecas near the fence even when it's small. Something that immediately draws the eye to it, as right now these two remaining clinos are kind of 'floating' up front and there is no 'presence' near the fence. Not sure if I'm making any sense as it's my designer part talking and he's not explaining this well for me.  :mrlooney:

I think what you need there is a monster, perhaps a palmate one (Corypha, Tahina, etc.), or some entire leaf ones like Salacca, or a grouping of a distinctly different species in color and form, something that will stand out from the other palms near the fence.

Hawaii is such a tough place to grow palms that I'm not sure what grows there...  sigh...   :lol:

Funny! I don't agree with you Pando! It shows how many different views we can have about garden design and planting schemes.
I am almost sure that keeping the space empty is the best decision, either for getting a new balance between space and volumes, or for keeping that special place for a special palm.
Anyway, a new palm belongs to a new generation and will always show a difference with the established ones.

Gladly such a thread in Palmtalk forum allows all of us to share different views.

PS: many thanks again for the information, did you buy some seeds?

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5809129ecff1c_P1010385copie3.JPG.15aa3f5

Philippe

 

Jungle Paradise in Sri Lanka

 

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Kim,

Wow, lots of great suggestions here! :)  And the funny thing, as you certainly already know, no matter what you decide it will be just fine. Landscaping is of course an art form and in art there is no "right" or "wrong" - just different approaches and I am convinced that no matter what you decide to do with the Clinostigma stump, and no matter what you will do in that particular spot, in time, it will be totally integrated in your garden fairly soon. But I AM curious what your decision will be. :rolleyes:

Bo-Göran

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Leilani Estates, 25 mls/40 km south of Hilo, Big Island of Hawai'i. Elevation 880 ft/270 m. Average rainfall 140 inches/3550 mm

 

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9 hours ago, bgl said:

Kim,

Wow, lots of great suggestions here! :)  And the funny thing, as you certainly already know, no matter what you decide it will be just fine. Landscaping is of course an art form and in art there is no "right" or "wrong" - just different approaches and I am convinced that no matter what you decide to do with the Clinostigma stump, and no matter what you will do in that particular spot, in time, it will be totally integrated in your garden fairly soon. But I AM curious what your decision will be. :rolleyes:

Bo-Göran

yes keep us posted :)

Carlsbad, California Zone 10 B on the hill (402 ft. elevation)

Sunset zone 24

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Wow, great photoshop, Pando!  I can see why you like the giant fan palm idea from the perspective of that photo.  If you were to walk the garden it might change your perspective.  There is a narrow path around that side of the lawn leading to a major path toward the back of the garden. The big fan palm might obstruct the walk, at least for a long period before getting overhead.  Okay, now I have to go out there and look again! :huh: It would certainly obstruct the sight lines toward the back.

Jesse, thank you for your very kind comments!  Funny thing, I still feel like a rookie. :)  There is always more to learn about palms and gardens, so I try to keep an open mind.

This lawn area is the only flat open area in the garden, except for the driveway.  It is a picnic area that was requested by my daughter, though I don't think we've actually used it as such. :rolleyes: Still, whatever direction I go, the flat open "garden room" is an essential element.

Yesterday I spent some time looking at really big pots for a possible water lily feature.  No decisions yet. :)  All the suggestions are very inspiring, and like Bo said, there is no right or wrong, but there will be a personal preference.  Decisions, decisions!

 

 

Kim Cyr

Between the beach and the bays, Point Loma, San Diego, California USA
and on a 300 year-old lava flow, Pahoa, Hawaii, 1/4 mile from the 2018 flow
All characters  in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

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 If not another clino hows about a Neovietchia storkii perhaps or something with similar trunk diameter Or a maybe Marojejya or joey palm something with a upright form as to not block out the yard so much my two cents Thats a pisser about the  Clino i do like triples

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I'd plant a durian tree there.  Mainly because I really like durians.. but also seriously I think that a tree might work better than a palm because you will always be playing "catch up" with a palm.  However I'm not a terribly talented landscape designer so this is just a suggestion from an enthusiast.

 

 

 

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The 3 Clino's were a very special focal point in the garden and the two remaining are still special. I don't know why but I'm leaning to a Bentinckia condapanna for a replacement. It would be a focal point within a focal point. But that being said, in the wild palms look great wherever they decide to grow, as long as they're healthy. What you are trying to do is use your own view of what is beautiful and manipulate nature to do that. Theirs nothing wrong with that of course. That's landscaping after all. So what you finally like is what is right for your garden. 

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Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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Kim

I am still blown away by the growth rate of your garden.

Maybe a silver bismarckia in the mix would make a great contrast !

Troy

Old Beach ,Hobart
Tasmania ,Australia. 42 " south
Cool Maritime climate

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I know there is a strong tendency to plant every square foot but in a long term successful landscape plan, negative space (empty space) is just as important as the planted areas.

This is particularly important in tropical regions where rampant growth is the norm.

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El Oasis - beach garden, distinct wet/dry season ,year round 20-38c

Las Heliconias - jungle garden ,800m elevation,150+ inches rainfall, year round 15-28c

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17 hours ago, scottgt said:

I know there is a strong tendency to plant every square foot but in a long term successful landscape plan, negative space (empty space) is just as important as the planted areas.

This is particularly important in tropical regions where rampant growth is the norm.

I agree with you but I know, both from my personal attitude and from my professional practice (landscape designer) that being interested or seduced by the emptiness is more difficult to choose than just feeling a great happiness with planting a (or several) wonderful species.

Kim can take the fate of this loss as a chance given to her for enjoying this emptiness for a while.... what and see ?

5809129ecff1c_P1010385copie3.JPG.15aa3f5

Philippe

 

Jungle Paradise in Sri Lanka

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Kim!

As I find time and energy to catch up on PalmTalk a bit, I have just enjoyed all the spirited, caring and insightful opinions about how to turn your loss into an opportunity.

To me that is the path we should all strive to follow in life overall.

More specifically, I am sorry about the death of a treasured tree, but enjoyed seeing the beauty that remains.

I am absolutely no help at all making a choice, since every idea sounds good to me! I will look forward to updates here.

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Cindy Adair

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Lemuriophoenix.

What can I say?

I'll shut up now. :rolleyes:

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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What a great oppurtunity to add something special to really liven up the area. Right now to me the garden is too harmonious, to much of the same… jazz it up with a big silver leaf palm and add punches of color to set off the silver… since photo are better than words here is some suggestion.  Big silver palm with some red ti plants and in front of the ti plants some orange punches of color…see photos below for examples… The skies the limit so have some fun and make this into a real show stopper! No matter what you do I am sure it will be awesome! 

images.jpeg

images-1.jpeg

red-ti-plant-cordyline-fruticosa-and-pink-impatiens-flowers-with-bromelliad-GGJ872.jpg

Hawaiian-Tropical-Gardens-MG-0893.jpg

Edited by Palm crazy
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You could also do a water feature in place of the palm? That would take some planning and money, maybe a small one. 

OA16-Craig-Reynolds-Landscape-Architecture_Gorgeous-Garden_4.jpg.rend.hgtvcom.1280.853.jpeg

OA16-Craig-Reynolds-Landscape-Architecture_Gorgeous-Garden_2.jpg.rend.hgtvcom.1280.853.jpeg

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Wow, PalmCrazy, that is fab-loso! But I feel quite sure my petite budget will not produce such spectacular results. Tremendous fantasy, though, and I like pushing the boundaries of thought this way.  Thank you!  That would be in Thailand?

Kim Cyr

Between the beach and the bays, Point Loma, San Diego, California USA
and on a 300 year-old lava flow, Pahoa, Hawaii, 1/4 mile from the 2018 flow
All characters  in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

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Kim not sure where the first pond photo is from but the second one is from Miami.  Yeah I have a problem with dreaming to big and then reality set in and I have to scale back for my little backyard and climate . LOL!  I believe all the other photos are from HI. 

Edited by Palm crazy
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