Reverse Osmosis

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Waterbutt suits me just fine

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Found this picture of how a complete system would look...

[www.dadluvsu.com]

This is why I need a RO system...

[www.dadluvsu.com]

http://www.aquariumwaterfilters.com/

Just thought I would throw up this link.... I have never dealt with this company but their products look good and prices look very competative...

[Phil]

William and Others,

Here's a quick synopsis of how an RO System works.

1.  You have a water supply.  Typically this is city, but it could be well or even ocean.

2.  You route this water to your system.  You need at least 40 PSI to do anything.

3.  You run the water through a bath of activated charcoal. This removes chlorine.  This system has to be able to be backwashed or it gets algae and quite funky.

4.  The water next goes through a "water softener".  This exchanges sodium for calcium.  Water in our area is typically high in calcium.  Calcium fouls your membranes and the membranes are expensive.  The softener is actually exchanging sodium for calcium.  The membranes are better at rejecting sodium than calcium.  Calcium coats the membranes and can mean more frequent purchase of new membranes.  This softener also needs to be backwashed almost daily.

5.  The water then goes into a pump that forces the water into the membranes.  If you just need a little water, this can be skipped.  But, for a commercial nursery you're going to have to pump it in.  The pumps can be driven by anywhere from a one HP motor up to ten HP.  I'm currently changing over to a three HP motor.  The higher the number of membranes used, the bigger the pump and the stronger the motor.  Also, the number of "stages" in the pumps is higher with bigger systems.  These pumps are quite expensive.

6.  The water then enters the membranes.  Some goes "through" the membranes creating your "permeate" (good water).  The water not going through is concentrated in salts and called the "concentrate".  The latter goes down the drain and the former is collected.  Concentrate can be recirculated through the system for more efficiency (conserving water) if needed.

7.  The good water goes through gauges to measure TDA (salts) and volume of flow.

8.  This water then goes to your storage tank.  We store about 5000 gallons.  

9.  The water is then pumped out of the storage tanks and goes through your fertilizer injector.  

10.  The water then goes to your plants.

There are little items here and there in the system, but this is basically how it works.  One could skip the charcoal filter, the softener, and the first pump if a small volume is needed.  If the system was at an elevation above your plants, perhaps gravity could even eliminate the second pump.  

Under the sink systems utilize a small tank that fills with city water pressure after going through the membranes.  This low volume tank holds onto this pressure and then lets you empty it at a slow rate for usage.  But this wouldn't work for watering a garden or a lot of plants.

I hoe this helps.

Phil

Jungle Music

[Phil]

William,

BTW, the salts on your leaves are most likely calcium.  The system above would eliminate these deposits.  If you only use a water softener, you will not get calcium but you'll be overloading sodium to your plants.  Simple "filters" won't do the job either.  If you can't go RO, don't overhead water.  Water by drip or by hand.  This way the leaves look nice.

Phil

[Phil]

One more comment about the schematic posted above.  The first filter shown is just to remove  sediment.  It is most often right before the membanes.  You don't want "gunk" fouling the membranes.  This is why it's right before the membranes.  The charcoal filter can release particles of charcoal.  Smaller 20 inch filters typically work fine and need changing every two or three weeks.  The "brine tank" is the salt water you use for your water softener.  It's basically a bunch of salt in water than is available to exchange for the calcium.

Phil

[www.dadluvsu.com]

WOW!!! I really needed some on hands advice.  I didn't want to have to call out the RO companies from around here to make them go through the headache of giving me a quote and then circumventing them by recreating their plans myself...  I wouldn't feel good about that.  Thank you for your help Phil.  I'm working on putting together some cash and will post more as I can.  Ideally, I am hoping to create a system that I could reconfigure a little bit and install in my home at some point...  :cool:

[edbrown_3]

Use a 1-1/4 male bushing with a 1 " reducer in it. you can reduce this to 3/4" for a hosebibb.

Ed

[Phil]

William,

I'd get started with a simple small system.  Maybe one or two membranes and no other fancy stuff.  See how you like it.  You can even get somewhat of a system off of city pressure, but you'll probably have to pump out of the tank to your plants.  If you educate yourself, you can make a very workable system by yourself.

Phil

[www.dadluvsu.com]

That is great advice Phil, but as usual... I can't do anything on small scale...  I get too carried away!  Here's what I have planned so far... (I'm trying to accomplish all this for under $2,000 US)

From my garden hose (city water) I will set up a GE water softener model GXSF40H...  I can get it from Home Depot and it is made by GE so parts should be easy to find and replace if neccessary...  It's features are:

Extra-Large Capacity (40,200 grain capacity)

Electronic-Demand Driven with Status LED and Audible Alarm

Permanent Settings Memory

Efficiency (5100 gpg)

Maximum Hardness Removal (110 gpg)

Maximum Clear Water Iron Reduction (8 ppm)

Approx $550 US

From there I will run the water through a 300 gpd RO/DI system from www.aquariumwaterfilters.com  Thier system called the "Great White" looks like a superb unit...  The filters look a bit pricey to replace at $150 US per filter (3 filters) but if I only have to replace them every 3 to 5 years I should be ok...  The only modification I will make to the system is to have them build my filter with 20" clear canisters instead of the 10"...  Hopefully I won't have to change my particulate and charcoal filters so often and that will help to preserve my RO membranes...  This unit has an integrated pump to get high water pressures to maximize effciency...

Approx. $950 (shipping included)

From there the purified water will go into a 300 gallon food grade poly container...  

Working on a deal to get a tank for $170 US, but if I have to buy a new one they cost around $320-350 US

I will add a float control and shut off valve to the system so the RO process is stopped when the tank is full.  To get the water from the atmospheric tank into the overhead misting system I will use a Flotec 1/2 HP Sprinkler/Utility Pump.  I found it at Home Depot...  

$160 US

[www.dadluvsu.com]

I'm sure there will be an extra $90 in misc hardware etc...  but I think that about does it...  

There are only 2 problems I can forsee...  One, Does there need to be a pump before the water softener...  City water only gets to about 30 psi...  And two, the final pump being used to get the water into the sprinkler system... It's guts are not made for RO water (stainless impeller and etc...)  Is RO water as aggressive as what I have been reading about?  Do I need to purchase the $500 pump with all the stainless hardware built in or can I get by with this one?  

Corey and Phil, I am in total gratitude and respect for your patience with my barrage of questioning...  I promise this will be the last time I ask about it!   I think I've just about got all of the pieces of the puzzle put together!  

Eventually, at some point (maybe 4-5 years from now) I would like to think about moving this water purification system into my home and having RO water in the whole house...  I think it would be a selling point for my home...

:cool:

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Oh, just realized my Flortec Pump won't work, NO PRESSURE SWITCH!  DUH!  For $230 I can buy a 3/4 hp pump with a pressure switch built in at Lowes...  Right across the street from Home Depot...

[Phil]

William,

To make it less confusing, I'll number the comments below and answer some of your questions.

1.  Professional systems utilize a vessel that holds the membrane(s).  For a nursery, a 4 inch diameter membrane is most common.  I started with a vessel that held three membranes.  Now I've expanded to seven (three membranes and four membranes).  With these 4 inch membranes, the rule is that you get one gallon per minute per membrane if everything is ideally working.  The nice thing about this sized vessel is that you can add another membrane (vessel) if your nursery expands.  Typical vessels hold either one, two, three or four membranes.

2.  A smaller system like that above is for someone who is sure they will get enough water from such a system.  If 300 g per day is enough, then go that route.  Seriously calculate out the amount of water you need.  Think about what will be needed when those plants being sprayed overhead have to be hand watered in years ahead when they are in bigger containers.

3.  Select a pump that can deliver enough water to your system.  Right now I'm replacing pumps and aiming at 10g per minute flow into the system.  Pumps are rated by pressure and how much water they pump.  I'll be running my system at somewhere between 120 and 150 psi.  The more membranes you have, the bigger pump and motor you need.  If you had just one 4 inch membrane, you'd have to deliver about 2 gallons (or a bit less) per minute to the system to get your one gallon per minute of permeate.  So, select the pump that does what you need.

4.  You will also  likely need a pump to get water out of your storage tank.  Once again, select a pump that pumps enough water so you can water by hand.  Most garden hoses deliver about 5-6 gallons or more per minute.  With slower rates, one feels he's just standing around accomplishing little.  I doubt you'll always be just overhead spraying.  But, if you're sure it's just overhead forever, lower flow rates might work well.  

5.  If you overbuild your system, that's ok.  It's there for future needs.  Remember, your system works til the tank is full.  Then it waits for you to use the water.   If you only need to water every third day, then the system might sit idle for 2 days, but that's ok.

These are things I'd consider.  Unfortunately, the bigger and better you want it, the higher the cost.  But, a system designed to always be small may be more expensive to upgrade if you expand some day.  So, plan correctly now for the future and seriously calculate the water volume you will need..

Regards,

Phil

[Phil]

Two more things:

1. Stainless tell pumps cost a lot more.  It's merely a question of how long you want the system to last.  It is not mandatory.

2.  The pumps are for forcing water into the membranes and getting water out of the tank.  The water softener should work on city pressure.

Phil

[Neofolis]

If you are only using the output pump to feed misters, you will probably want reasonably high pressure, but low flow rate.  This caused me some diffiuclty with my system as such pumps don't seem to be about in the UK.  Admittedly my system is smaller than what you want, but my pump only has a maximum flow rate of 0.8gpm, but the pressure is up to 160psi.  For overhead watering you would need a much higher flow rate, but not necessarily as much pressure, as the pressure is used to reduce droplet size in the misting system.  Try to ensure that the pump matches your requirements.

I would debate the need for a softener on that sort of system, I may be wrong, but the system youhave shown is just a larger capacity version of my 100gpd system.  I like in a hard water area, my mains has an average TDS of over 300ppm, but my output water is <5ppm most of the time.  My prefilters, carbon block, sediment, etc., need replacing every 6 months, but they are relatively cheap and my RO membrane only needs replacing every three years and may last longer if it is flushed regularly.  I flush daily.

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Phil, I took your advice, (It sounded to me like you may have been the voice of experinence with regards to enlargment capabilities) oversizing the filtration can't hurt, so I took the plunge...  Presento, The TITAN 2500!!!

Upgraded with the stainless RO housings, concentrate re-circulation, and product and concentrate flow meters

[Neofolis]

I've taken some photos.  This should illustrate how basic and simple my setup it.  It will also illustrate that I have not really finished the installation, despite the fact that the system has been running for some weeks.

Here is the RO Unit

The unit has three pre-filters, larger and smaller sediment filter and a carbon block filter.  It has an inline TDS meter to check TDS levels of incoming mains water and my product water.  It also has a pressure gauge, which is useful as it will not only indicate if the incoming pressure is sufficient, but will also tell me if the system is losing efficiency, as the pressure will drop as the RO membrane ages.  Water is fed directly into the pre-filters from my mains supply, through the green tube.  My product water is fed out through the blue tube and my waste water through the red tube.  At the moment the unit is just sat between my water butt and the drain, so the red tube is held in the drain, while the blue tube is going into the water butt.  The tubes all have excessive length, as I need to decide a more permanent location for the unit, where I can offer frost protection.

[Neofolis]

Another demonstration of how the installation is not very permanent yet.  This is the water butt.

As you can see the product water is currently just being fed into the top of the water butt.  I have a proper shut off valve for it and there is also a non return valve, already fitted before the system, so that the system doesn't remain pressurized when the shut off valve is closed.  I will install the shut off valve when I have arranged a more permanent location for the RO unit.

The 3/8" black tube is going directly to the diaphragm pump which feeds the misters.  Again this obviously requires a more permanent installation.  I haven't decided yet, whether to put a tank connector with a 3/8" reducer into the lower part of the water butt or to replace the standard water butt tap with a proper hose union bibcock and feed the system indirectly from that.  As you can see no pressure is required to feed the pump, as it is self priming, although I did need to syphon the water through the tube to the pump and bleed out any air.

[Neofolis]

The pump is in my polytunnel as out of the way as I could get it, whilst still leaving easy access.

The 3/8" tube from the water butt feeds directly into the pump on the left, whilst the outlet on the right has a 3/8" - 1/4" reducer, which then feeds a 1/4" tube going directly to the misting nozzles.  The pump is plugged into a repeat cycle timer, also in the polytunnel and which I forgot to take a photo of.  Basically, if there is power to the pump, the misters will be running, so the timer is just turning the pump and hence the misters on and off at preset intervals.  This could easily be done with a humidity sensor, leaf moisture sensor or any other control device.

[Neofolis]

This photo shows the misting nozzle at the end of the run of 1/4" tube.

As you can see the nozzle has just been tied to the frame of the polytunnel with wire ties.  The tube can be teed off to feed up to seven additional nozzles.  The nozzles are mounted at the highest point of the polytunnel and pointing towards the centre of the tunnel to avoid too much moisture ending up on the plants.  I could have used nozzles with one way or two way bulkheads to allow me to direct them more precisely, but this would also have meant that the nozzles would end up being slightly lower and therefore nearer to the plants, so I chose the simple fixed nozzles design to maximize height.

The resulting mist is very fine and with good air circulation doesn't cause much moisture to end up on the plants, if it is only running for short bursts.  Without the air circulation offered by my 18" air movement fan, the mist condenses on the plants almost immediately, so good air circulation is a must unless you are using the system for mist propagation or overhead watering.

Due to the very small droplet size of the mist, my humidity levels are raised with almost no decrease in air temperature.  If anything my air temperature has increased slightly, as the thermostat on my heater seems to respond better to the wetter air, although this is obviously at the expense of the heater running slightly more.  Without the heater, I dare say substantial temperature reduction would be possible, if required, during summer months.

You will also notice that the whole system uses John Guest Speedfit connections allowing for very easy setup and also making it easily demountable, so things can be moved or changed as required.

I suppose the next thing I want to waste money on in an air to air heat exchanger, so that I can bring fresh air in from outside and remove the stale air inside without too much loss of heat.  The downside would be a loss of humidity, but this would be minimal and less of an impact on the internal environment compared with having to leave the polytunnel door open each time I want to replace the inside air.

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Wow Corey!  You are most certainly a devoted palm enthusiast!  Thank you for taking the time to illustrate a breakdown of how your system works...  I'm sure the palms will aprreciate the extra humidity.  

[Neofolis]

I think, "Wow Corey, you are quite mad", would have been more appropriate.  I calculated that I have spent about £3000 ($6000) on ways to keep my palms happy in the past year, on a collection of palms that is probably worth about £200, if that.  I have to say my setup is rather less impressive than yours, but then it's more than ample for my little polytunnel.

[Phil]

William,

Like any project, the more it goes on and the more you do, the more you come to understand and learn.  Since my last post in September, my pump went out.  I decided to upgrade to a 10 stage stainless steel pump with a 3 HP motor.  But, this increase in pressure caused other problems.  I had to rework my automatic pressure shut offs.  I am now operating at about 150 psi pressure.  I switched to "low pressure" membranes.  Now, with some additional tweeking, we are producing 8 gallons of permeate a minutes with a concentrate discard of 2.5 gallons.  That really makes me happy.  TDS on the permeate is about 10.  So, when my employee who waters gets going, I can more than keep up with him.  On hot days with three watering, the tank level drops.  I think you'll find as you go along that you'll change things in your system.  At least, that's what's been happening out here.  Remember, when TDS goes up and you're not sure why, it's typically the membranes.

Phil

[www.dadluvsu.com]

WOW!!! That waste to product ratio is awesome!!!  With my currect setup I am getting about what you were before...  3-4 ppm TDS and a product to waste ratio of about 1.3:1   I was not aware of a low pressure membrane...  I am going to have to look into this...  I think my membranes are fouled and may need to be replaced...  After the system sits for a couple days and then turns on my TDS is in the hundreds...  Before I run out and start buying those expensive new membranes I am going to take apart my waste valve...  I'm hoping it's just gunked up...  The guy who owned the RO unit before me didn't maintain it well I have a feeling...  Anyhow, here is a photograph of my finished project for this thread...

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Hey Phil, Where do you get those low pressure membranes?

[Phil]

The membranes I use are 4 inch in diameter and about four feet long in a plastic vessel.  I'm currently using 7 membranes in two vessels.  When I got started, I don't even know if there were "low pressure" membranes available.  But, this Fall I discovered them and when I switched, my production went way up.  I've come to understand that standard membranes are typically high pressure.  This means to have good production, you've got to get pressures of about 200 psi.  Nursery operations are not going to typically achieve this.  When I look at your pictures, I'm not sure where your membranes are.  Are they inside the smaller stainless steel vessels?

Phil

[www.dadluvsu.com]

That's correct Phil...  The stainless cylinders are where the 2.5" membranes are housed...  Replacement costs are going to get expensive if I stay with the 2.5" membranes compared to the 4"

I am contemplating changing to one large 4" membrane...  Maybe the R.O. UltraTec HF4 Membranes model 4040, thats why I was curious to find out if you get your membranes locally or if you order them from somewhere...

One large filter is $330 vs 3 - 2.5" filters @ $240 a piece ($720! )

Prices are from this online dealer

http://www.excelwater.com/eng....78#comm

[David_Sweden]

Hello guys,

I wonder if anyone can report difference of plant vigour & greenness with/without RO filtered water for watering (not asking about misting): Does RO water ever really have any proven effect, or is it just theoretical?

Because I've used an RO system since beginning of October on my Lytocaryum weddellianum, Licuala Peltata var. Sumawongii, Licuala Ramsayi and Rhopalostylis baueri, for testing if it improved some minor brown tipping which is not worse than I can accept it but would be nice to know if RO helps. And result seems to be that RO has no effect on this, and also no or little effect on how often I have to leach. Tap water here is not very hard: 20-24 mg Ca/l or 2,7-3,3 °dH (German unit). I'm thinking perhaps hardness of water is less of a problem that one would think? On the other hand, leaching about 3 times/year is very important for my plants, which to me indicates residue in soil is from fertilizer not tap water. I use ½ dose regular liquid fert. I have measured cleanness with a digital "TDS meter", I never calibrated it but tap water shows "106" and RO filtered water 002 (even 001) so it seems to work as intended.

[Hammer]

On 7/15/2017, 6:48:04, David_Sweden said:

Hello guys,

I wonder if anyone can report difference of plant vigour & greenness with/without RO filtered water for watering (not asking about misting): Does RO water ever really have any proven effect, or is it just theoretical?

Because I've used an RO system since beginning of October on my Lytocaryum weddellianum, Licuala Peltata var. Sumawongii, Licuala Ramsayi and Rhopalostylis baueri, for testing if it improved some minor brown tipping which is not worse than I can accept it but would be nice to know if RO helps. And result seems to be that RO has no effect on this, and also no or little effect on how often I have to leach. Tap water here is not very hard: 20-24 mg Ca/l or 2,7-3,3 °dH (German unit). I'm thinking perhaps hardness of water is less of a problem that one would think? On the other hand, leaching about 3 times/year is very important for my plants, which to me indicates residue in soil is from fertilizer not tap water. I use ½ dose regular liquid fert. I have measured cleanness with a digital "TDS meter", I never calibrated it but tap water shows "106" and RO filtered water 002 (even 001) so it seems to work as intended.

I am not currently using RO for plants but I did extensivelyin the past.  Here in Southern California our water tends to be pretty high in disolved solids.  I notice a significant difference in using RO vs Tap waterm here.

If you have low amounts of solids in your Tap then the advantages may be minimal if any.

There are some plants that are sensitive to certain chemicals added to municipal water.  Using RO for those may be the only noticeable benefit for you...provided you have sensitive plants.

By the way, the conservatory at The Huntington Gardens uses only RO and creates a "rain storm" to water overhead.  Their plants look incredible.

[David_Sweden]

Thanks Adam, that's very interesting.

I can also add that I noted great improvement for my Kentia 2-3 years ago which I belive is to a large extent due to leaching, this was when I started to make a big effort to learn about how to take care of potted palms. Back then I lived in a city with average hardness (5,9°dH) so even with that water leaching had great effect. It had been in the same pot & soil (peat based) for many years and never gained height and had quite a lot of brown tips but looked surprisingly well besides that. 2 weeks ago I gave it away to a "palm house" since it's outgrown my apartment after I learned to treat it right. Main errors before that I'd say was no leaching and a combination of over- and underwatering.

I wish I hadn't believed so much in RO that I assumed I could leach just twice per year.. And since I got RO equipment in October, I decided it would we convenient to leach in December and summer, so I waited from October to now, planning to do leaching on my vacation in August, but did it last weekend. The Licualas would have prefered I did it earlier. The Kentia had no ill effect.  Live and learn I suppose. We will get through this I think.. :-/

[XYZ]

Just an observation that to remove some of the chemicals I think Hammer refers to (fluoroamine comes to mind), I suspect that you need an ion exchange resin or similar filter as fourth stage after sediment>activated crabon>RO membranes. IMO, it's mostly cloud forest palms that resent unfamiliar chemicals in their environment. 

Also, please be aware that RO or distilled water in soilless media without a fully balanced fert that includes all key micros will produce weird nutrient deficiencies in some palms that can be very hard to unwind.

[Hammer]

5 hours ago, stone jaguar said:

Just an observation that to remove some of the chemicals I think Hammer refers to (fluoroamine comes to mind), I suspect that you need an ion exchange resin or similar filter as fourth stage after sediment>activated crabon>RO membranes. IMO, it's mostly cloud forest palms that resent unfamiliar chemicals in their environment. 

Also, please be aware that RO or distilled water in soilless media without a fully balanced fert that includes all key micros will produce weird nutrient deficiencies in some palms that can be very hard to unwind.

Well said.

[David_Sweden]

Thanks Jay. By "unfamiliar chemicals", do you mean chemicals covered by the 4th stage or a "plain" 3-stage RO-plant? And I never heard of cloud forest palms before, are there any such palms common at all as indoor plants? I googled cloud forest palms to learn what this is and found this site, so now I at least have seen one!

I know that distilled water can be unsuitable for watering since it's pH will flip between very high and very low due to lack of so-called "buffer" (a buffer basically is a mix of weak acid and weak base, so that it is in total neutral, and remains close to neutral even if a bit of acid or base is added, while an unbuffered fluid in that situation would become wildly acid or alkaline), but I thought RO water like rain water is ideal? In any case I have >50% peat mix in my soil mixes and this contains a buffer in itself (since the peat is a bit acidic and the manufacturers add lime which is a mild base to make it neutral). Also, I add liquid fert at every watering (a type known to have all micronutritients and good balance for plants in general), but I don't think it affects buffering. So I think RO should be fine, at least with peat based soil mixes, right? Or should I add 20% tap water to the RO water as buffer? I have "pH paper" but can this be used directly on the soil? And Jungle Music's Phil has described above how they use RO for all plants and recommend it for indoor growers but he does not mention 4th stage or problems with buffering of nutrition deficiencies (and he only uses 15% peat moss).

Not based on anything deeply scientific but during winter I boiled water every morning for humidity and noticed a lot of hard-to-remove yellow-brownish coating in that pot, and also when looking at root balls of older palms here during repotting I've seen similar residue mainly on bottom roots, and I'm thinking maybe the goo in my water is to a large extent inert, that maybe only goo that is salt that produces ions affect the plants. In other words: Even if water in soil appears not clean, maybe not an issue?

I have this 3-stage RO-plant, one reason for choosing it was that it has a bit higher flow than most of that size (I measured 290L in 24h). Also got this TDS meter. Looks like this in my bathroom (but tidied up a bit after this pic..):