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why doesnt south florida have many tall palmettos


ThatPalmGuy

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when i went to south florida around tampa and then sanibelle, most of the cabbage palms werent too tall, and they were scarcley over 40ft.  50ft?  I saw maybe 1 or 2 that hight.  but here in crystal river and inverness and surrounding areas the swamp cabbages that are there are 50-70ft and are common.  why is this?  

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Everything is smaller down south......:lol:

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David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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Powerful winds knock them down, people cut them down, they grow slower with less water, there are all sorts of explanations. More ways for them to die there. I have noticed, with Sabal minor that the northern parts of their ranges seem to have bigger Sabal minor while the southern parts had more, but they are not as big. 

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PalmTreeDude

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With the introduction of non indigenous species cabbage palms by some (not me) are to be considered "garbage palms" by some in Florida. I think they will tolerate high winds fine. Like Royals they have been accustomed through the years to hurricane force winds. It's in their genes. You must remember that there are only 3-4 palms indigenous  to Florida. Sabal Palmetto (cabbage palms), Sabal Minor,  Rhapidophyllum hystrix (needle palm), and maybe a type of Royal (in the extreme south (like the Keys). Everything else you see has been introduced from elsewhere in the world.

 

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17 minutes ago, Andy8201 said:

With the introduction of non indigenous species cabbage palms by some (not me) are to be considered "garbage palms" by some in Florida. I think they will tolerate high winds fine. Like Royals they have been accustomed through the years to hurricane force winds. It's in their genes. You must remember that there are only 3-4 palms indigenous  to Florida. Sabal Palmetto (cabbage palms), Sabal Minor,  Rhapidophyllum hystrix (needle palm), and maybe a type of Royal (in the extreme south (like the Keys). Everything else you see has been introduced from elsewhere in the world.

 

There are a lot more than three. Some comman ones you did not list are Saw Palmetto and Sabal etonia (in the scrub). There are still more.

PalmTreeDude

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Sabal palmetto were regrettably scorned. Research has shown them highly wind resistant.  There are tall ones in the wild in central and southern Florida, where there's tall bald cypresses or oaks.  

Fla. climate center: 100-119 days>85 F
USDA 1990 hardiness zone 9B
Current USDA hardiness zone 10a
4 km inland from Indian River; 27º N (equivalent to Brisbane)

Central Orlando's urban heat island may be warmer than us

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On 2/23/2017, 8:46:44, Andy8201 said:

You must remember that there are only 3-4 palms indigenous  to Florida. Sabal Palmetto (cabbage palms), Sabal Minor,  Rhapidophyllum hystrix (needle palm), and maybe a type of Royal (in the extreme south (like the Keys). Everything else you see has been introduced from elsewhere in the world.

We've got 11 native palms:

Sabal palmetto

Sabal etonia

Sabal minor

Serenoa repens

Rhapidophyllum hystrix

Roystonea regia

Acoelorrhaphe wrightii

Leucothrinax morrisii

Thrinax radiata

Coccothrinax argentata

Pseudophoenix sargentii

  • Upvote 8

Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

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On 2/23/2017, 7:46:44, Andy8201 said:

With the introduction of non indigenous species cabbage palms by some (not me) are to be considered "garbage palms" by some in Florida. I think they will tolerate high winds fine.

 

I used to feel the same way, I thought Sabals where a poor substitute for Washies. My opinion recently has changed 100%. I love our native Sabals.  My only complaint is that nurseries charge twice as much for our native S. texana than they do for imported palmettos, which are naturalizing big time in my part of TX, they are vey commonly used commercially.   I bought a S. texana last weekend, $100 per foot of CT vs $50 for the FL Sabals. Of course, if I were in FL I'd be planting palmettos. I love them both and I'm pretty much done with Washies. 

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But in defense of Washies, it can take a Sabal ten years to trunk, whereas in ten years a robusta will be the size of a two story house. :)

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One other thing that may be overlooked here is that many were / are removed for development.  It just happens just as it does with any other type of trees.  Developers often don't care what has to be removed in order to build on any given site.  While very tall sabals are not unheard of in well developed / urban areas, they are less often seen as most have been summarily removed for building.   In more rural / less developed or protected areas you will likely find far more very tall ones, so long as those areas have not been disturbed for a very long time and its trees left in tact. (I.E. old growth). 

I will never understand why people consider Sabal Palmetto "trash trees".  They are anything and everything BUT that.   I just think that is a bunch of palm snobbery.  :D

 

Zeeth covered the native palms perfectly.    The only other one I might sort of kind of add to that list would be Cocos Nucifera since they have been present for likely longer than our country has, in very southern areas like the keys.  I have read that they are considered native, but not "endemic". Meaning native but they did not originate there.  That goes to the whole discussion of what constitutes native and how long does a plant have to be in a place to be considered "native", and the differences between "native" and "endemic". 

 

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Lightening and hurricanes

 

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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29 minutes ago, _Keith said:

Lightening and hurricanes

 

 I bought a house in 2000 that was built in 1986. The only trees it came with were three CIDP's and six robustas. Thank you previous owner. Hurricanes were no issue, but four of the six robustas  were struck by lightning, during two events, one of which destroyed half the electronics in my house. The problem is they quickly out grow everything in the neighborhood and become natures best lighting rod.  

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I've noticed they get taller when they grow naturally in hammock areas with large oaks and other trees. They seem to grow taller faster in these areas not only because they have been there for a long time but because they have to compete for light with the sorrounding trees to survive. Unfortunately much of south Florida's native areas have been damaged. I agree with the statement that trees are generally smaller in south Florida than they are in north Florida. Soils are usually more sandy and more poor in nutrients down there and in many areas there is a layer of limestone rock only several feet below the surface of the soil. 

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I agree that lightning is the number 1 killer of tall palms in Florida. More lightning strikes occur in Florida than any other place in the US.

"If you need me, I'll be outside" -Randy Wiesner Palm Beach County, Florida Zone 10Bish

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On 2/23/2017, 8:46:44, Andy8201 said:

With the introduction of non indigenous species cabbage palms by some (not me) are to be considered "garbage palms" by some in Florida. I think they will tolerate high winds fine. Like Royals they have been accustomed through the years to hurricane force winds. It's in their genes. You must remember that there are only 3-4 palms indigenous  to Florida. Sabal Palmetto (cabbage palms), Sabal Minor,  Rhapidophyllum hystrix (needle palm), and maybe a type of Royal (in the extreme south (like the Keys). Everything else you see has been introduced from elsewhere in the world.

 

Way off--we have, give or take, a dozen species of palm native to Florida.

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