Sabal minor At Their Range Limits?

26 posts in this topic

This is my first time trying to post photos here, so I hope this works:

A few from Oklahoma, all north of I-40:

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Edited by Ben OK
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Oklahoma City Zoo mostly. One pic is from OSU-OKC and one of the small ones is from Tahlequah OK

 

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Nice photo gallery.  Really happy palms!  There's a few doing nicely at the Norfolk Botanical Garden.  I'll be able to post photos next week. 

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Easily one of the most survivable palms in cold climates.  Love them!

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I pasted these images on another thread earlier but I thought I would share them here as well. These photos are of some wild S.Minor towards their natural Northern limits of its range here in GA. These palms extend well into the state out of the coastal plains into the piedmont. As a landscape plant they seem to grow basically all over the state, although they do naturally stop the farther you get into the piedmont from the coastal plains. I took these photos around the end of October last year.

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Southern Kansas I know there are some growing unprotected but sited close to buildings for some minimal protection.

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@PalmTreeDude - Not within their native range... but, here are two Sabal minors (growing together) in my garden in central Pennsylvania, zone 6b.  They have never been protected other than some thick mulch placed around them in the winter months.  They are situated on the south side of my home in a sun-exposed location protected from the north and northwest winter winds.  Last winter, they experienced single digit lows and extended periods below freezing (up to 120 hours straight).  Really no damage apart from some minimal browning on a few of the older leaf tips.

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Sabal_Minor_Palms_on_Monkey_Island%2C_NC

 

Here is a picture from the wiki showing the northernmost strand known just south of the Virginia border in the currituck sound. I have a seedling, the one that survived my grandmas cats on their trip back from florida, that I plan on putting out and doing absolutely nothing to protect much like my yuccas!

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Gary Hollar actually arranged a visit to Monkey Island with a scientist, because you need some excuse to legally step foot on the island.  He also once talked to an old lady who lived there as a child of a caretaker of the island when it was a hunting lodge.  Monkey Island is the northernmost verified native sabal locale on earth.  It is a diificult paddle from the Whalehead Club to there in a canoe (bad idea on my part), but maybe not so bad in a kayak.

 

That being said, a report from an early 1800's botanist put sabal minor as far northwest as near Williamsburg, but he may have been confusing yucca for a sabal.  Hey gators used to be native here.  Minors grow weedy in my yard, but the "weeds" aren't great at outcompeting other vegetation, except in mulched beds.  Somehow they grow through the mulch to root down.  I "accidentally" dropped hundreds of sabal seeds around Hampton Roads years ago.  There was one growing along the Nolan Trail in Newport News.  For a few years, the management tolerated it, but eventually the chopped it down when modifying the trail.

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12 hours ago, VA Jeff said:

Gary Hollar actually arranged a visit to Monkey Island with a scientist, because you need some excuse to legally step foot on the island.  He also once talked to an old lady who lived there as a child of a caretaker of the island when it was a hunting lodge.  Monkey Island is the northernmost verified native sabal locale on earth.  It is a diificult paddle from the Whalehead Club to there in a canoe (bad idea on my part), but maybe not so bad in a kayak.

 

That being said, a report from an early 1800's botanist put sabal minor as far northwest as near Williamsburg, but he may have been confusing yucca for a sabal.  Hey gators used to be native here.  Minors grow weedy in my yard, but the "weeds" aren't great at outcompeting other vegetation, except in mulched beds.  Somehow they grow through the mulch to root down.  I "accidentally" dropped hundreds of sabal seeds around Hampton Roads years ago.  There was one growing along the Nolan Trail in Newport News.  For a few years, the management tolerated it, but eventually the chopped it down when modifying the trail.

It would be awesome if some were found on the Virginia coast, for all we know there could be a few lone plants in woodlands around the southern part of North Landing River or around the Back Bay. Virginia Tech has a document (  https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pubs.ext.vt.edu/HORT/HORT-60/HORT-60-PDF.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiciuv2uNzWAhVG04MKHXOuADsQFggkMAA&usg=AOvVaw2AslfzBfIZNdowDY5SprDg ) that states that Sabal minor are nextive the extreme Southeastern Virginia. I "accidentally" might have dropped a few hundred Sabal palmetto seeds here last August. 

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Edited by PalmTreeDude
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On 8/23/2017, 10:56:41, mdsonofthesouth said:

Sabal_Minor_Palms_on_Monkey_Island%2C_NC

 

Here is a picture from the wiki showing the northernmost strand known just south of the Virginia border in the currituck sound. I have a seedling, the one that survived my grandmas cats on their trip back from florida, that I plan on putting out and doing absolutely nothing to protect much like my yuccas!

While these are the most northern located naturally occuring sabal species they are not from the coldest natural locale. This would easily go to the native stand in northern alabama (zone 7a)not the oklahoma mccurtian population (zone 8a)as some believe. 

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18 minutes ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

While these are the most northern located naturally occuring sabal species they are not from the coldest natural locale. This would easily go to the native stand in northern alabama (zone 7a)not the oklahoma mccurtian population (zone 8a)as some believe. 

There is a stand in 7a Alabama?! Where in Alabama?

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1 hour ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

While these are the most northern located naturally occuring sabal species they are not from the coldest natural locale. This would easily go to the native stand in northern alabama (zone 7a)not the oklahoma mccurtian population (zone 8a)as some believe. 

Any info about this population? 

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I am pretty sure these palms are nearing their limits, https://www.google.com/maps/place/Congaree+National+Park/@33.817369,-80.8142409,2a,24y,35.97h,81.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3ph2561xPsoMlSBeQ98UxA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x21e8761583db239a!8m2!3d33.7917025!4d-80.7694244 at Congaree National Park, S.C. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't Sabal minor in South Carolina just go a little more inland past than Columbia?

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5 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

I am pretty sure these palms are nearing their limits, https://www.google.com/maps/place/Congaree+National+Park/@33.817369,-80.8142409,2a,24y,35.97h,81.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3ph2561xPsoMlSBeQ98UxA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x21e8761583db239a!8m2!3d33.7917025!4d-80.7694244 at Congaree National Park, S.C. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't Sabal minor in South Carolina just go a little more inland past than Columbia?

Not sure about Columbia, but they are wild in the SC piedmont about 30 miles north of the fall line, near Clarks Hill lake.  Like the McCurtin OK population discussed elsewhere on palmtalk, they inhabit very non-characteristic habitat (upland hillsides) wherein the coastal plain populations are invariably in wetlands.

Steve

 

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On 10/6/2017, 3:38:58, Zeeth said:

Any info about this population? 

South side of weiss lake. 

 

6 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

I am pretty sure these palms are nearing their limits, https://www.google.com/maps/place/Congaree+National+Park/@33.817369,-80.8142409,2a,24y,35.97h,81.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3ph2561xPsoMlSBeQ98UxA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x21e8761583db239a!8m2!3d33.7917025!4d-80.7694244 at Congaree National Park, S.C. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't Sabal minor in South Carolina just go a little more inland past than Columbia?

Are you talking about nearing their cold limits? Usda interactive puts that park at 13.9F, solid zone 8.

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@TexasColdHardyPalms - have you ever seen plants for sale from this Weiss Lake, Alabama population? I have the Sabal minor 'McCurtain County' and 'Warren, Arkansas' ecotypes.  Would be cool to add this northeastern Alabama form.

 

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On 10/8/2017, 9:48:08, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

South side of weiss lake. 

 

Are you talking about nearing their cold limits? Usda interactive puts that park at 13.9F, solid zone 8.

Not cold limits, I know they are insainly cold hardy. I ment range as in where they naturally grow.

Edited by PalmTreeDude
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I am living in two states at the moment.  Where I am from, coastal Virginia is the border of zone 8a/7b, but inside of 8a.  Where I work and live more than half the week is North Carolina east of Charlotte zone 7b almost 8a.  I see slightly more subtropical plants in 7b NC than my home county.  The all time lows are worse here in NC, but the temperature swings are considerably greater than  the same zone near the coast.  Thus I believe that the NC 7b/8a is less harsh on palms than VA 8a/7b.

Ironically, although I've been growing palms at my Virginia house for over 13 years, I do not nearly have the tallest palm in the neighborhood.  The tallest windmill nearby is a full two stories tall at least.

But like you said PalmTreeDude, many of us sow our wild palm seeds around Virginia, and thousands of sabals have been planted in Hampton Roads, so it would be difficult to distinguish between native sabals and naturalized sabals at this point.  But almost certainly, sabals were once native to Virginia, even if hundreds or thousands of years ago, just like palmettoes were native to the Outer Banks a couple hundred years ago, when alligators roamed Southeast Virginia.

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On 10/11/2017, 12:14:23, VA Jeff said:

I am living in two states at the moment.  Where I am from, coastal Virginia is the border of zone 8a/7b, but inside of 8a.  Where I work and live more than half the week is North Carolina east of Charlotte zone 7b almost 8a.  I see slightly more subtropical plants in 7b NC than my home county.  The all time lows are worse here in NC, but the temperature swings are considerably greater than  the same zone near the coast.  Thus I believe that the NC 7b/8a is less harsh on palms than VA 8a/7b.

Ironically, although I've been growing palms at my Virginia house for over 13 years, I do not nearly have the tallest palm in the neighborhood.  The tallest windmill nearby is a full two stories tall at least.

But like you said PalmTreeDude, many of us sow our wild palm seeds around Virginia, and thousands of sabals have been planted in Hampton Roads, so it would be difficult to distinguish between native sabals and naturalized sabals at this point.  But almost certainly, sabals were once native to Virginia, even if hundreds or thousands of years ago, just like palmettoes were native to the Outer Banks a couple hundred years ago, when alligators roamed Southeast Virginia.

 

Some say that needle palms and sabal minor could have gone north of Maryland in their peak, kinda like how Spanish moss used to be prevalent in the tide water/easter peidmont regions of Maryland and Virginia as well as SE and eastern shores before the little ice age receded it further south. 

 

On 10/6/2017, 2:45:37, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

While these are the most northern located naturally occuring sabal species they are not from the coldest natural locale. This would easily go to the native stand in northern alabama (zone 7a)not the oklahoma mccurtian population (zone 8a)as some believe. 

 

Thats gives me hope as Im in a solid 7a that rarely sees bellow Z8 temps.

Edited by mdsonofthesouth
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To add to what @TexasColdHardyPalms mentioned about Sabal minor in NE AL, there are a few scattered populations there near Centre, south of Weiss Lake.  I was just there a couple of weeks ago.  It is a zone 7b, according to the latest USDA plant hardiness zone map.  I can’t seem to upload any pictures from my iPhone, so I’ll try to make a separate post later.

By the way, these palms are further north than the McCurtain County palms also!  They are above 34°N.

Edited by Bigfish
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Guess I can post one picture per post, lol.

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Edited by Bigfish
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This is several palms clumped together.

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Mccurtain county minors that i saw today and posted in another thread

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