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Controversial Trachies in Milan


pin38

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I thought this was interesting. Starbucks planted over 30 T. fortunei in the plaza near the Duomo Cathedral in Milan and it sparked protests and even vandalism. It goes to show the great transformative symbolism that palms carry, maybe more so than any other type of plant. Apparently this isn't always a positive thing to people.  I know that palms aren't really part of Milan's identity, though these aren't the first in the city.  I'd especially love to get the opinions of any Italians or Europeans on these boards on introducing "exotic" species (especially palms) to historic sites and structures.

http://www.wral.com/milano-vice-palm-trees-near-milan-s-cathedral-spark-debate/16535816/

https://www.rt.com/news/378003-milan-palm-trees-protest/

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Mike in zone 6 Missouruh

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Hi Mike,

Very strange that it makes such an issue and protest, T.fortunei are very common in Ticino (swiss part close to Milano) and on Lake of Geneva coast,  it's an alien but it's not so kitch, and if they are in pots, it's obviously a temporary installation.

I  am much more upset in Montreux (where my office is located) when they decorate the christmas market with "christmas palms" T.fortunei in pots which they bring only for that occasion, when actually T. fortunei grows very well in gardens thanks to our microclimate in Montreux. 

Besides, I am sure that T. fortunei already belongs to historical gardens ( from XIXth century)  in the northern part of Italy, especially along the lakes around Milano.

Thanks for posting.

 

Sorry, I replied before reading the report, I actually agree with Marco Bay and can understand the palms are not in pots but really definitely planted. We in Switzerland also suffer of the "indigenous Vs exotic" controverse, and urban botanical and dendrological collections like Montreux lakeside promenade is in danger!

 

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5809129ecff1c_P1010385copie3.JPG.15aa3f5

Philippe

 

Jungle Paradise in Sri Lanka

 

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Hmm. There's obviously deeper issues here than the palms themselves.

I never would have imagined that palms would be a lightning rod for anti-immigrant groups.

Thanks very much for sharing! It's good to be knocked out of normal orbit at least once in a while.

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Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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And:

As it's already written, most of the europeans, when they see a Trachycarpus , think there is a palm belonging to hot and dry climates like deserts, which is a real mistake.

For us, Trachycarpus means mountainous humid and cool climates, even with snow, but this real origin is difficult to explain when using this species in urban situations like places or streets.

58adf09f05ee6_Capturedcran2017-02-2221.1

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5809129ecff1c_P1010385copie3.JPG.15aa3f5

Philippe

 

Jungle Paradise in Sri Lanka

 

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Personally, I like them added to historic places in the right ways. Furthermore, I doubt they will become invasive.  I also agree with the architect Bay. Furthermore, if these idiots  BS protesting had any sort of clue about anything at all,  they would know that a true symbol for that part of the world they apparently hate is the Phoenix Dactylifera (Date / Medjool Date Palm).    As for the rest of the nonsensical BS, ignorance and hate Etc...(I could go on but I wont) people like that are what is wrong with this entire planet. :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

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Just now, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

Personally, I like them added to historic places in the right ways. Furthermore, I doubt they will become invasive.  I also agree with the Bay. Furthermore, if these idiots  BS protesting had any sort of clue about anything at all,  they would know that a true symbol for that part of the world they apparently hate is the Phoenix Dactylifera (Date / Medjool Date Palm).    As for the rest of the nonsensical BS, ignorance and hate Etc...(I could go on but I wont) people like that are what is wrong with this entire planet. :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

Oh my god, don't get upset, it's sadly a very common worldwide disease: IGNORANCE and NONSENSE.

BTW: they became invasive in Ticino (read IPS "Palms" magazine) and in Montreux gardens; it seems crows love these fruits and do further a good job.

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5809129ecff1c_P1010385copie3.JPG.15aa3f5

Philippe

 

Jungle Paradise in Sri Lanka

 

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One picture of the garden I designed for the Casino de Montreux, 15 years ago: ( I am a landscape designer...)

P1200778.thumb.JPG.1d438bee2fe13ff1e259a

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5809129ecff1c_P1010385copie3.JPG.15aa3f5

Philippe

 

Jungle Paradise in Sri Lanka

 

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1 minute ago, doranakandawatta said:

Oh my god, don't get upset, it's sadly a very common worldwide disease: IGNORANCE and NONSENSE.

BTW: they became invasive in Ticino (read IPS "Palms" magazine) and in Montreux gardens; it seems crows love these fruits and do further a good job.

Interesting.   I know they CAN be in some places, but I was just thinking that in that square with so much hardscaping around that it would be difficult.   I know that in VA Beach both those and Sabal Palmetto, while not yet "invasive" certainly do seed and spread.  Ive seen quite a few young Trachies and S. Palmetto in some strange places down there.   

Also, I do get upset because it makes me very angry, especially burning the damn trees.

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I have to slap myself a few times, once in a while. For me, palms symbolize the good life in a nice climate.

The Italian hate groups aren't the only ones who disagree. Some people I've met recall them as a symbol of oppression, after being forced to trim some CIDPs without proper equipment. (I would certainly run from that, too.)

And, I've met a few who hate Royals for the destruction they can wreak on cars parked beneath them.

But it's not the palms' fault! But not everyone wants to listen.

 

  • Upvote 7

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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5 minutes ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

Interesting.   I know they CAN be in some places, but I was just thinking that in that square with so much hardscaping around that it would be difficult.   I know that in VA Beach both those and Sabal Palmetto, while not yet "invasive" certainly do seed and spread.  Ive seen quite a few young Trachies and S. Palmetto in some strange places down there.   

Also, I do get upset because it makes me very angry, especially burning the damn trees.

... in that square with so much hardscaping around that it would be difficult. 

You're right, it's impossible.

The issue ( if it is one issue) is already in Milano suburbs gardens where many owners plant One Trachycarpus at the corner of the terrasse !
Real issue is when forest and natural spaces are close to these gardens (really IPS magazine is a very good information, you must have got the magazine last 
year)

 

5809129ecff1c_P1010385copie3.JPG.15aa3f5

Philippe

 

Jungle Paradise in Sri Lanka

 

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....who hate Royals for the destruction they can wreak on cars parked beneath them.

I LOVE plants being able to destroy vehicles.

It changes from cars crashing against trees and killing the poor guy!

 

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5809129ecff1c_P1010385copie3.JPG.15aa3f5

Philippe

 

Jungle Paradise in Sri Lanka

 

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11 minutes ago, doranakandawatta said:

One picture of the garden I designed for the Casino de Montreux, 15 years ago: ( I am a landscape designer...)

P1200778.thumb.JPG.1d438bee2fe13ff1e259a

Looks awesome! I love the palms near lakes in Switzerland and northern Italy (Como, etc.), some of my favorite landscapes.

Mike in zone 6 Missouruh

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3 minutes ago, doranakandawatta said:

... in that square with so much hardscaping around that it would be difficult. 

You're right, it's impossible.

The issue ( if it is one issue) is already in Milano suburbs gardens where many owners plant One Trachycarpus at the corner of the terrasse !
Real issue is when forest and natural spaces are close to these gardens (really IPS magazine is a very good information, you must have got the magazine last 
year)

 

Im sure I saw it. I don't get a paper version tho.  I believe its in my email.    To me invasive is when it begins hurting native flora / fauna.  Otherwise I consider that to be a nuisance.   Personally  I would be thrilled with having that issue where I lived. LOL.   The nuisance seedlings I mean.  NOt damaging invasive. 

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16 minutes ago, doranakandawatta said:

One picture of the garden I designed for the Casino de Montreux, 15 years ago: ( I am a landscape designer...)

P1200778.thumb.JPG.1d438bee2fe13ff1e259a

That is fantastic!!!! 

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1 minute ago, pin38 said:

Looks awesome! I love the palms near lakes in Switzerland and northern Italy (Como, etc.), some of my favorite landscapes.

Likes this:
DSCN8310.thumb.JPG.ece4eea85fc4d1b3497d5DSCN8315.thumb.JPG.cc96ad312a07ae4932639DSCN8326.thumb.JPG.b898a924524d6eedbfe26DSCN8359.thumb.JPG.aa8d6f2331f58504ba3c4DSCN8371.thumb.JPG.dea1aeed61e829bfa5aa2

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5809129ecff1c_P1010385copie3.JPG.15aa3f5

Philippe

 

Jungle Paradise in Sri Lanka

 

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11 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

I have to slap myself a few times, once in a while. For me, palms symbolize the good life in a nice climate.

The Italian hate groups aren't the only ones who disagree. Some people I've met recall them as a symbol of oppression, after being forced to trim some CIDPs without proper equipment. (I would certainly run from that, too.)

And, I've met a few who hate Royals for the destruction they can wreak on cars parked beneath them.

But it's not the palms' fault! But not everyone wants to listen.

 

LOL! I saw this first hand when in South Florida.  I was walking by a car that had a giant dead frond on it and the person was cursing up a storm at the tree, which was a good 15 feet off the road.   I just kind of laughed at it.   I almost said to them, well its not the trees fault, it didn't make you park under it.  LOL   Thats my view.   I always pay attention to where I park in terms of hazards, including trees.  I actually refuse to park under trees if at all possible. Sap, bird crap, debris, etc.... no thanks.  Im very OCD about keeping a fairly pristine vehicle.  

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Im very OCD about

Thanks to you on Palmtalk Forum I learnt a new expression: OCD !!!  which is a TOC in french :D

 

5809129ecff1c_P1010385copie3.JPG.15aa3f5

Philippe

 

Jungle Paradise in Sri Lanka

 

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2 minutes ago, doranakandawatta said:

Im very OCD about

Thanks to you on Palmtalk Forum I learnt a new expression: OCD !!!  which is a TOC in french :D

 

lol!:floor:   Yes OCD  Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.   I don't have it, but Im very much  that way about my vehicle and a few other things being neat and tidy.  That said, I would never ever go overboard trimming a palm.  :bemused:

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1 hour ago, doranakandawatta said:

....who hate Royals for the destruction they can wreak on cars parked beneath them.

I LOVE plants being able to destroy vehicles.

It changes from cars crashing against trees and killing the poor guy!

 

Yeah, if it's someone else's not mine.

I have to get to Palm Society meetings somehow.

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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Ignorance is really tough to combat. It's sad to see so much ignorance and intolerance all over the world. Also, someone should tell these morons that T. Fortunei is native to China/India, and that China and India are not in Africa. Man, makes me angry. 

  • Upvote 2

Palos Verdes Estates - coastal Los Angeles - 33°45'N 118°24'W

On a cliff, 2 blocks from the Pacific Ocean. Zone 10b - Sunset zone 24

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11 hours ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

Interesting.   I know they CAN be in some places, but I was just thinking that in that square with so much hardscaping around that it would be difficult.   I know that in VA Beach both those and Sabal Palmetto, while not yet "invasive" certainly do seed and spread.  Ive seen quite a few young Trachies and S. Palmetto in some strange places down there.   

Also, I do get upset because it makes me very angry, especially burning the damn trees.

They are spreading and self seeding in the Uk, Netherland and Belgium, seedlings are popping up right under the tree.
Birds love the seeds as well and because of that I noticed already hunderds or seedlings further away from the palm up to 100 meters, between the council plantings. 

At the moment more and more gardens have Trachycarpus planted, because they remind lots of people to warmer places. I'm sure that specially in the west side of Holland it could be invasive species in the future.  

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Southwest

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 I'm sure that specially in the west side of Holland it could be invasive species in the future.  

So you'll get a Dutch Riviera :)

5809129ecff1c_P1010385copie3.JPG.15aa3f5

Philippe

 

Jungle Paradise in Sri Lanka

 

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5 hours ago, doranakandawatta said:

 I'm sure that specially in the west side of Holland it could be invasive species in the future.  

So you'll get a Dutch Riviera :)

That would be nice but they don't like to be right on the coast strong salty winds make them looks miserably, Trachycarpus wagnerianus should be a better option but they got sold less to people then fortunei. 

In cities, specially with the urban heat effect they are going nicely so that could change a bit? Councils from The Hageu and Rotterdam for example already planted a few palms in the city, but this could be more of course. 

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Southwest

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30 minutes ago, bubba said:

Beautiful Trachies. Lake Como Lake Como Lake Como...

In Montreux we enjoy the lake of Geneva, also called Lake Léman. ... quite far from your old Monkey jungle :)

BTW: where is this: North of the old Monkey Jungle ?

5809129ecff1c_P1010385copie3.JPG.15aa3f5

Philippe

 

Jungle Paradise in Sri Lanka

 

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On 2/22/2017, 10:55:28, pin38 said:

I thought this was interesting. Starbucks planted over 30 T. fortunei in the plaza near the Duomo Cathedral in Milan and it sparked protests and even vandalism. It goes to show the great transformative symbolism that palms carry, maybe more so than any other type of plant. Apparently this isn't always a positive thing to people.  I know that palms aren't really part of Milan's identity, though these aren't the first in the city.  I'd especially love to get the opinions of any Italians or Europeans on these boards on introducing "exotic" species (especially palms) to historic sites and structures.

http://www.wral.com/milano-vice-palm-trees-near-milan-s-cathedral-spark-debate/16535816/

https://www.rt.com/news/378003-milan-palm-trees-protest/

Maybe they are afraid that the palm tree's would create a distraction.  Instead of looking at the Cathedral people might say "Wow, cool!  Look at those palm trees!"

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Without any further comments, the central square and the main avenue in Athens was surrounded by many dactylifera plants in the second half of the 19th century. Since then all dactylifera's have been replaced with CIDP's and after the decimation of latter through rpw potted Chamaerops plants and Trachies appeared as substitutes. I think I can feel the protesters.

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