Very Old Date Palm

[Pal Meir]

This Phoenician Phoenix dactylifera »DäQäL« is ca. 2.300 years old and 15 m tall, er … I meant only 15 mm tall:

[Sanips]

is it an antique arab coin?

[Pal Meir]

14 minutes ago, Sanips said:

is it an antique arab coin?

It is an ancient Phoenician / Punic aes coin (Ø 18mm) from QaRT HaDaST / Carthago ca. 300 BC.

[GMann]

Really cool. What is "DäQäL"? Is that Punic for Date Palm?

The fruit is huge! I expect that is just artistic exaggeration.

Edited February 8, 2017 by GMann

[Phoenikakias]

16 minutes ago, GMann said:

Really cool. What is "DäQäL"? Is that Punic for Date Palm?

The fruit is huge! I expect that is just artistic exaggeration.

Of course, but the length of the fruiting stalk is proportionally correct. As corect is the depiction of the short fruiting and flowering stalk of theophrasti

[PalmTreeDude]

That is amazing! Date palms are ancient! And we love them!

[Pal Meir]

7 hours ago, GMann said:

Really cool. What is "DäQäL"? Is that Punic for Date Palm?

The fruit is huge! I expect that is just artistic exaggeration.

Yes, the consonants DQL are supposed to be the Punic word for date palm pronounced as dæqæl; cf. also דֶקֶל.

[GMann]

On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2017‎ ‎10‎:‎39‎:‎00‎, Pal Meir said:

from QaRT HaDaST / Carthago ca. 300 BC.

That is "Carthage" in English if anyone was wondering. The city of Hannibal.

[Pal Meir]

@Phoenikakias Is this palm from Trôas Phoenix dactylifera or Ph theophrasti?

[doranakandawatta]

On 9/2/2017 05:10:55, Pal Meir said:

Yes, the consonants DQL are supposed to be the Punic word for date palm pronounced as dæqæl; cf. also דֶקֶל.

I almost can hear you pronouncing deaqael, but it seems you have an accent. 

[Phoenikakias]

8 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

@Phoenikakias Is this palm from Trôas Phoenix dactylifera or Ph theophrasti?

Interesting question Pal. Me and some other people in Greece, who are interested both in  palms and archaeology, have the opinion that the short inflorescence/infructescence of theophrasti is represented stylistically by ancient artists through a small 'heart' inside the crown, and in deliberate contrast to long, low hanging infructesceces of the real dactylifera, just like in the first picture of this thread. So the picture in question seems having this peculiar, short,central core and therefore it fits in to the described theophrasti pattern. Below you can see the famous fresco from Akrotiri in Threra depicting  a scenery of a river bank. Note the red core in the Phoenix clump. Some argue that the leopard indicates an african landscape, nevertheless it used to exist also a subspecies in Anatolia (Panthera pardus tulliana). 

Edited February 26, 2017 by Phoenikakias

[GMann]

The plants on that fresco don't look anything like date palms. They look like someone drawing a picture of some exotic landscape they have not actually seen themselves and just being imaginative and making it up.

[Pal Meir]

Another quite old date palm, fruiting and with seven (!) fronds, 21 [m]m tall, dated AD 92/93:

[Alcibiades]

Wallpainting grave of Sennedjem (13th century BCE).  Datepalms with saplings and Hyphaene thebaica in the centre. 

 

[Phoenikakias]

Amazing, Alkibiades.

[Alcibiades]

If we talk about ancient depictions of datepalms we definetly have to mention assyrian, babylonian and achaemenid art.  As an example the famous garden party relief from the palace of Ashurbanipal showing a date palm. Collecting trees and palms for the various royal gardens was a common task for every assyrian and achaemenid king. An interesting explanation about the image of the king as the royal gardener in the court propaganda can be found in "From Cyrus to Alexander" by Pierre Briand. In the words of king Tiglat-Pileser (8th century BCE) :  

I took cedar, box-tree, Kanish oak from the lands over which I had gained dominion – such trees which none among previous kings, my forefathers, had ever planted – and I planted them in the orchards of my land. I took rare orchard fruit which is not found in my land (and herewith) filled the orchards of Assyria.

[Pal Meir]

Old Date Palm in London 1986-08-20: 

[Pal Meir]

Not so old (c. AD 565) date palms in Ravenna 1985-07-26: 

[Pal Meir]

Here a most scientific study of the growth rate of minted ancient date palms from c. 400 BC to c. AD 100: 

 

[GMann]

I have to say I like the Punic depiction the most (300 BC), the thick trunk and arching leaves almost look like a Canariensis.

[Pal Meir]

21 hours ago, GMann said:

I have to say I like the Punic depiction the most (300 BC), the thick trunk and arching leaves almost look like a Canariensis.

The same with me: I too like the Siculo-Punic palm most. ———

So far as I know the date palm was the only palm which was minted on coins (bronze, silver, gold) in the ancient world. The whole tree (not only a frond) was minted in Skêpsis (ΣΚΗΨΙΣ), Carthago (Qart-Ḥadašt, Siculo-Punic mints) and Judaea/Jisra’el (IVDAEA, ישראל), together with animals also in Ephesos (ΕΦΕΣΟΣ) with a stag and Siculo-Punic with a horse. Besides there is the series of IVD[A]E CAPTA coins issued at first by Vespasianus since the capture of Jerusalem in AD 70.

[GMann]

You might be interested in Pliny's Historia Naturalis, written in Roman times, Book 13, Chapters 6-9 deals with the known palms of the ancient world, some of which, based on the descriptions appear to be unknown today.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D13%3Achapter%3D9

This description is fascinating:

Quote

In the southern parts of the world, the dates known as "syagri, hold the highest rank, and next after them those that are called "margarides." These last are short, white, and round, and bear a stronger resemblance to grapes than to dates; for which reason it is that they have received their name, in consequence of their close resemblance to "margaritæ," or pearls. It is said that there is only one tree that bears them, and that in the locality known as Chora. The same is the case also with the tree that bears the syagri. We have heard a wonderful story too, relative to this last tree, to the effect that it dies and comes to life again in a similar manner to the phoenix, which, it is generally thought, has borrowed its name from the palm-tree, in consequence of this peculiarity; at the moment that I am writing this, that tree is still bearing fruit. As for the fruit itself, it is large, hard, and of a rough appearance, and differing in taste from all other kinds, having a sort of wild flavour peculiar to itself, and not unlike that of the flesh of the wild boar; it is evidently this circumstance from which it has derived its name of "syagrus."

 

 

Edited June 12, 2017 by GMann

[MattyNativeSeed]

Relevant to this thread I think.  Have you guys heard that the "extinct" Judean date palm was resurrected from 2000 year old discovered seeds?  The tree used to be widespread through the Jordan river valley area, but was wiped out by the Romans when they took over, to try to cripple the local economy and make them dependent on the empire.

I don't think it's revival is new news, I think it happened in the '60s.  But I think it made the news cycle again because the tree is now seeding!  http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/extinct-tree-resurrected-ancient-seeds-now-dad-002838

[GMann]

On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2017‎ ‎7‎:‎42‎:‎59‎, Pal Meir said:

So far as I know the date palm was the only palm which was minted on coins (bronze, silver, gold) in the ancient world.

Not so, browsing the internet I have just discovered an ancient coin with Chamaerops humilis!

From the Greek town of Kamarina in eastern Sicily, 5th Century BC.

Edited October 18, 2017 by GMann

[Pal Meir]

On 18.10.2017, 15:30:29, GMann said:

Not so, browsing the internet I have just discovered an ancient coin with Chamaerops humilis!

From the Greek town of Kamarina in eastern Sicily, 5th Century BC.

[Laaz]

[Laaz]

Hell, my state has the palmetto quarter... 

 

[Pal Meir]

Could this 2,250 years old date palm from Spain be a Phoenix iberica?

[Phoenikakias]

On 3/7/2017 at 7:50 PM, GMann said:

The plants on that fresco don't look anything like date palms. They look like someone drawing a picture of some exotic landscape they have not actually seen themselves and just being imaginative and making it up.

It seems that also other people share my impression

[Pal Meir]

Here the 4 date palms togther in a row;

[Hillizard]

After 2,000 Years, These Seeds Have Finally Sprouted: Six date seeds as old as the Dead Sea Scrolls are now flourishing as trees on a kibbutz.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/02/how-to-grow-a-date-tree-from-2000-year-old-seeds/606079/

I wish more palm species had seeds that stayed viable this long!

 

 

[Hillizard]

1 hour ago, Hillizard said:

After 2,000 Years, These Seeds Have Finally Sprouted: Six date seeds as old as the Dead Sea Scrolls are now flourishing as trees on a kibbutz.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/02/how-to-grow-a-date-tree-from-2000-year-old-seeds/606079/

I wish more palm species had seeds that stayed viable this long!