Wait, Red Mangroves Are Native to the Carolinas?!

[PalmTreeDude]

According to the USDA Plant Database, Red Mangroves are native to the Carolinas, is there anymore info on this?

Link: https://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=RHMA2

 

 

Edited January 13, 2017 by PalmTreeDude

[Eric in Orlando]

I seriously doubt it. They only grow up to about Daytona Beach and Cedar Key. They are the most cold sensitive of the 3 mangroves in FL (red, white and black) Maybe the propagules wash ashore there. Prolonged temperatures below about 25-26F will severely damage or kill them back.

[Gonzer]

As is the ubiquitous Yucca gloriosa which at times seems to grow in every other yard here in Southern Cal.

[PalmTreeDude]

2 hours ago, Eric in Orlando said:

I seriously doubt it. They only grow up to about Daytona Beach and Cedar Key. They are the most cold sensitive of the 3 mangroves in FL (red, white and black) Maybe the propagules wash ashore there. Prolonged temperatures below about 25-26F will severely damage or kill them back.

The only place I could see them having a chance is in the Charleston area or Hilton Head area, but even those are zone 8b/9a. I wonder why they are on there? 

Edited January 14, 2017 by PalmTreeDude

[Laaz]

Sure, I fish in the mangroves... Right next to the coconut plantation.  

[NorCalKing]

59 minutes ago, Gonzer said:

As is the ubiquitous Yucca gloriosa which at times seems to grow in every other yard here in Southern Cal.

Almost as common as yucca elephantipes. 8/10 yards.

[tropicbreeze]

5 hours ago, PalmTreeDude said:

The only place I could see them having a chance is in the Charleston area or Hilton Head area, but even those are zone 8b/9a. I wonder why they are on there? 

They got their information here:

Weakley, A.S. 1996. Flora of the Carolinas and Virginia. Unpublished.

If you can get a look at that you might get an answer.

Propagules can drift great distances and if still in the warmer part of the year can establish seedlings. However, first sign of cold weather they'd be dead. Maybe Weakley believes being able to establish a seedling naturally constitutes being a native so he included them. I wonder if he ever found any coconuts that managed to sink some roots into the sand as well?

 

[RedRabbit]

Eric is right, north of Daytona is just marsh.

[Eric in Orlando]

Red and white mangroves extend up into southern Vlusia county. Black mangroves are the hardiest and grow up to about St. Augustine.

[PalmTreeDude]

10 hours ago, tropicbreeze said:

They got their information here:

Weakley, A.S. 1996. Flora of the Carolinas and Virginia. Unpublished.

If you can get a look at that you might get an answer.

Propagules can drift great distances and if still in the warmer part of the year can establish seedlings. However, first sign of cold weather they'd be dead. Maybe Weakley believes being able to establish a seedling naturally constitutes being a native so he included them. I wonder if he ever found any coconuts that managed to sink some roots into the sand as well?

 

I looked on some other plant maps and some said coconuts are native to North Carolina... I am assuming a  coconut washed up from somewhere.

Edited January 14, 2017 by PalmTreeDude

[Xerarch]

I've seen some, pretty wild inaccuracies on that USDA plant database. There is no way red mangrove is surviving year to year in the Carolinas. 

[Silas_Sancona]

Carolinas aside, I wonder which Mangrove species, if any, might survive anywhere around the Salton Sea, or Colorado River Delta /top of the Gulf of CA. 

[JasonD]

I recall once seeing that the New Zealand mangrove species ( Avicennia marina I think) had established a colony in San Diego's Mission Bay, but I think it's been eradicated.

[Austinpalm]

Both red and white mangrove as well as buttonwood can be found along the Texas coast now. Several propagule producing red mangroves can be found at the mouth of the Rio Grande as well as other scattered locations as far north as Port Lavaca.. White mangrove is much more restricted (a few wash over cuts on Padre Island). Buttonwoo ((Conocarpus) seems seems to be expanding in the same wash over cuts. Previously red mangrove has occurred in Texas in very low number between hard freezes.  I am unaware of the previous occurrence of white mangrove or buttonwood in Texas. 

[tropicbreeze]

The Mangroves that grow at the highest latitude are Avicennia marina var. australasica, White or Grey Mangrove, at 38.7° South. These are in Victoria Australia, and the same are also in Northland New Zealand as far south as 38.1°. They can't grow along high energy coastlines so are restricted to bays and estuaries, their other restriction being temperature.

[JasonD]

That info about the Avicennia marina var. australasica is quite interesting. I wonder whether they could survive farther north than San Diego here in California. I presume water temperature has a lot to do with their viability, apart from air temperature and protection from surf and strong currents.

[L.A.M.]

On 1/16/2017 at 8:26 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Carolinas aside, I wonder which Mangrove species, if any, might survive anywhere around the Salton Sea, or Colorado River Delta /top of the Gulf of CA. 

Black mangrove, probably. They're already native along most of the Gulf of California as well as areas where the Sahara Desert meets the Atlantic Ocean, so they can clearly withstand low humidity. Yuma doesn't even get freezes in most winters, nor does Palm Springs - not that black mangroves can't stand freezes.

[Silas_Sancona]

4 minutes ago, L.A.M. said:

Black mangrove, probably. They're already native along most of the Gulf of California as well as areas where the Sahara Desert meets the Atlantic Ocean, so they can clearly withstand low humidity. Yuma doesn't even get freezes in most winters, nor does Palm Springs - not that black mangroves can't stand freezes.

Wow that's some digging into the old threads  Lol..

Black is native to the N. Gulf ( CA ) for sure..  How far north is a question since not too many people roam that area, outside Puerto Penasco at least. 

Wouldn't be surprised if it is found growing in the CO. River Delta close to the Gulf.  Also possible any Black Mangrove " groves " which may have grown in those areas may have been cut down / removed, esp around Puerto Penasco in the past ..An assumption anyway since it is plenty warm there for them to grow.

Current Inat. observations for both Red and White Mangrove stop at about the latitude of Tiburon Island / Bahia de Los Angeles / Isla Smiths.  One or both may grow a bit farther north than that, but, if so, might be hiding out in currently un explored areas.

Warm enough, up to roughly where Black Mangrove extend for Red and White as well, imo.. So i'd expect someone to stumble upon isolated / newly establishing specimens at some point.

Sally Lightfoot Crabs, an assumed " tropical " Crab sp. that one could see as an indicator species for a climate warm enough to support the above mentioned -more tender- Mangrove sps. has been observed as far north as Isla San Luis ( 2016 ), just N.W. of Bufeo on the Baja Norte mainland.  Bet their range extends further north than that.

[L.A.M.]

13 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Wow that's some digging into the old threads  Lol..

Black is native to the N. Gulf ( CA ) for sure..  How far north is a question since not too many people roam that area, outside Puerto Penasco at least. 

Wouldn't be surprised if it is found growing in the CO. River Delta close to the Gulf.  Also possible any Black Mangrove " groves " which may have grown in those areas may have been cut down / removed, esp around Puerto Penasco in the past ..An assumption anyway since it is plenty warm there for them to grow.

Current Inat. observations for both Red and White Mangrove stop at about the latitude of Tiburon Island / Bahia de Los Angeles / Isla Smiths.  One or both may grow a bit farther north than that, but, if so, might be hiding out in currently un explored areas.

Warm enough, up to roughly where Black Mangrove extend for Red and White as well, imo.. So i'd expect someone to stumble upon isolated / newly establishing specimens at some point.

Sally Lightfoot Crabs, an assumed " tropical " Crab sp. that one could see as an indicator species for a climate warm enough to support the above mentioned -more tender- Mangrove sps. has been observed as far north as Isla San Luis ( 2016 ), just N.W. of Bufeo on the Baja Norte mainland.  Bet their range extends further north than that.

Yeah. I actually wonder why people aren't planting black mangroves along the Outer Banks to prevent them from eroding like they are in Louisiana's Mississippi River Delta. I mean, not all of the Outer Banks are warm enough even for black mangroves, but they could probably be planted north to at least Cape Hatteras because the Gulf Stream prevents it and the Outer Banks south of it from getting below 20 degrees Fahrenheit on any meaningfully regular basis. The vast majority of the Outer Banks are in Zone 9a - pretty much the minimum for black mangroves. They're native sporadically along the barrier islands of the Mississippi and Alabama Gulf coasts too, which tend to be in Zone 9a rather than 9b or 10a, and those areas tend to get more year-to-year variation than the OBX (albeit still less so than inland areas of Texas like College Station and Austin that'd be warm enough on paper to plant but precarious long-term). If the Outer Banks aren't saved, storm surge will become a much bigger issue for the Inner Banks too, leading to disastrous consequences for communities as big as New Bern.

I also wish the USA and Mexico would collaborate to build a canal to flood the Salton Sea and plant black mangroves along the new shoreline so Yuma gets a bit more precipitation than it does now and can desalinate to save its agriculture (some of which can pretty much only be grown there or in swampy and overpopulated South Florida without being imported, making it a national security concern). I mean, some parts of the Inland Empire around Palm Springs are below sea level, but they may not have to flood the entire basin up to sea level to have an effect - just significantly above what it currently is, and perhaps having the dam have locks so ships can reach the area to compensate the flooded areas economically and hydroelectric turbines.