Unexpected Yellowing and Leaves dying off

[RobustaEnvirons]

Hello everyone! I've recently started to notice that the leaves of my potted Washy are yellowing and browning. I live in Toledo Ohio and so I can only keep my Washies outdoors in the warm months of April-September. This particular washy was steaming along nicely all warm season. I had to bring it inside the house around the final week or so of September-early October. I keep it in my South-Southwest facing bay window and its got a heater duct below it on the floor (below the ledge).

This washy was doing very well up until about a week or so ago. I had to snip off its oldest leaf because that leaf had yellowed at the tip and finally completely turned brown. That wasn't unexpected since it was the oldest leaf and I knew it was on the way out. But, within the last 5-7 days I've noticed that now 2 of the other larger leaves are turning yellow (and probably soon brown). This is alarming to me, seeing as nothing in their environment has changed other the amount of available sunshine per day. I water them once every 2-3 weeks and I've been sure to keep them hydrated. I let it dry out between watering. Our house is always between 73F-78F day & night without letup. So I think I've covered all the bases on its requirements. The middle most sphere is green and lively, and also the second-most and third-most leaf is vibrant too. But, its just the two oldest leaves are now taking their turns dying off. Its a shame since it was thriving and put all these leaves out over the course of the spring/summer. 

The only thing I can think of is that the palm can get enough food from the sunshine to maintain the large leaves. This I can do little about if its truly the cause. We now only are getting 2-3 days a week of sunshine since its Fall/Winter. Since I live with family, I don't have the means of using a sunlamp (my grandma won't allow it). But, I don't know what else to consider. Its been trucking along very nicely right up past Thanksgiving (the next day I snipped off the dead oldest leaf, leaving the leaf-base). I only really noticed that the two leaves are yellowing today honestly. I just leave it sit on my bay-window and it normally prospers nicely. My other smaller washy that I sprouted from seed back in late July is thriving right next to this larger one (its got no signs of yellowing at all).

Is this just a case of the palm trying to balance out its metabolism with the available daily sunshine and its leaves? 

I've provided pictures of all its leaves and various angles too.     

  

Edited December 1, 2016 by RobustaEnvirons

[RobustaEnvirons]

[RobustaEnvirons]

[RobustaEnvirons]

[ExoticPalms]

This is interesting. I grow a more matured washingtonia robusta indoors and Maybe around 3-4 weeks ago 4 of my fronds were attacked similarly one by one. Since there is shockingly limited information on this site for finding out specific issues, I researched elsewhere. I took another close look at the yellowing, but I noticed that they were also spotted, just like yours with dark little spots, which is a VERY important observation. Started from the bottom to the top, it was the set in root fungus or beginning of rot. I figured I had not much else to loose since it spread potentially lethally before I could even figure out what was wrong or what to do. I'm sure what I did was not the "correct" thing to do, but I DID end up saving my Mexican fan palm after snipping the dried out dead fronds off and basically watered the roots with hydrogen peroxide for two days. I let the soil soak up the peroxide and then dry out. I simply waited a week and soaked the roots again with some bottled water. It's been a while with no more yellowing or discoloration and the fan has now started to grow out wider and spreading out nice and green still. I DO however use a large led grow panel in my home and I would highly recommend one growing these indoors. I grow Christmas palms too and they're finally starting to grow out new leaves thanks to this grow light. They need lots of direct sun, there is no way up north during these months it's getting any sufficient light, no way whatsoever. During the summer you can see palm trees flourish up north which is great, but during the winters, it's depressing for palms. Tackle the potential root rot which might be your problem too, and then get some light on those things.... I would not ignore the lighting either. 

[RobustaEnvirons]

15 hours ago, ExoticPalms said:

This is interesting. I grow a more matured washingtonia robusta indoors and Maybe around 3-4 weeks ago 4 of my fronds were attacked similarly one by one. Since there is shockingly limited information on this site for finding out specific issues, I researched elsewhere. I took another close look at the yellowing, but I noticed that they were also spotted, just like yours with dark little spots, which is a VERY important observation. Started from the bottom to the top, it was the set in root fungus or beginning of rot. I figured I had not much else to loose since it spread potentially lethally before I could even figure out what was wrong or what to do. I'm sure what I did was not the "correct" thing to do, but I DID end up saving my Mexican fan palm after snipping the dried out dead fronds off and basically watered the roots with hydrogen peroxide for two days. I let the soil soak up the peroxide and then dry out. I simply waited a week and soaked the roots again with some bottled water. It's been a while with no more yellowing or discoloration and the fan has now started to grow out wider and spreading out nice and green still. I DO however use a large led grow panel in my home and I would highly recommend one growing these indoors. I grow Christmas palms too and they're finally starting to grow out new leaves thanks to this grow light. They need lots of direct sun, there is no way up north during these months it's getting any sufficient light, no way whatsoever. During the summer you can see palm trees flourish up north which is great, but during the winters, it's depressing for palms. Tackle the potential root rot which might be your problem too, and then get some light on those things.... I would not ignore the lighting either. 

How much Hydrogen Peroxide did you drop in there when you watered it for two days? 4oz a each day? 8oz each day? I can try watering it with Hydrogen Peroxide for two days and see what happens, like you said. Can Hydrogen Peroxide cause harm? 

Its hard to believe that my palm has fungus or root-rot though, since I barely ever water it. I water it once a week with 8oz of water. Its got the dry furnace heat drying it out constantly, so I figured that once a week is adequate. There is a furnace vent directly below it on the floor (just over the bay window ledge). The soil is always dry as well. For a few weeks I held off from watering too much since it had gnats. My Washies always seem to attract gnats when I bring them in for the Winter. They are fine all Spring/Summer long and then I bring them inside and the gnats appear. I spray for them once every Sunday though. I got rid of them last year.

I just can't help but wonder if this is just all caused from the lack of sunshine these days. Last year when my Washy was a small seedling it did a similar thing, but never burnt all the leaves up. It only had 1-2 leaves back then. And it yellowed the leaves slowly over time, working its way down the leaf. But, it regenerated the leaves it lost and has grown larger and more leaves since (during the Spring/Summer).    

Edited December 3, 2016 by RobustaEnvirons

[PalmatierMeg]

Lack of light is a possibility, as is low humidity. If you have forced air heat your palm will dry out even faster. Also, check for spider mites, which thrive in dry air. Northern houses in winter are too dark, too chilly and too dry.

I suggest you carry the palm to the bathtub and give it a long, gentle, tepid shower to rehydrate it. Pouring a few ounces of water on it once or twice a week won't cut it - the water probably drains right through the pot without benefiting the palm. Once the potting mix has dried out, it needs a good soak. After the shower, let pot drain thoroughly. It also isn't a bad idea if, when you take a hot shower, you bring the palm into the bathroom to benefit from all the warm humidity. Running a warm mist humidifier has the same effect. You can also set the pot on a tray of rocks over water. Finally, look into providing additional light via a lamp with a grow light bulb.

[ExoticPalms]

4 hours ago, RobustaEnvirons said:

How much Hydrogen Peroxide did you drop in there when you watered it for two days? 4oz a each day? 8oz each day? I can try watering it with Hydrogen Peroxide for two days and see what happens, like you said. Can Hydrogen Peroxide cause harm? 

Its hard to believe that my palm has fungus or root-rot though, since I barely ever water it. I water it once a week with 8oz of water. Its got the dry furnace heat drying it out constantly, so I figured that once a week is adequate. There is a furnace vent directly below it on the floor (just over the bay window ledge). The soil is always dry as well. For a few weeks I held off from watering too much since it had gnats. My Washies always seem to attract gnats when I bring them in for the Winter. They are fine all Spring/Summer long and then I bring them inside and the gnats appear. I spray for them once every Sunday though. I got rid of them last year.

I just can't help but wonder if this is just all caused from the lack of sunshine these days. Last year when my Washy was a small seedling it did a similar thing, but never burnt all the leaves up. It only had 1-2 leaves back then. And it yellowed the leaves slowly over time, working its way down the leaf. But, it regenerated the leaves it lost and has grown larger and more leaves since (during the Spring/Summer).    

• As far as the amount of HP I used, I just poured maybe 3 ounces around the trunk twice, and I also gave a little soaking inside the crown too. It bubbled for quite some time and after the second time not as much. Since the humidity has lowered tremendously the last month, I'm seeing more growth out of all my palms, all 7 of them inside my kitchen, it's interesting, but I can't complain. Oh yeah, and they're INCHES away from a heater... So... in terms of following proper protocol, I think sometimes you need to respond to what the plant is saying. I'd imagine in the dessert where it's hot and dry, things are hot and dry sometimes anyways ya know? I also cleaned the leaflets and made a little diy fungacide, not sure that did anything, but I'm pretty sure the HP saved the plant from rotting out. Something tells me yours is not drying out because of low humidity though, however that's just my opinion. 

Edited December 4, 2016 by ExoticPalms

[RobustaEnvirons]

1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Lack of light is a possibility, as is low humidity. If you have forced air heat your palm will dry out even faster. Also, check for spider mites, which thrive in dry air. Northern houses in winter are too dark, too chilly and too dry.

I suggest you carry the palm to the bathtub and give it a long, gentle, tepid shower to rehydrate it. Pouring a few ounces of water on it once or twice a week won't cut it - the water probably drains right through the pot without benefiting the palm. Once the potting mix has dried out, it needs a good soak. After the shower, let pot drain thoroughly. It also isn't a bad idea if, when you take a hot shower, you bring the palm into the bathroom to benefit from all the warm humidity. Running a warm mist humidifier has the same effect. You can also set the pot on a tray of rocks over water. Finally, look into providing additional light via a lamp with a grow light bulb.

Ok, I've got the whole palm soaking in a bucket. The water level is up to the rip of the pot. Its getting a good soak. How long should I let it sit there and soak for?

6 hours? 8 hours? I worry that soaking it like this will cause root rot from exposure to water.

Thank you for chiming in. I appreciate the help. 

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

6 hours ago, RobustaEnvirons said:

Ok, I've got the whole palm soaking in a bucket. The water level is up to the rip of the pot. Its getting a good soak. How long should I let it sit there and soak for?

6 hours? 8 hours? I worry that soaking it like this will cause root rot from exposure to water.

Thank you for chiming in. I appreciate the help. 

Only need to let it sit for maybe 20 mins or so   Anything longer does not rally add any value as once the water soaks the soil, it's soaked.    It won't take up anymore   

7 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Lack of light is a possibility, as is low humidity. If you have forced air heat your palm will dry out even faster. Also, check for spider mites, which thrive in dry air. Northern houses in winter are too dark, too chilly and too dry.

I suggest you carry the palm to the bathtub and give it a long, gentle, tepid shower to rehydrate it. Pouring a few ounces of water on it once or twice a week won't cut it - the water probably drains right through the pot without benefiting the palm. Once the potting mix has dried out, it needs a good soak. After the shower, let pot drain thoroughly. It also isn't a bad idea if, when you take a hot shower, you bring the palm into the bathroom to benefit from all the warm humidity. Running a warm mist humidifier has the same effect. You can also set the pot on a tray of rocks over water. Finally, look into providing additional light via a lamp with a grow light bulb.

I'm in 100% agreement  with Meg here on all points.   Unless you have very low lights oalms you're going to need a grow light in winter months at your latitude, unless you have a great south facing window with unobstructed full sun for 5 -6 hours a day.   

I give my palms a shower from time to time as well.   Just to keep slider mites at bay in winter. They've already started on one of my chamaedoreas and as soon as I saw the fiat tiny signs in the shower it went and got a through squirting with the hand held.  

I run multiple warm mist himmidifiers and they effectually keep the humidity in my home around 50-60%.   That is ideal for indoors and it's much better for palms too. 

Keep us updated on things.  Hope you have found some good help here. 

 

KJ. 

[RobustaEnvirons]

1 hour ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

Only need to let it sit for maybe 20 mins or so...

I had to go to bed after setting my Washy in the bucket of water last night around 9:30pm. I got up for work around 4:15pm for work, and saw your post. I immediatly took it out of the water. Is it going to be harmed by letting it sit in the water all that time?

I had to go to bed last night and so I didn't see that I was only supposed to let it sit in the water 20min until this morning. Geez! I just hope I didn't cause root-rot from doing that! I just worry about root-rot since its something I killed a palm from a couple years back from. 

But, should I still try the Hydrogen Peroxcide now in case it was fungas or something? Or, should I not do the HP now? 

Edited December 4, 2016 by RobustaEnvirons

[sashaeffer]

I have various potted palms that due to their size I can't keep indoors so simply keep in garage all winter Robusta's and Filifera's both. I can provide decent light in the garage but I have so many palms crammed together light reaching the fronds is still limited.

One thing I've discovered is to almost stop watering, or at least keep it very limited. 

Remember, they are desert palms so can do fine with little water even in their natural environment so in climates like ours need even less.

Edited December 4, 2016 by sashaeffer
added text and pictures.

[sashaeffer]

I keep everything from a foxtail, rainbow eucalyptus, and king palms all the way up to CIDP's, various Trachaycarpus species and of course in that mix is a couple filifera and robustas as well.

[RobustaEnvirons]

5 hours ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

Only need to let it sit for maybe 20 mins or so   Anything longer does not rally add any value as once the water soaks the soil, it's soaked.    It won't take up anymore   

I'm in 100% agreement  with Meg here on all points.   Unless you have very low lights oalms you're going to need a grow light in winter months at your latitude, unless you have a great south facing window with unobstructed full sun for 5 -6 hours a day. 

I keep my Washies in a South/Soutwestern-facing bay window. Its got sunshine from around 1:30pm until the sensets. Since the sun sets earlier in Winter it gets about 3-5 hours in Winter (increasing each day as Spring nears), and in Spring/Summer I put them outdoors (where they thrive). 

Its just that lately we've been having limited days of sunshine. Sometimes we might only, have 1 or 2 days a week where the sun even comes out at all. But of course it varies by the year, and sunny days increase as we get closer to Spring/Summer. 

My Washies normally make it through Winter on the bay window. 

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

I don't think they will be harmed by sitting in water over night.  It just isn't necessary for that long is all.   You're going to need 6+ hours of sun a day for them.   Hence why we have suggested a grow light.   Not saying they won't make it but manybpalms do struggle in northern climates in winter.  Especially ones used to extremely high light conditions.  

it is true that they are desert palms. However I would be careful with thinking that then they are young. Their ability to tolerate drought is  less when young.  It takes some doing to keep such large tree palms indoors for 4-6 months of the year and keep them perfectly healthy.   I've killed many trying believe me.  For now I personally stick with what I know does great indoors, until I can live in the climate inwant ans that allows them to be left out year round.   That's just me though   

Anyway see if the good soaking helps any.  If you keep having the problem for another week then it could be something else as has been mentioned here.  You might want to get a magnifying glass too, just so you can closely inspect things to make sure no spider mites are starting   You'll see them much earlier with that than you will without one    They can wreak major havoc and they appear in nearly every home that has plants during the winter, especially in dry warm homes in winter.   

 

[realarch]

You guys are so awesome growing this tropical and sub tropical stuff where you live. I remember doing the same thing when I lived in Albuquerque. Dragging it all out in the summer and then back in for the winter.

Roses and tulips just wasn't doing it for me. 

Then I moved to San Diego.......still too cold and dry, then onto East Hawaii with it's year round luxurious warmth, moisture and humidity. What a comfortable blanket to be under.

I agree with Meg, forced heat is a real killer for these plants. 

Best of luck too!

Tim

[PalmatierMeg]

Note that Scott's garage features lots of supplemental lighting. The sheer number of plants helps maintain humidity. And I assume a garage in NE also has supplemental heat. I think it actually may be easier to overwinter a whole group of plants than one small strap leaf seedling. That said, a Washy is way tougher and easier to maintain than a Pinanga (aside from fusarium wilt, that is).

[ExoticPalms]

10 hours ago, sashaeffer said:

I keep everything from a foxtail, rainbow eucalyptus, and king palms all the way up to CIDP's, various Trachaycarpus species and of course in that mix is a couple filifera and robustas as well.

Nice setup, looks great. 

 

 

 

 

[sashaeffer]

2 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Note that Scott's garage features lots of supplemental lighting. The sheer number of plants helps maintain humidity. And I assume a garage in NE also has supplemental heat. I think it actually may be easier to overwinter a whole group of plants than one small strap leaf seedling. That said, a Washy is way tougher and easier to maintain than a Pinanga (aside from fusarium wilt, that is).

Most of that humidity comes from snow melt from wife's car when she pulls in the garage

I can heat the garage if I want with a wall mounted propane heater I have for extreme cold but only use it for prolonged temps outside below 0f as garage is so wel insulated it doesn't ever drop below 32f with no heat. Great for keeping spider mites away!

[PalmatierMeg]

Scott, I trust you don't keep true tropicals, i.e., coconuts, Pinangas etc. in there.

[sashaeffer]

Coconut is inside the house.

the kings and foxtail is as tropical as it gets out there as well as two bizzys

[ExoticPalms]

So what's the update with this one? 

[RobustaEnvirons]

18 hours ago, ExoticPalms said:

So what's the update with this one? 

Well, I did give it a good soaking and I dropped in some HP over 2 days, and its seemed to improve. The leaves have definetly slowed their demise. Despite this the leaves are shriveling towards the ends and the remaining green on them is retreating down each leaf. Theres no saving whats been affected it seems. 

But, all of the other healthy leaves it has are being maintained. Its still got 3 others yet. Its got another large leaf and its not discolored or anything.  The "newest" leaf (still emerging) isn't bothered either. The sphere is in good shape also. Those are all still vibrant green. I haven't done anything different except for soaking it, giving it 4 oz of HP, and also I've been ontop of keeping it hydrated. I don't let it get too saturated, but not dry either. I'm kinda thinking my problem was more leaning towards not watering it enough. My other smaller Washy is doing great, under the same growing conditions. Same 1-2 days a week of sunshine for both. 

So thats seemed to contain the dying off of the leaves. 

[ExoticPalms]

1 hour ago, RobustaEnvirons said:

Well, I did give it a good soaking and I dropped in some HP over 2 days, and its seemed to improve. The leaves have definetly slowed their demise. Despite this the leaves are shriveling towards the ends and the remaining green on them is retreating down each leaf. Theres no saving whats been affected it seems. 

But, all of the other healthy leaves it has are being maintained. Its still got 3 others yet. Its got another large leaf and its not discolored or anything.  The "newest" leaf (still emerging) isn't bothered either. The sphere is in good shape also. Those are all still vibrant green. I haven't done anything different except for soaking it, giving it 4 oz of HP, and also I've been ontop of keeping it hydrated. I don't let it get too saturated, but not dry either. I'm kinda thinking my problem was more leaning towards not watering it enough. My other smaller Washy is doing great, under the same growing conditions. Same 1-2 days a week of sunshine for both. 

So thats seemed to contain the dying off of the leaves. 

Nice, good to hear! Maybe the lower roots weren't getting enough water maybe? I gave my older robusta a full soak about a week ago and let it drain out the bottom a few times; it literally picked itself up from sagging and spread out more the next morning. Since then, it has grown a half inch and has spread out even more. I'm pretty amazed what a good proper watering did. I pretty much figured it wasn't getting enough water to the lower and major root system. Anyways, keep us updated on how they're all doing for sure. 

[RobustaEnvirons]

7 hours ago, ExoticPalms said:

Nice, good to hear! Maybe the lower roots weren't getting enough water maybe? I gave my older robusta a full soak about a week ago and let it drain out the bottom a few times; it literally picked itself up from sagging and spread out more the next morning. Since then, it has grown a half inch and has spread out even more. I'm pretty amazed what a good proper watering did. I pretty much figured it wasn't getting enough water to the lower and major root system. Anyways, keep us updated on how they're all doing for sure. 

Yes, that certainly seemed to be the issue (it seems at least). I think its got a good chance of doing well from now on. Who can say for sure though, but as long as the discoloring doesn't spread to the remaining leaves I think it'll be fine. So far so good. My Smaller Robusta is just steaming along so nicely, it hasn't even seemed to be bothered by anything. So it really caught me off guard to see my larger more mature Robusta losing its leaves and discoloring. Also, I haven't seen a single gnat in a week or so! Every Sunday my grandma sprays the bay window with Raid Flying Insect Spray (she doesn't spray my palms directly) and that's definitely seemed to help, either that or the Hydrogen Peroxide did them in. 

I will definitely keep everybody updated. I love and appreciate all of the Palmtalk community, and I always look forward to learning new things from everyone. One this I've learned is that no matter how much I think I know, there's always something I don't. There will be something I can't figure out and then somebody will come along and contribute their perspective and help out. Its a wonderful community. Thank you everyone- ExoticPalms, sashaeffer, PalmatierMeg, and DCA_Palm_Fan! 

[RobustaEnvirons]

Here are some pictures of how my Washy looks as of right now, overall not too bad. Like I said the leaves are definitly slowing their rate of decline, while the discoloring hasn't yet spread to the 3 remaining leaves. I show my smaller washy also to give you some idea of the growing conditions and how well that specimen is doing versus how my larger one is doing, at only a couple feet away.  

 

[RobustaEnvirons]

[RobustaEnvirons]

My bay window. This angle shows the sunshine pouring in from the south. The bay window is at a western angle, but also has a southwest angle due to be a 3-sided bay window. If there is sunshine, the palms will get it. 

[RobustaEnvirons]

UPDATE: Just a little update on how my Washy is doing. Its doing very nicely. It seems that the yellowing/browning of it leaves has slowed dramatically. Much of the yellowing has turned to brown and the two affected leaves have seemed to somewhat retain what they have left. I think its still working its way down the two affected leaves but at a much slower pace. And the yellowing/browning hasn't spread to the other green leaves, and it doesn't seem bothered to. Both Washies are actually doing quite well though, You might even say they're thriving, albeit at a much slower pace (as you might expect in Spring/Winter). And I believe my larger Washingtonia is even pushing through its first Fan leaf! That fact alone is something I'm excited about as I've been waiting for it to push its first Fan leaf through for a while now.

I'm still not sure the burning of its two leaves (and possible decline) was due to lack of water, fungus, lack of sunshine, or something else. Either way they're both doing very well.     

[RobustaEnvirons]

[RobustaEnvirons]

[RobustaEnvirons]

My smaller Washy is doing great still also! We're steaming through Winter (January 31st) and already just about into February and its thriving! Both of my Washies are doing quite well, but I thought I kinda show how my smallest Washy is doing currently. My smallest Washy was sprouted from seed in late July 2016. Its only ever known this black 1-gallon potting container. Its so strong! 

Edited January 31, 2017 by RobustaEnvirons