Potential "long shot" cold tolerant palms?

[Turtlesteve]

So I'm rather new to palms, and live in zone 8A with warm summers (South Carolina USA).  Choices for palms here are somewhat limited.  I'm trying to identify any "long shot" palms worth trying in zone 8 climates.  It would be especially nice to have pinnate palms other than Butia and associated hybrids (and Jubaea).  I am not really intending to zone push, but to identify palms for which tolerance of severe weather may be underestimated.

I believe there is good reason for such palms to exist.  From a geological perspective, we are in a brief inter-glacial period and temperatures were much colder 12,000-14,000 years ago.  The colder temperatures were more normal, having persisted for a much longer time period.  Many plant species have not or could not have "migrated" since temperatures have warmed and could be well adapted to their local climate during the past ice age.  As an example, in the USA there are a few rare or extinct (in the wild) trees that, once cultivated, prefer colder climates than their native range.  Examples would be franklinia alatamaha or torreya taxifolia.

So with regards to palms, candidates would probably be:

- Uncommon / rare species with some frost tolerance (anything common would be well tested)

- Restricted in native range or distribution (typical of species that stayed put when the ice age ended).

- Native to continental landmasses or adjacent islands (higher likelihood of temperature extremes)

So my first guesses based on some web research might be Taiwan endemics such as Arenga engleri, or species from the Andes (Parajubaea, Ceroxylon quindiuense).

Any thoughts?

-Steve

[PalmatierMeg]

Where in SC are you located? What are your average winter lows? What has been your ultimate lowest temp and when?

Your choices are likely limited to fan palms. Arenga engleri & Beccariophoenix alfredii can tolerate the mid-20s, I believe. Mule palms might survive your winter. Ceroxylon, Jubaea & Parajubaea will have difficulty surviving an east coast hot humid summer. While they can take some daytime heat in dry climates, i.e., Cali, they need a substantial cool down at night to relieve heat stress. East coast summer nights are warm and sultry at best and provide no relief. These species ultimately decline and die from these conditions. And no crownshafted palm can survive your winters without supplemental heat and serious protection.

[Josh76]

Interesting discussion, Steve. What about Satakentia? I've read that they can take down to about 25F but I wonder whether they would recover from lower if they have decent summer heat. Like Meg said, it would be good to know your average winter temps.

[Turtlesteve]

Aiken SC.  Record low is -4F in 1985 (extremely unusual).  The closest historical data I can find for the past decade is the Augusta GA airport, which is at a topographic low (river valley).  They recorded between 15 to 25F yearly lows for the past 10 years, with the exception of 11F in 2014.  I don't have any records for my house but I'm on on a topographic high point.

In terms of palms, Butia does very well, as does cycas revoluta.  I know of people growing mules successfully, and I supposedly there's a mature Jubaea in Rock Hill, SC zone 7B (I can't personally confirm, but it's been referenced on this site).  Our summer heat, especially at night, is not nearly so bad as Florida, and humidity is a bit lower year round.  In July/August we dip below 70F most nights.

Steve

[Turtlesteve]

39 minutes ago, Josh76 said:

Interesting discussion, Steve. What about Satakentia? I've read that they can take down to about 25F but I wonder whether they would recover from lower if they have decent summer heat. Like Meg said, it would be good to know your average winter temps.

So some quick research says the record low on Iriomote island where these are native is 7C and on nearby Okinawa is 3C.  So even if it can't survive zone 8, it's still much hardier than expected based on its native range.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

These are solid in your climate: Trithrinax Campestris, Brahea Decumbens, Brahea Moorei, Nannorhorps Ritcheana, and several Sabals species..  If you are a bit drier and your temps don't stay above 80 for several months in the summer Brahea Armata is solid as they are good in Zone 7B in Texas.

[PalmatierMeg]

If your winters regularly drop to 20F or below, none of the pinnate palms you mentioned can survive without serious protection. That includes Satakentia. Something else to remember is that tropical and many subtropical palms can't take cold precipitation, i.e., winter rain, sleet or snow, so you will have to shield their meristems. Most people don't realize that while SFL has rainy summers, winters are dry. The occasional rain front is warm. I've lived here over 23 years and in all that time I experienced rain below 50F on just one day in 2010. That cold rain was partly responsible for a loss of over 30 species of palms.

My summer humidity may be slightly less that yours but not by much. I live near the coast so mid-summer days usually stay below the mid-90s. In my home stomping ground of metro Washington DC, summer highs can reach over 100F and I'd wager temps in SC are similar. From June through Oct. nightly lows here never fall below 70F, even 75F. The 70F guide marks the beginning/end of rainy season. It turns on/shuts off that quickly. What I'm getting at is that I don't believe Jubaea, Parajubaea, Ceroxylon and most Braheas can't tolerate wet blanket heat & humidity - not for 6 months or even 3. At one time, word was I might be able to grow Brahea decumbens. So, I tried one. It lingered about 2 years before giving up on life.

[Zeeth]

I think a mule palm is your best shot at a tropical looking pinnate palm, but even that will be very marginal.

[RedRabbit]

Acrocomia totai likely could tolerate a few winters, but it wouldn't make it there long term. Worth a shot imo.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

3 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

If your winters regularly drop to 20F or below, none of the pinnate palms you mentioned can survive without serious protection. That includes Satakentia. Something else to remember is that tropical and many subtropical palms can't take cold precipitation, i.e., winter rain, sleet or snow, so you will have to shield their meristems. Most people don't realize that while SFL has rainy summers, winters are dry. The occasional rain front is warm. I've lived here over 23 years and in all that time I experienced rain below 50F on just one day in 2010. That cold rain was partly responsible for a loss of over 30 species of palms.

My summer humidity may be slightly less that yours but not by much. I live near the coast so mid-summer days usually stay below the mid-90s. In my home stomping ground of metro Washington DC, summer highs can reach over 100F and I'd wager temps in SC are similar. From June through Oct. nightly lows here never fall below 70F, even 75F. The 70F guide marks the beginning/end of rainy season. It turns on/shuts off that quickly. What I'm getting at is that I don't believe Jubaea, Parajubaea, Ceroxylon and most Braheas can't tolerate wet blanket heat & humidity - not for 6 months or even 3. At one time, word was I might be able to grow Brahea decumbens. So, I tried one. It lingered about 2 years before giving up on life.

I disagree with Meg. Unlike brahea armata, I dont believe  jubaea has a problem with humidity. I have seen several examples growing just north of houston and in shreveport, not to mention i have 90 15-45g jubaea growing here in Dallas-Fort Worth area. The one on the riverwalk in san antonio has been there for 50+years and that area is a hot, humid, tropical gully in the summer. I truly believe the ones attempted in florida succumbed due to nematode related issues because there are few if any places in florida as hot, humid and oppressive as Houston or Shreveport in June-September. Jubaea is a 7b palm until it has a clean trunk. In 2011 we learned from Martin that the leaves will never burn, but the trunk will freeze and rot killing the tree. If you wrap the trunk it may turn out to be a 7b palm. 

All of the cold hardy brahea do great here in the dallas/fort Worth area and our dew points are above 70 for about 4 months out of the year.  Everything I listed above is good in zone 8. 

[Xenon]

Phoenix canariensis might last a while, foliage starts to burn below about 20F but the bud is pretty hardy. Phoenix dactyfilera seemed to fare a bit worse in a humid freeze (I live just west of Houston). I assumed an established Roystonea regia was the most cold hardy palm with a crownshaft (in a humid subtropical climate), followed maybe by Archontophoenix cunninghamia and Wodyetia. There were Carpentaria, Satakentia, and Archontophoenix alexandrae growing on Galveston Island (zone 9b/10a) and none of them survived while R. regia and Wodyetia did (barely). 

Also, there are some really old Brahea armata and Washingtonia filifera in Galveston. Only the Florida Keys can compete with Galveston's summertime heat/humidity...

Edited November 18, 2016 by Xenon

[JLeVert]

Here is a list of the palms at Aquinas High School on the Hill just across the Savannah River from you.  This will show you what has worked and not worked over the past 30 years.  Come visit if you like.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Palms Aquinas 2016.docx

[JLeVert]

A few pictures around the school.  These pictures are several years old, so the palms are a good bit larger now.

Showing young S. causiarum with S. tamaulipas in the distance

Washingtonia filifera (center), Washingtonia filibusta (right), Jubaea x Butia (silvery left)

Brahea armata

S. uresana

 

[Turtlesteve]

Joseph,

Quite an impressive collection!  I'll have to come visit sometime.  Do you collect/distribute seeds from those that have proven successful? 

 

I am certainly going to try Jubaea, as well as the Sabal's and Brahea's that have proven hardy here.  Still open to any "long shot" suggestions.  What about Arenga micanthra?  Based on native range this seems like on that would take hard freezes.  Anyone tried it?

Edited November 18, 2016 by Turtlesteve

[PalmTreeDude]

If you want a nice palm, but it is slow growing, just plant a already tall Sabal palmetto.

[PaddyM]

Steve - I grew up in Aiken and go back several times per year to visit family. There's a Phoenix canariensis in a private backyard downtown. You can just see it from the street, and I "check up on it" once a year or so. (My family thinks I'm a little crazy/creepy to check on other people's plants.) I've known about the palm for maybe eight or nine years. The leaves get burnt in the colder winters; it maybe has two feet of trunk.

There's another house downtown that has what looks like a Phoenix dactylifera. It has about three feet of trunk.

Neither of these palms looks particularly "robust" or as healthy as ones along the coast, but they've been around for a while and give you a sense of what has survived recent winters. 

[JLeVert]

I've seen A. micrantha and A. engleri tried in Saint Mary's Georgia and Savannah.  A. engleri worked well in Saint Marys, but not too well in Savannah.  I tried it in Augusta, but it had to be covered every winter, so I gave up.  I want to try Tri. campestris again.  I've killed three in containers - too much TLC, I think.  Rhapis excelsa 'Daruma' has been in my yard for years and won't die, although I wouldn't call it thriving.  Turtlesteve, If you ever want to come over and get seeds and small plants, just let me know.  That goes for anybody else as well.  

 

[smithgn]

Steve, great to meet you and even better that there's another palm person in South Carolina! I believe the answers you're seeking is the holy grail that we're all trying to find; that "under the radar" cold hardy palm. There are great suggestions on here, but from a midlands of South Carolina perspective, Chamaedorea Radicalis and Microspadix are all viable options here. I have both that survived the frigid winters of 2013-2014 and 2014-2015. Where I am, northwest of Columbia, we reached 10 and 11 degrees respectively and both the radicalis and Microspadix survived; both very damaged since it was their first year in ground, but they bounced back the following summer. 

There's a phoenix canariensis thats been in ground since before the polar vortex winters around Batesburg-Leesville and last I heard, is doing very well. 

Theres a very robust Trithrinax brasiliensis growing at the botanical gardens at Riverbanks Zoo. I had two that I planted last year at my house. They made it through the winter fine but one succumbed to our cool and moist spring, so thats a viable option but like the brahea armata, they dont like our humidity but can tolerate it. By the way, there's a 6-8 foot tall Brahea Armata at Riverbanks zoo as well. 

I recently discovered some fairly large phoenix dactyliferas in a neighborhood near Lake Murray. It has a great microclimate but they are getting very large and show very little signs of cold damage from years past. I think dactyliferas are better prospects than canariensis. 

From the research I've done, I think the plectocomia himalayana would do okay here. I have yet to try it because it's so hard to find, but its certainly worth a try. 

Have you heard of Gayland Penny in Batesburg-Leesville, SC? A few times a year me and another board member on here (Scot in SC) meet at his place and talk palms and buy many different varieties of citrus, cycads and palms he grows in his backyard. He has a website, http://www.pennyspalms.com/index.html

[Turtlesteve]

Joseph, would love to stop by sometime.  Will send you PM.

Paddy, I had considered the phoenix species but did not know of the ones in Aiken.  Where in downtown are they?  I've sprouted about 2-3 dozen seedlings of P. dactylifera that I'm going to plant once they get some size.  I figure, even though it's a long shot, the seeds didn't cost anything.

Steve

Edited November 19, 2016 by Turtlesteve

[Turtlesteve]

7 minutes ago, smithgn said:

From the research I've done, I think the plectocomia himalayana would do okay here. I have yet to try it because it's so hard to find, but its certainly worth a try. 

Have you heard of Gayland Penny in Batesburg-Leesville, SC? A few times a year me and another board member on here (Scot in SC) meet at his place and talk palms and buy many different varieties of citrus, cycads and palms he grows in his backyard. He has a website, http://www.pennyspalms.com/index.html

smithgn, good to meet you!

I actually talked to Gayland earlier this week.  Hope to get out to his place soon, and I'd be happy to meet some other palm folks.  Drop me a message next time you plan to meet up.

Steve

[smithgn]

Great! I'll send you a message next time we do meet. I was actually trying to get something together this coming week or weekend, but with Thanksgiving I'm not sure how everyones plans will be. It's always great to meet local palm enthusiasts, there are very few of us around but we usually become a pretty tight knit bunch lol

[yabazid]

plant more palmettos 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

CIDP are more cold hardy than dactylifera if you have any precipitation accompanied with 8a temperatures.   

[Darold Petty]

No Ceroxylon has any particular frost hardiness.    My only direct experience is with C. quindiuense, which survived four nights of overnight low temperatures of 26F (-3C).

[Explorer]

Trachycarpus takil should be fine there.