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Florida vs California Palm trees


Mr.SamuraiSword

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There was a forum like this on city data forums, but most people there dont know squat about palms.  some said "florida palms arent native"  others said "there isnt a palm in florida you wont find in california"  and others even said date palms are native to SoCal!  I decided to start this topic to get some more educated answers not like "in florida, palms only live on beaches"    I personally think florida has more variety than california. north florida has many sabals, washingtonias, dates, and even queen palms.  while centeral and south florida have many others such as butias, royals, king palms, coconuts, foxtails and livistonias, while california is almost all washingtonias, CIDP, and queen palms.  also, florida has far more native palm trees including royals, pamettos, coconuts(technically), everglades palms, and saw palmetto.  SoCal, only has the 2 types of washingtonias.    

In SoCal, wild palms can only be found in desertsJoshua_Tree_National_Park_-_49_Palms_Oas

but in florida they can be found in forests

100_0889.jpg.e028074990fc4d4725e52bfe16c

beaches

1280px-Starr_031108-0277_Sabal_palmetto.

scrub lands

600px-4361848287_2bde817227_o.jpg.73baea

and even by themselves!

579b69565d412_100palms.jpg.e2c7d3de3cad4

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It sounds like you should disregard pretty much everything you read there and stick to PalmTalk. 

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Westchase | 9b 10a  ◆  Nokomis | 10a  ◆  St. Petersburg | 10a 10b 

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Florida palms are not native? Yeah, and all pine trees come from South East Asia. I would also recommend sticking with palm talk, I heard so much false information about palms from City Data I can't stand thinking about it.

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PalmTreeDude

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There are some palm enthusiasts on city-data, but I'm not surprised you received some off-the-wall answers from people who know nothing lol.

I've always wondered why more palms aren't native to California, the vast majority of the state is warm enough to grow them. The Mediterranean doesn't seem to have many native palms either.

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38 minutes ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Florida palms are not native? Yeah, and all pine trees come from South East Asia. I would also recommend sticking with palm talk, I heard so much false information about palms from City Data I can't stand thinking about it.

i know Its just fun seeing people arguing about  how "california is the only state with coconut palms"

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When I joined palmtalk a little over a year ago, I basically was not aware of the differences of growing palms in California and Florida. I had a surface knowledge that California was more "desert-like," and was aware of the stereotypical tall "skyline" palms there like Washingtonia and CIDP. I also remembered one time seeing an article about the "farthest northern growing coconut palm" and that it was in California. I remember thinking that was kind of odd as I hadn't really heard of coconut palms there. I never thought about it that deeply, but overall I think I perceived that the non-tropical desert climate did limit choices there a little. I also remember one time when my Dad went on a trip to the L.A. area, and he told me on the phone that the flora was very neat with a lot of exotic plants, palms, succulents, and such, and I was somewhat surprised to hear that. 

Now, after getting more of the whole story reading the forum, I didn't realize that choices are that much limited in CA due to the cooler and/or drier climate. Yes, Jubaea, Ceroxylon, Hedyscepe, Rhopalostylis, Brahea armata, Howea, Washingtonia filifera, and a few Dypsis are absolutely BEAUTIFUL and AMAZING palms that we really miss out on for the most part here (in terms of reguarly reaching full potential and growing with ease) in FL. However the selection of wonderful more tropical palms in South FL is hard to beat. Adonidia merrillii, Areca vestiaria, Cocos, Satakentia, Pritchardia, the more tropical Caryotas, Dictyosperma, Latania, Corypha, Hyophorbe verschaffeltii, Verschaffeltia, Neoveitchia storckii is just a fraction. (And I do know that some of the above palms and other tropical ones can "sort of-ish" grow in CA, but it will not look as healthy or readily get to full potential/size growing very slow)

Of course, for those of us in either of these two places, there will always be those species you can't grow. Yes, for some more than others. Additionally, for those of us in more Northern parts of these states, the choices are MUCH MORE limited. My philosophy is: "bloom where you are planted," find those species you can grow with ease, have fun, and make due. Also, some of the biggest thrill is growing those marginal palms that takes an effort to grow: the challenge makes it exciting. As for me, if life circumstances kept me from moving from North FL, I could make due just fine- but if I had the choice (: (: (: I think I'll move a little farther down state (:

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The US as a whole is deficient in native palm trees compared to many other countries. Sabals, needles, Washingtonia are the most common. In far SFL, you can add a Thrinax, a Coccothrinax and a Pseudophoenix. Coconuts are introduced but have become accepted as native. Even the Pseudophoenix may be introduced - or not. I'm not really sure but there may be a Brahea native to CA.

Truly tropical palms grow well in SFL but are close to impossible in CA. But CA can grow species no one in FL can touch: Jubaea, Jubeopsis, Rhopalostylis, Hedyscepe, almost all Brahea, many Dypsis and more. CA is no slouch in the diversity dept. Most people that live there wouldn't give up their dry desert climate to grow tropical palms. My Cali kinfolk were totally paranoid about east coast weather and would never venture beyond the Continental Divide. FL summers aren't for the faint of heart but I grew up with hot, humid summers, most of my childhood with no a/c. It's what I know.

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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4 minutes ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Maybe a Coconut in Southern California zone 10a growing on the bank of a pond would do well? 

Not really. Desert air lacks tropical humidity. Winters are chilly and sometimes rainy. Cold and rain are a lethal combination for coconuts.

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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17 minutes ago, Hammer said:

Actually, out in the desert is where Cocos do better than coastal areas, it seems.

 

 

Agree.. Have little doubt more will show up across the warmest spots in the lower deserts over time.  

As far as cultivated palms in general, i think CA has a slight advantage and range of palms which can be cultivated.. In Florida, many of the " oogle-worthy " palms want humidity/ warmth thus are generally confined to the southern end of the state... Back in CA, as has been shown via the forum.. not only can you grow "Desert stuff" ( which are actually tropical in origin) but, you may come across numerous Caribbean species, practically all species that are Native to Florida/the Southeast, and that whole other realm of "pant worthy/ stare at entranced while driving off a cliff" palms including many Dypsis, Ceroxylon, Howea, Rhopalostylis and Hedyscape.. etc that detest excessive humidity.

Add to this the pictures of Royals, Foxtail, Veitchia, Pesudophoenix, and none the least, Danny's Coachella Valley Cocos and  the San Diego Corypha and i think Ca has a slight edge. It won't be long before someone finds a decent Adonidia somewhere near the Salton, and i don't doubt one of our Southern Cal. gurus are in pursuit of succeeding with Carpoxylon and the Lipstick hybrid.. or is planning on it.  California also has a myriad of potential micro climates while Florida is just flat.

As far as natives.. Florida has the advantage only because of it's topography and the coming together of several other climatic variables that made it much easier for seeds from ancestral species in the Caribbean Basin, or parts of Central and Northern South America to either float north, or be hop scotched island to island before being dropped on a muddy shore in south Florida and then continue dispersing north and west along the Gulf coast or up the coast to the east. A wetter and more humid climate would help these species adapt better as they spread out. A logical way to think about how Sabal and other hardy species spread around the South really.

Following similar theory, Animals would likely have been the main means of dispersing seed from those "mother" species in Western/Northern Mexico into Arizona and/or California (no Gulf of Mexico currents to aid in dispersal)  and would had many physical let alone climate-related barriers to cross before reaching a favorable spot.

Still, California's climate at one time was more Florida-like and supported numerous plant and animal species more likely to be found in  the hills around or south/east of Hermosillo/Guaymas Sonora and/or Baja Sur, including palms and an ancestral Avocado (Persa sp.). The desert's Washingtonia are supposedly a relict of that climate period, if i read correctly.

Food for thought regarding the term "Native", Saguaros are thought to only recently reached Arizona, several thousand years after indigenous people did. like these icons, a number of "Desert" plants, especially here in the Sonoran section, are the great grandchildren of Tropical origins.

-Nathan
 

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6 hours ago, cm05 said:

There are some palm enthusiasts on city-data, but I'm not surprised you received some off-the-wall answers from people who know nothing lol.

I've always wondered why more palms aren't native to California, the vast majority of the state is warm enough to grow them. The Mediterranean doesn't seem to have many native palms either.

I've long suspected that CA experiences epic freezes at least once every 500 years. Americans just haven't lived there long enough to know.

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That forum you frequented has some ignorant palm species knowledgeable people on it. Fact is, California has but one native species of palm: Washingtonia filifera.

Florida has 11 species of palms: Sabal palmetto, Sabal minor, Sabal etonia, Serenoa repens, Rhapidophyllum hystrix, Roystonea elata/regia, Thrinax radiate, Leucothrinax morrisii, Cocothrinax agentata, Pseudophoenix sargentii, and Acoelorraphe wrightii.

And to my knowledge, there may also be considered an additional species, Sabal miamiensis. Then there is the variant Sabal palmetto 'lisa'.

The above being said, the next question might be is how many species of palms can be successfully (long term) grown in both California and Florida. My bet would be Florida, mainly extreme coastal south Florida.

IMO, of non native palm species that can be grown in both California and Florida, some surely look better in one state or the other. Species that come from more arid/semi-arid and Mediterranean areas look better in California. Conversely, species from more tropical humid climates look better in Florida.

 

 
 
 
 
 
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Mad about palms

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3 hours ago, Walt said:

That forum you frequented has some ignorant palm species knowledgeable people on it. Fact is, California has but one native species of palm: Washingtonia filifera.

Florida has 11 species of palms: Sabal palmetto, Sabal minor, Sabal etonia, Serenoa repens, Rhapidophyllum hystrix, Roystonea elata/regia, Thrinax radiate, Leucothrinax morrisii, Cocothrinax agentata, Pseudophoenix sargentii, and Acoelorraphe wrightii.

And to my knowledge, there may also be considered an additional species, Sabal miamiensis. Then there is the variant Sabal palmetto 'lisa'.

The above being said, the next question might be is how many species of palms can be successfully (long term) grown in both California and Florida. My bet would be Florida, mainly extreme coastal south Florida.

IMO, of non native palm species that can be grown in both California and Florida, some surely look better in one state or the other. Species that come from more arid/semi-arid and Mediterranean areas look better in California. Conversely, species from more tropical humid climates look better in Florida.

    What he said for sure.......

Mom Nature does a good job of adapting Flora and Fauna to the conditions about them .

Man is scattering everything everywhere , and given enough time , Nature will sort it back out , either

with or without us.......

 

 

 
 
 
 

 

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  • 8 months later...

I recall reading somewhere about a group of king palms (Archontophoenix Cunninghamiana)  which had been shipped from southern Florida to California, were planted in California, and then died in California during winter.  They were simply not used to any significant cooling in winter, or cold winter rain, because winter did not exist where they had been cultivated.  Those trees were planted or on a beach somewhere around San Diego, and yet San Diego has king palms everywhere.  King palms do just fine in San Diego if they are cultivated in San Diego, but apparently not if they are born in southern Florida (?)

My own king palms are from California seed and they have done fine so far here in Florida.  However, I am about to buy some King palms that were cultivated in southern Florida. I keep wondering whether I should have stuck with California King palms instead because I will be planting these trees up in northern Florida where winter is much colder than southern Florida.  There is no winter at all down where I will be buying these palms. 

Is there really a difference between a Florida-grown king palm and a California-grown king palm?  If so, is that difference due to genetics (hardier seed source in California) or is it due to the cultivation environment and acclimation?

 

Edited by Sandy Loam
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Problem most likely is King Palms don't like moving climates. They really aren't big on moving around at all, but tolerate it to some degree.  But from and to such drastically differing climates is tough for many plants.   I doubt there is anything else inherently wrong or different about them at least genetically.  But some of the commonly palms grown in a Florida climate, which basically 'coddles' them with humidity and constant warmth (allowing them to grow a LOT faster, but perhaps into somewhat wimpier creatures), react poorly to the harsher southern California climate by curling up and dying- seen this with Wodyetia palms as well as King Palms.  Majesty palms also tend to take a hit, but usually survive it (at least until someone tries to grow them as a house plant).  The larger and older the palms, which are, from a California point of view, too tall and green for their age (almost like a form of etiolation), the worse they seem to cope sometimes.  Definitely best to get a palm grown locally if you live in So Cal unless it's a species that you just can't find of any size for sale here - good example is Pseudophoenix- these grow 5-10x at least as fast, when young, in Florida as they do here, so a good sized palm can be acquired for far less than it could here... STILL, these palms are 'not ready for prime time' here and need to 'coddled' as best we can usually for them to survive the horrible change they are suddenly experiencing.  But once they acclimate, they do tend to do pretty well (if not pushed too hard by a crappy local climate). 

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Oh yeah, if a palm is raised somewhere it is going to want to stay there. 

PalmTreeDude

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I must take exception with the premise  that California has a slight advantage and range of palms which can be cultivated as compared to Florida.  There is no question that a coconut palm in Newport Beach, California (stunted) survived for over 30 years. Two specimens were subsequently  located in the Coachella valley in the desert region of California, giving hope that the  coconut palm may have better opportunities in the desert region.  We also reviewed the stunted Corypha in San Diego as well as the juvenile Carpoxylon.  We have seen slow growing and stunted Thrinax, Cocothrinax and Copernicia specimens.

 In contrast, there is no question that Dypsis decipiens, Jubaea chilensis, Hedyscepe canterburyana and Rhopalostylis sapida cannot be grown in  Florida. 

That stated,  numerous non- coddled Howea belmoreana, Howea forsteriana, Jubeaopsis caffra and Brahea are grown in Florida. Butia X Jubaea hybrids (  see plate 159 and 160, Encyclopedia of Cultivated Palms, Riffle and Craft, pg. 59) appear to approximate Jubaea chilensis.  Even the ubiquitous Syagrus genus, generally attributed to California, cannot grow a Syagrus schizophylla at the level of Florida ( please show me a 20 foot tall  Californian Arikury palm).

 Parenthetically, the number and varieties of tropical palms that flourish readily in South Florida is so large ( see varieties in Fairchild Gardens, Anne Norton Sculpture Gardens, Montgomery Botantical, et al)  that the suggestion that California holds a slight advantage in the range of palms which may be cultivated is patently flawed. 

 I greatly enjoy "edge pushing" and  do not desire to discourage Californians from the first Adonida merrillii, Cyrtostachys renda, or any of the "ogle worthy" palms. The "ogle worthy" palms that want humidity and heat is no more than an overt identification of the distinction between the Koppen climate designation of tropical ( South Florida ) and the Koppen climate designation for  mediterranean ( California ).  At the end of the day, the greatest number of palms  are of tropical origin and not  mediterranean . It flies in the face of logic to suggest that  California maintains an advantage over Florida regarding the range of palms that can be cultivated.

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What you look for is what is looking

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I have to agree... and am mystified by the assertion California can support a larger variety... that seems highly unlikely!  I would be quite surprised if there were not WAY more palm species just in Fairchild and Montgomery Foundation alone than in the entire state of California (my uneducated guess would be twice as many species at least)... and have to say most palms growing in Florida look great (far nearer the 'perfection' seen in their native habitat than could be attained anywhere here in California outside of a greenhouse... and even palms in a greenhouse tend to look rattier than in Florida)-   many of the species we 'grow' here in California struggle and not only never attain the perfection of those growing in a nice, humid, warm climate but grow very slowly and tend to exist as dwarf versions of their east coast brethren.  Some California microclimates do support an amazing array of Madagascan and other tropical species... but still pale to what can be grown in Florida.  I would even bet one could grow more species in Orlando than anywhere in California... though eventually a killer freeze will come along and wipe out a lot of those plants... but before that happens, the plants will grow fast and look great.

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I somewhat agree with some of the above in that I would give the tilt of the scale to Florida. However to correct Bubba, the Corypha is NOT stunted, just VERY slow.(having seen it many times in person, AND Florida ones and in native habitats on the biennial). The main thing with the "zone pushed" palms in California is that they are glacially SLOW compared to their FL counterparts. The Carpoxylon of Matt's is looking fine, just growing 1/3 the speed of FL. The other source of our "rattiness" at times is our poor water sources relative to Florida's. Our water in the south end of CA comes from a LONG way away and is high in TDS (Total Dissolved Salts).. we are barely better than a desert out here and after a long season/winter of good rains, many of our gardens and palms can look exemplary. Have a drought season and even with regular watering will just look tired. Average rainfall in SoCal is generally no more than 12-14" annually at best, usually less.

Most of my Florida friends that have made the trip out this way are "shocked" at how tropical some areas can be or look. Jeff Searle and I jest about this occasionally and the pseudo-concession is that California has better "people weather", Florida has better "plant weather".

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Zone 10a at best after 2007 AND 2013, on SW facing hill, 1 1/2 miles from coast in Oceanside, CA. 30-98 degrees, and 45-80deg. about 95% of the time.

"The great workman of nature is time."   ,  "Genius is nothing but a great aptitude for patience."

-George-Louis Leclerc de Buffon-

I do some experiments and learning in my garden with palms so you don't have to experience the pain! Look at my old threads to find various observations and tips!

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Cali does have better people weather, as my kinfolk (in Nor Cal) would smugly attest. And for the few times I visited there, usually in spring and summer, I heartily agree. Nothing like hearing my aunt bemoan a sweltering Aug evening beside the pool in San Jose (80F, 30% humidity) when Aug in No VA averaged 93F and 80% humidity. I've never seen Cali in winter and until I joined PT didn't know winters there were chilly, damp and rainy - something the Hollywood Dream Machine neglects to picture, except in a few episodes of the internet series Bosch. But No VA still trumped that every day that was 32F with sleet/snow/freezing rain.

Florida's saving grace is that while summers are hot, rainy & humid, winters warm/cool and dry. In winter I often see cars with Cali plates doing the FL Snowbird thing. Winters here are much nicer than in Cali but summers are brutal. As I write this I am indoors during the heat of the day. It's so true that when you get older high heat is much more unendurable. Ideally I'd be much better off spending summers in Cali but my husband is afraid of earthquakes. And, aside from earthquakes, Cali winters sound vile and depressing.

 

 

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Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Cali does have better people weather, as my kinfolk (in Nor Cal) would smugly attest. And for the few times I visited there, usually in spring and summer, I heartily agree. Nothing like hearing my aunt bemoan a sweltering Aug evening beside the pool in San Jose (80F, 30% humidity) when Aug in No VA averaged 93F and 80% humidity. I've never seen Cali in winter and until I joined PT didn't know winters there were chilly, damp and rainy - something the Hollywood Dream Machine neglects to picture, except in a few episodes of the internet series Bosch. But No VA still trumped that every day that was 32F with sleet/snow/freezing rain.

Florida's saving grace is that while summers are hot, rainy & humid, winters warm/cool and dry. In winter I often see cars with Cali plates doing the FL Snowbird thing. Winters here are much nicer than in Cali but summers are brutal. As I write this I am indoors during the heat of the day. It's so true that when you get older high heat is much more unendurable. Ideally I'd be much better off spending summers in Cali but my husband is afraid of earthquakes. And, aside from earthquakes, Cali winters sound vile and depressing.

 

 

Winters in all of coastal CA are nice, though only Pismo Beach and south can be compared to S. FL. One December, I decided my NorCal winter with highs in the 40s and 50s and lows in the 30s was too much, and I drove my family down to Pismo Beach for one night. We had lived much further south in Santa Barbara, so I knew that winter was milder down the coast. Pismo is in Central CA, but even there I saw ripe bananas and flawless king palms growing on our hotel grounds in the lovely December sun. I dragged my family around to look at plants, and the freeze-free zone appeared to extend only a short way from the coast. But if you had a few million dollars and an in with water regulators, I think you could make a tropical paradise that would rival Miami near the coast from Pismo on south. In my opinion, the tropical plants always feel right when the air is thick with humidity.

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Whenever I have been to Los Angeles, San Diego and Palm Springs in winter, the weather has been very perfect. Did I just luck out? I had rain once, but the other times it was generally in the low 70s Fahrenheit/low 20s Celsius by day, and averaged about 7  degrees Celsius at night (although even colder at night when travelling inland into the desert). It generally seemed to be sunny in winter if you didn't go north of Los Angeles. 

 

Was this a fluke? 

 

As for northern California and Central California, I have only been there once in winter and it was significantly colder than southern California.  Significantly!

They say California has a Mediterranean climate, but Los Angeles seems to be much warmer in winter than Mediterranean Europe if you've ever been there in winter (I have been to the Mediterranean in winter.... COLD!). Los Angeles in winter felt more like the south of Morocco, perhaps like Agadir or Marrakech --- arid but relatively warm and sunny by day with cold desert nights.  I have been to southern Morocco in winter and it felt like a similar climate to Los Angeles, especially Agadir.

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Definitely was a fluke... winters are often rainy, miserable affairs (as long as no drought... then too dry) and chills often down into the 30s and 40s.  Sometimes weeks will go by without any warm up (not good for tender palms!).  Near the beach things tend to be nicer, but most cannot afford to live there anymore.  Still, some south of Los Angeles live in wonderful frost free zones near the coast that are awesome environments to grow all sorts of cool plants from palms to all other tender succulents, tropical plants and trees... still, no comparison really to winters in Palm Beach or south.  Florida still has hurricanes and occasional horrific cold fronts that sweep through it, not to mention lots of lightening that zaps tall palms sometimes.  And summers in Miami or pretty tough (at least for a Californian) with the gazillions of mosquitoes and the 100% humidity and 95 degree weather... palms love it, though.  So if you can just live vicariously through your plants, the summers will seem fine.

By the way, if you are into succulents and cacti, I think the over all plant species number may tip towards California (so a nice, frost free California coast garden might support more species of plant than a Florida one at the same USDA zone). 

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13 hours ago, Geoff said:

By the way, if you are into succulents and cacti, I think the over all plant species number may tip towards California (so a nice, frost free California coast garden might support more species of plant than a Florida one at the same USDA zone).

"California" and "Florida" are both large states, with many climates and "micro-climates" within those climate zones.  I'm less inclined to count what can be grown in one spot versus another and instead emphasize planting to each climate's strengths.  That goes for what I can successfully grow or attempt to grow, while appreciating what I see doing well in other climates (Florida, Hawaii, NZ, Australia, Europe and elsewhere).  When specifically comparing the best micro-habitats in Southern California and Southern Florida, I have no doubt that there are significant differences in the plant palette available, but prefer appreciating and celebrating the differences rather than counting which has the "most" or "best".  Plant to your strengths.  As Geoff points out, playing to my climate's strengths, I mix in plenty of blue cycads, aloes, and succulents with my palms.

Most importantly, I hope that the diversity of species which continue growing in either habitat isn't negatively changed by some of the invasive insects we are all seeing recently.  I love seeing the species that just won't make it in my climate or grow at a snails pace, so keep posting photos and stories from South Florida and elsewhere!

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33.0782 North -117.305 West  at 72 feet elevation

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17 hours ago, Sandy Loam said:

Whenever I have been to Los Angeles, San Diego and Palm Springs in winter, the weather has been very perfect. Did I just luck out? I had rain once, but the other times it was generally in the low 70s Fahrenheit/low 20s Celsius by day, and averaged about 7  degrees Celsius at night (although even colder at night when travelling inland into the desert). It generally seemed to be sunny in winter if you didn't go north of Los Angeles. 

 

Was this a fluke? 

 

As for northern California and Central California, I have only been there once in winter and it was significantly colder than southern California.  Significantly!

They say California has a Mediterranean climate, but Los Angeles seems to be much warmer in winter than Mediterranean Europe if you've ever been there in winter (I have been to the Mediterranean in winter.... COLD!). Los Angeles in winter felt more like the south of Morocco, perhaps like Agadir or Marrakech --- arid but relatively warm and sunny by day with cold desert nights.  I have been to southern Morocco in winter and it felt like a similar climate to Los Angeles, especially Agadir.

Nope, it's always nice on the coast and in the low desert. Daytime highs in Santa Barbara were generally between the low 60s and low 70s throughout the year, though nightly lows dipped to the 40s almost all winter. In San Diego, lows stay in the 50s and 60s for most of the winter, and highs are in the 70s and 80s for *most* of the winter. 

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I just googled Los Angeles monthly averages and the coldest month of the year was January:  January average day time high:  20 degrees celcius;  January night time low:  9 degrees celcius.  That is certainly colder than Miami Beach or Key West in January, but you can still have an amazing garden if that is the coldest month of the year in L.A.  It is MUCH warmer than Nice, Rome or Athens at that time of year.


As for the winter rain, though.....

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As it relates to range of palms that can be grown, I stick with my belief that Cali cannot compare with Florida. As far as people/living climate, the best deal would be PB Nov.-May/ La Jolla Beach June-Oct. Nirvana.

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What you look for is what is looking

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12 hours ago, bubba said:

As it relates to range of palms that can be grown, I stick with my belief that Cali cannot compare with Florida. As far as people/living climate, the best deal would be PB Nov.-May/ La Jolla Beach June-Oct. Nirvana.

Agree!

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15 hours ago, bubba said:

As far as people/living climate, the best deal would be PB Nov.-May/ La Jolla Beach June-Oct. Nirvana

Unfortunately, for a subset of "people" you would miss our best surf if you weren't here in the winter.  Just ask Matt in SD or MattyB if they would want to leave San Diego from November to May.  Although on second thought, that would be 2 fewer doing dawn patrol at our "secret spot" during winter!  Ship them out to Palm Beach, just give me first dibs on their palms when they leave for winter!  I guess we all live where we do for many reasons:  work, lifestyle, family, climate, (maybe surf) and we make palms fit into that choice where ever we live.  That is our bond!

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33.0782 North -117.305 West  at 72 feet elevation

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 5/18/2017, 2:36:42, Tracy said:

Unfortunately, for a subset of "people" you would miss our best surf if you weren't here in the winter.  Just ask Matt in SD or MattyB if they would want to leave San Diego from November to May.  Although on second thought, that would be 2 fewer doing dawn patrol at our "secret spot" during winter!  Ship them out to Palm Beach, just give me first dibs on their palms when they leave for winter!  I guess we all live where we do for many reasons:  work, lifestyle, family, climate, (maybe surf) and we make palms fit into that choice where ever we live.  That is our bond!

The SoCal winter ocean is too cold to enjoy :-( One winter, I snorkeled off Santa Cruz Island without a full wetsuit, and parts of my body didn't warm back up for hours after I got out and into the 75+ degree warmth of the January sun on the island. I remember that it felt like I had been punched in the face when put my head into that water (I think it was in the 50s). I'm spoiled now, though. I won't even consider entering the ocean unless it's well over 70, and I don't remember the water in Santa Barbara ever reaching more than 70 in the 6 years I lived there.

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  • 4 years later...
On 5/14/2017 at 3:51 PM, bubba said:

I must take exception with the premise  that California has a slight advantage and range of palms which can be cultivated as compared to Florida.  There is no question that a coconut palm in Newport Beach, California (stunted) survived for over 30 years. Two specimens were subsequently  located in the Coachella valley in the desert region of California, giving hope that the  coconut palm may have better opportunities in the desert region.  We also reviewed the stunted Corypha in San Diego as well as the juvenile Carpoxylon.  We have seen slow growing and stunted Thrinax, Cocothrinax and Copernicia specimens.

 In contrast, there is no question that Dypsis decipiens, Jubaea chilensis, Hedyscepe canterburyana and Rhopalostylis sapida cannot be grown in  Florida. 

That stated,  numerous non- coddled Howea belmoreana, Howea forsteriana, Jubeaopsis caffra and Brahea are grown in Florida. Butia X Jubaea hybrids (  see plate 159 and 160, Encyclopedia of Cultivated Palms, Riffle and Craft, pg. 59) appear to approximate Jubaea chilensis.  Even the ubiquitous Syagrus genus, generally attributed to California, cannot grow a Syagrus schizophylla at the level of Florida ( please show me a 20 foot tall  Californian Arikury palm).

 Parenthetically, the number and varieties of tropical palms that flourish readily in South Florida is so large ( see varieties in Fairchild Gardens, Anne Norton Sculpture Gardens, Montgomery Botantical, et al)  that the suggestion that California holds a slight advantage in the range of palms which may be cultivated is patently flawed. 

 I greatly enjoy "edge pushing" and  do not desire to discourage Californians from the first Adonida merrillii, Cyrtostachys renda, or any of the "ogle worthy" palms. The "ogle worthy" palms that want humidity and heat is no more than an overt identification of the distinction between the Koppen climate designation of tropical ( South Florida ) and the Koppen climate designation for  mediterranean ( California ).  At the end of the day, the greatest number of palms  are of tropical origin and not  mediterranean . It flies in the face of logic to suggest that  California maintains an advantage over Florida regarding the range of palms that can be cultivated.

Couldn't have said it better myself.  Some of the botanical gardens in S. Florida were absolute paradises full of some of the most unusual and beautiful plants/palms I had ever seen.  I couldn't imagine trying to duplicate that in the desert landscapes of Southern California - would require a small lake full of water every week to survive.  Also, many other palm trees not native to Florida have actually become "naturalized" in our state, because it's so habitable towards palms (unlike CA).

Edited by EPaul
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As Jeff Searle observed, Cali has the best climate for people most of the year(Pacific Current provides outdoor air conditioning), Florida is best for growing plants ( Gulfstream Current + Latitude= Hot). Both states should enjoy and push!

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What you look for is what is looking

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Having lived in Socal and SF bay area for 7 years, and now in Florida with my palms for 4, the climates are so different that different palms thrive in each place.  You may be able to grow many more palms if you have them on life support, but thriving is another matter.  Jubaea, parajubaea, ceroxylon, Braheas, phoenix, washingtonia, dypsis and even archontophoenix(slightly) mostly prefer the warm humidity cycling or cool mediterranean climate(up north) of California.  Most of Florida is humid all the time by comparison, but the soils are often terrible, there is no cation exchange in sand.  The wet rainy season in florida is an explosion, rain makes jungle palms lush in a way that no irrigation system can.  Just because you can grow a washingtonia filifera in florida doesn't mean it will look anything close to a well kept CA specimen and just because you can grow a coco in newport beach doesnt mean it looks like one from SFL.  I was shocked to see how phoenix dactylifera, W. Filifera, my own brahea clara, looked here in florida.  They just glowed in arizona an california, here they look malnurished/sick.   On the other hand, everything is so green here, and watering is on automatic during the hot part of the grow season.  If I lived in california, I would have a different plan for a garden, no doubt.    

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Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

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Difference between Cali palm growing and Florida palm growing in my opinion is ease of growth. Plenty of Cali folks who are out there doing it right. Outside of supplemental watering palm trees besides washingtonia have zero to no chance of just growing in some field all on its own . Where as Florida you have palms growing just fine all by themselves in many regions. As many queens and kings you see growing in Cali not many has any chance of growing from seed to trunk without some kind of supplemental watering. The one thing I know for sure is both Cali and Florida palm growing is much easier then in Texas haha 

T J 

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T J 

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10 minutes ago, OC2Texaspalmlvr said:

Outside of supplemental watering palm trees besides washingtonia have zero to no chance of just growing in some field all on its own .

Many Phoenix spp. volunteers can (and do) grow in fields on their own in California.

Radke Martinez Shoreline Park, Martinez, California:

image.thumb.jpeg.bd660393da58905e74266fe3ec193611.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.7d85b4f96a10e4957fe3eef193be00b8.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.438138fbdcf1f0ab43243dc2d90fe724.jpeg

Skyline Wilderness Park, Napa, California:

image.thumb.jpeg.15ede9e5302323fa8fd8d42930e7b028.jpeg

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Unified Theory of Palm Seed Germination

image.png.2a6e16e02a0a8bfb8a478ab737de4bb1.png

(Where: bh = bottom heat, fs = fresh seed, L = love, m = magic, p = patience, and t = time)

DISCLAIMER: Working theory; not yet peer reviewed.

"Fronds come and go; the spear is life!" - Anonymous Palmtalker

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As a native Floridian, you know that Summer swimming season has arrived when you realize that your sweating in the water! No native would think of swimming, unless forced to when windsurfing, during a South Florida Winter.

Californians can grow some stupendous palms, but as far as species diversity and ease of culture, most tropical species (and warm-climate subtropicals) do far better in coastal peninsular Florida. Visit Montgomery Botanical Center or Fairchild, if you want to be stunned.

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7 hours ago, GoatLockerGuns said:

Many Phoenix spp. volunteers can (and do) grow in fields on their own in California.

Your absolutely right I didn't really want to name all desert palms that need very little water to survive haha 

T J 

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T J 

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On 5/16/2017 at 9:50 PM, Geoff said:

By the way, if you are into succulents and cacti, I think the over all plant species number may tip towards California (so a nice, frost free California coast garden might support more species of plant than a Florida one at the same USDA zone).

I was just re-reading the thread, and noticed that it appears that Geoff's comments were taken out of context on the "over all plant species number may tip toward California" in that there is that huge qualifier of "if you are into succulents and cacti".  I won't attempt to deny or defend it, but did want to point out that Geoff was expanding the conversation beyond just palms so those disputing his comment would put it in perspective.

My position is unchanged.  Bring on the diversity in each growing habitat and appreciate the strengths of each.  We all reside where we do for reasons beyond just what we can grow in the climate, be they family, economic, lifestyle or ???  Just like a garden, the diversity of garden climates on these pages is far more interesting than growing a whole bunch of just one species of palm.

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33.0782 North -117.305 West  at 72 feet elevation

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On 5/14/2017 at 3:51 PM, bubba said:

I must take exception with the premise  that California has a slight advantage and range of palms which can be cultivated as compared to Florida.  There is no question that a coconut palm in Newport Beach, California (stunted) survived for over 30 years. Two specimens were subsequently  located in the Coachella valley in the desert region of California, giving hope that the  coconut palm may have better opportunities in the desert region.  We also reviewed the stunted Corypha in San Diego as well as the juvenile Carpoxylon.  We have seen slow growing and stunted Thrinax, Cocothrinax and Copernicia specimens.

 In contrast, there is no question that Dypsis decipiens, Jubaea chilensis, Hedyscepe canterburyana and Rhopalostylis sapida cannot be grown in  Florida. 

That stated,  numerous non- coddled Howea belmoreana, Howea forsteriana, Jubeaopsis caffra and Brahea are grown in Florida. Butia X Jubaea hybrids (  see plate 159 and 160, Encyclopedia of Cultivated Palms, Riffle and Craft, pg. 59) appear to approximate Jubaea chilensis.  Even the ubiquitous Syagrus genus, generally attributed to California, cannot grow a Syagrus schizophylla at the level of Florida ( please show me a 20 foot tall  Californian Arikury palm).

 Parenthetically, the number and varieties of tropical palms that flourish readily in South Florida is so large ( see varieties in Fairchild Gardens, Anne Norton Sculpture Gardens, Montgomery Botantical, et al)  that the suggestion that California holds a slight advantage in the range of palms which may be cultivated is patently flawed. 

 I greatly enjoy "edge pushing" and  do not desire to discourage Californians from the first Adonida merrillii, Cyrtostachys renda, or any of the "ogle worthy" palms. The "ogle worthy" palms that want humidity and heat is no more than an overt identification of the distinction between the Koppen climate designation of tropical ( South Florida ) and the Koppen climate designation for  mediterranean ( California ).  At the end of the day, the greatest number of palms  are of tropical origin and not  mediterranean . It flies in the face of logic to suggest that  California maintains an advantage over Florida regarding the range of palms that can be cultivated.

Jubea can't be grown in FL?  

Winter Park,   https://www.google.com/maps/@28.6066607,-81.3375946,3a,46y,63.44h,94.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjXoIB2vJVucnpOsS1IwyHw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

,202110311955_JxB_WinterPark.jpg.859cb4dcb2b2b45a7a7267e29fb484ba.jpg.031918b0c0cfdb3cb5a07f87197c765b.jpg

Heres a thread mentioning it and another one that was in Leu gardens for 60 or so years that eventually got a fungal infection....   More longterm than any Coconut, Carpoxylon or Cocothrinax in Cali....

 

if stunted palms count, Dypsis Decipiens has been grown in FL, this one since 2001

 

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