A hardy Charleston garden...

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I couldn't review any of the photos as Photobucket website is down. None of my Photobucket photos are showing in other posts.

I would have liked to have seen the photos of historic Charleston and what is growing there as, when I was in the navy I was stationed in Charleston in 1968-70. I know much more is planted there as I could see the palms on Google street scene. But when I was there, there was virtually nothing but Sabal palmetto and Butia. However, I do recall a few Washingtonia robusta and only one Canary Island date palm. Of course, that was 48 years ago. I know (from other palm forums) that some folks in Charleston were trialing Bismarckia noblis (silver form) palms.

As an aside, I was also stationed in Norfolk, Va. in 1967. I would occasionally go to Virginia Beach. I saw absolutely no Sabal palmettos or butia back then, but now I see they have been introducing them for years. Still, IMO, they don't look good. Much too far north, plus salt air.

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Stopped by the Doc's again today. Totai's are doing well.

2wntrt3.jpg2qvavwj.jpg

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mrsmch.jpg

 

Also noticed one of the other queens is about to flower...

 

ojnpyu.jpg

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On 11/4/2016, 9:17:29, Walt said:

I couldn't review any of the photos as Photobucket website is down. None of my Photobucket photos are showing in other posts.

I would have liked to have seen the photos of historic Charleston and what is growing there as, when I was in the navy I was stationed in Charleston in 1968-70. I know much more is planted there as I could see the palms on Google street scene. But when I was there, there was virtually nothing but Sabal palmetto and Butia. However, I do recall a few Washingtonia robusta and only one Canary Island date palm. Of course, that was 48 years ago. I know (from other palm forums) that some folks in Charleston were trialing Bismarckia noblis (silver form) palms.

As an aside, I was also stationed in Norfolk, Va. in 1967. I would occasionally go to Virginia Beach. I saw absolutely no Sabal palmettos or butia back then, but now I see they have been introducing them for years. Still, IMO, they don't look good. Much too far north, plus salt air.

 

I have to disagree there.  There are some beautiful full crown Sabals in va beach.  Usually sighted up next to buildings and out of the reach of  st times very cold, desiccating salt winds.   When you go a mile inland there are move in some neighborhoods andnit very much resembles South Carolina coastal palms.  There are plenty of places in and around va beach that have very nice ones.    The only worst in I've always had is why don't they try trachycarous more there.   They clearly can do great there with little to no damage.   They even get rather tall there. 

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Nice garden.

I have also seen a number of livistona chinensis in Charleston and they did not appear to be at all damaged when I was there in winter.  It must not get very cold there in winter.

Yes, sabal palmetto trees line the streets of Charleston because it is a local native tree to forests and coastline in the region.

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On ‎11‎/‎15‎/‎2016‎ ‎12‎:‎50‎:‎02‎, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

 

I have to disagree there.  There are some beautiful full crown Sabals in va beach.  Usually sighted up next to buildings and out of the reach of  st times very cold, desiccating salt winds.   When you go a mile inland there are move in some neighborhoods andnit very much resembles South Carolina coastal palms.  There are plenty of places in and around va beach that have very nice ones.    The only worst in I've always had is why don't they try trachycarous more there.   They clearly can do great there with little to no damage.   They even get rather tall there. 

But you (anyone) didn't see them there 48 years ago (my point). I know today there are some respectable looking Sabal palmetto in the Virginia Beach area growing farther from damaging salt laden air, as I've seen photos of them posted here at this forum.

In Charleston, and especially Virginia Beach, there was literally no non-native palms growing at private residences, commercial properties, county/city properties, etc. -- at least not in sight of all the areas I traveled, and I had a car in both cities and would drive all over the place, alert to observing any palm I could find.

In Virginia Beach, the only palm-like plant I saw back in '67-'68 (when I was stationed at Norfolk) was the Spanish dagger  (Yucca gloriosa). At the time I didn't even know what they were, but I was impressed with some of the taller trunked ones I saw.

In Charleston, in all my travels in the historic part down near the water front, I saw only one Canary Island date (a large one at a residence on Murray Blvd.), several Washingtonia robustas (all growing along Murray Blvd., with the exception  of one with a long skirt growing next to an alley way a block or so north of South Broad Street), and some Cycas revoluta. I'm not saying there wasn't more of the afore palms in number, or possibly other species -- but they certainly weren't as abundant then as they are today. Now, after almost a half century, with more interest in palms, coupled with far more availability to obtain them, I only see more and more non-native species being planted in the Charleston area.

 

 

 

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The Sabal palmetto in Virginia Beach that are about half a mile inland from the beach itself look beautiful. The ones directly on the beach just get hammered with wind and other factors that kill them. 

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On 12/26/2016, 5:04:35, Walt said:

But you (anyone) didn't see them there 48 years ago (my point). I know today there are some respectable looking Sabal palmetto in the Virginia Beach area growing farther from damaging salt laden air, as I've seen photos of them posted here at this forum.

In Charleston, and especially Virginia Beach, there was literally no non-native palms growing at private residences, commercial properties, county/city properties, etc. -- at least not in sight of all the areas I traveled, and I had a car in both cities and would drive all over the place, alert to observing any palm I could find.

In Virginia Beach, the only palm-like plant I saw back in '67-'68 (when I was stationed at Norfolk) was the Spanish dagger  (Yucca gloriosa). At the time I didn't even know what they were, but I was impressed with some of the taller trunked ones I saw.

In Charleston, in all my travels in the historic part down near the water front, I saw only one Canary Island date (a large one at a residence on Murray Blvd.), several Washingtonia robustas (all growing along Murray Blvd., with the exception  of one with a long skirt growing next to an alley way a block or so north of South Broad Street), and some Cycas revoluta. I'm not saying there wasn't more of the afore palms in number, or possibly other species -- but they certainly weren't as abundant then as they are today. Now, after almost a half century, with more interest in palms, coupled with far more availability to obtain them, I only see more and more non-native species being planted in the Charleston area.

 

 

 

Hi Walt. Hop you had a good holiday!    

I  just disagree.  I am not saying you are wrong, I just disagree with your thoughts here.

  Just because one person did not see them does not mean they were never there.   I also have seen at least one old photo of a small native population of them, near the shore / dunes, somewhere south of the city and sandbridge.   It is also my belief that they once were native to the VA Beach area, and that was their northern terminus. They were long ago extirpated from that area along with much of eastern north carolina since they were limited in numbers and were used as a food source for quite sometime in history. 

Its funny this should come up again because I was just in VA Beach  area last weekend for the holidays and spent all day Boxing Day (monday) in downtown Va Beach along the ocean.  I did a little exploring too, and there are literally hundreds there now, at least in the part I saw. I know there are more.  Windmill palms have also finally taken off there.  There are almost as many of those there now as Sabals  and some are getting very large.   That was definitely new to me.  I always knew there were some there, but never saw nearly that many as I did this time.   I saw at least almost as many windmills as Sabals.  

 

This winter has been mild so even the ones direly on the ocean are doing ok. They look ratty as hell, but they are def alive and good so far.  The ones on the first ocean block that are on south facing walls of buildings  all have been there for many years and look full and beautiful.  In fact out of all the sabals that I saw in total, about 75% looked nearly as good as or just as good as those in much more southern areas.  Another thing I noticed as that about 1/2 of all the sabals I saw, were in full seed.   They had bloomed this past summer and were loaded with seeds.   I did notice volunteers coming up in many areas as well.   There were also lots of Sabal Minor all over.   I also saw lots of Butias  and some were very tall and looked great.   One thing is ceratin, the S. palmetto is making a huge comeback in the Va Beach area, and windmills are now exploding in popularity.   My guess is along with their popularity, is the warming climate is also aiding in this.   2 of the 5 days I was there it was 67, and 73F, and the coldest day high temp was 50.    The cold there just isn't as sharp or deep, nor does it last.   Its usually gone in a day or so. 

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1 hour ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

Hi Walt. Hop you had a good holiday!    

I  just disagree.  I am not saying you are wrong, I just disagree with your thoughts here.

  Just because one person did not see them does not mean they were never there.   I also have seen at least one old photo of a small native population of them, near the shore / dunes, somewhere south of the city and sandbridge.   It is also my belief that they once were native to the VA Beach area, and that was their northern terminus. They were long ago extirpated from that area along with much of eastern north carolina since they were limited in numbers and were used as a food source for quite sometime in history. 

Its funny this should come up again because I was just in VA Beach  area last weekend for the holidays and spent all day Boxing Day (monday) in downtown Va Beach along the ocean.  I did a little exploring too, and there are literally hundreds there now, at least in the part I saw. I know there are more.  Windmill palms have also finally taken off there.  There are almost as many of those there now as Sabals  and some are getting very large.   That was definitely new to me.  I always knew there were some there, but never saw nearly that many as I did this time.   I saw at least almost as many windmills as Sabals.  

 

This winter has been mild so even the ones direly on the ocean are doing ok. They look ratty as hell, but they are def alive and good so far.  The ones on the first ocean block that are on south facing walls of buildings  all have been there for many years and look full and beautiful.  In fact out of all the sabals that I saw in total, about 75% looked nearly as good as or just as good as those in much more southern areas.  Another thing I noticed as that about 1/2 of all the sabals I saw, were in full seed.   They had bloomed this past summer and were loaded with seeds.   I did notice volunteers coming up in many areas as well.   There were also lots of Sabal Minor all over.   I also saw lots of Butias  and some were very tall and looked great.   One thing is ceratin, the S. palmetto is making a huge comeback in the Va Beach area, and windmills are now exploding in popularity.   My guess is along with their popularity, is the warming climate is also aiding in this.   2 of the 5 days I was there it was 67, and 73F, and the coldest day high temp was 50.    The cold there just isn't as sharp or deep, nor does it last.   Its usually gone in a day or so. 

I don't want to belabor the point, I was only wondering why you disagreed, as I never said there "weren't" certain other species of palms growing in Charleston, and S. palmettos in Virginia Beach -- I just said I didn't see them  -- and I was looking hard for them from what I could see while driving up and down streets. There probably were more non native palms growing there -- but they weren't in locations where I could see them. My point, mainly, is that since the days I was there, many of these palms have been introduced and are planted in more conspicuous locations where the traveling general public can see such palms. The evolution of time, interest in more exotic palms, and availability of such palms is why they are there today. The difference of 48 years is night and day compared to what was growing then as to what is growing there now.

The Washingtonia robustas I saw in Charleston appeared to be old. I say that as they were tall and had smooth skinny trunks, with no old frond bases attached. While this is fast growing species, I believe, based on the look of the palms, that they had been growing there for decades, probably dating back to the 1940s. That would be reasonable since I observed these palms in the late 1960s.

I know a husband and wife palm grower with property 1/2 block off the ocean in Sandbridge. They had lots of trunked butia, S. palmetto, windmills, etc. I think they lost many of them (but not all) during the 2010 winter.  And I used to go body surfing near the pier on weekends with a buddy of my from San Diego, California. Sandbridge was right. There was virtually nothing there, unlike today. I never saw any palms of any species back then, at least in the public beach area.

 

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Walt,  I don't discount your experience at all.  I believe that you are correct when you say there were not in any areas where most people could see them.  I would bet everything though that there were some there way back then in Va Beach.     The Washys in Charleston sound right too.    

Sabals back then remind me of Windmills in Alexandria VA today.  They are there, and quite a few, but almost all of them are in hidden away places that you would not see unless you were invited on to the property and got into back yards that cant be seen from any street and such like that.   I know they are there as I saw them first hand.  There was  a couple that I remember right out in public. One was a very large old one at a gas station. It was as tall as the large roofs they put over the pumps these says.  It was there for at least 10 years that I know of before the winter of 2010.  I know that is what killed it because it would get protected very nicely every winter.  I remember that winter I was shocked when I passed by it in January and it had no protection what so ever on it, and it was very very badly burned from the high winds and sub zero temps at times.   I tried to ask about it multiple times but the owner was never present and no one really knew who was responsible for planting and maintaining it.  Somewhere I have photos of it from around 2000 when it was only about 12 feet or so tall. 

Whatever the case, I am overjoyed at how "palmy" Va Beach and that whole area has become. Its now commonplace to see sabals and windmills in peoples front yards, and many of the windmills are taller than the houses themselves.  I visit Smithfield VA  most years for the holidays and there is even a medium sized windmill palm farm all the way out there with trees ranging from 5-6 feet on up to 15-20 feet tall.  I dont know if it is a growing field or a holding area, but its there and has been there for at least a decade. 

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1 hour ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

Walt,  I don't discount your experience at all.  I believe that you are correct when you say there were not in any areas where most people could see them.  I would bet everything though that there were some there way back then in Va Beach.     The Washys in Charleston sound right too.    

Sabals back then remind me of Windmills in Alexandria VA today.  They are there, and quite a few, but almost all of them are in hidden away places that you would not see unless you were invited on to the property and got into back yards that cant be seen from any street and such like that.   I know they are there as I saw them first hand.  There was  a couple that I remember right out in public. One was a very large old one at a gas station. It was as tall as the large roofs they put over the pumps these says.  It was there for at least 10 years that I know of before the winter of 2010.  I know that is what killed it because it would get protected very nicely every winter.  I remember that winter I was shocked when I passed by it in January and it had no protection what so ever on it, and it was very very badly burned from the high winds and sub zero temps at times.   I tried to ask about it multiple times but the owner was never present and no one really knew who was responsible for planting and maintaining it.  Somewhere I have photos of it from around 2000 when it was only about 12 feet or so tall. 

Whatever the case, I am overjoyed at how "palmy" Va Beach and that whole area has become. Its now commonplace to see sabals and windmills in peoples front yards, and many of the windmills are taller than the houses themselves.  I visit Smithfield VA  most years for the holidays and there is even a medium sized windmill palm farm all the way out there with trees ranging from 5-6 feet on up to 15-20 feet tall.  I dont know if it is a growing field or a holding area, but its there and has been there for at least a decade. 

The last time I was at VB was sometime in the late 1980s. I attended a 5-day seminar (by my employer) at some hotel (I think the Marriott or Sheraton, on the water front) in Norfolk.

One day me and two other guys whom I worked with drove over to VB. Even then I don't recall seeing any Sabal palmettos or any other palms. But we didn't traverse the entire town, but just limited our stay to basically one spot. However, it was about that time that I recall either reading a magazine article or else seeing it on the TV news how many big ocean side hotels were bringing in trunked Sabal palmettos so as to give the hotels a more tropical look. I seem to recall they were planting the palms on the side of the tall hotels where they would be best sheltered from cold winds and salt spray. I recall seeing a photo showing the palms.

I'm pleased that VB is planting, and for the most part, succeeding, growing various cold hardy species of palms. I'm all for it. I went on Google about a year or more ago and could see how many of these palms have been planted there.

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Update: The 30 ft mule palm has died. It has huge mushrooms growing on the trunk. Ganoderma maybe?

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Vistited the Doc this afternoon. Update on the 30 ft mule palm in the first two photos. It was healthy this spring early summer. Last time I was there back in early November it looked like it was dead. A week ago he said he was sitting in the house & the entire house shook. He went outside & the tree dropped. Good thing nobody was out there at the time. The entire root system was gone. He had the tree cut up & removed but set set the trunk back where it had grown. You can see the mushrooms still on the trunk.

17fs47.jpg2iatymv.jpg

 

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Thats a shame the mule died... was that a BxQ?  If thats what it is I am shock it did not make it. 

My mule palm is from the late Merrill Wilcox also,.. BxQ, one of the hardiness palms I have ever grown. Mine has seen 15F lots of times and still keeps growing back and getting bigger but at a much slower pace. 

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Yes it was a BxQ and also cam from Merrill. It was planted in this spot in the 70's.

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What a pity.  Do mushrooms on a palm trunk always signal the presence of ganoderma?  I didn't know that ganoderma existed as far north as Charleston.

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Stopped by the Doc's yesterday. First two are his queens & second two are his Acrocomia's. All survived & are pushing new growth.

 

2czzkp5.jpg

20r1zew.jpg

 

20iz58w.jpg

29lfbly.jpg

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On 11/5/2016, 7:01:51, Laaz said:

mrsmch.jpg

 

Also noticed one of the other queens is about to flower...

 

ojnpyu.jpg

Lazz, not a palm tree related question, but do you know how you can save an orange tree that gets trunk or bark splitting from the severe winter? If untreated will that kill the tree over a long term?

 

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On 9/7/2016, 2:58:56, Laaz said:

Visited the good Doctor's garden today down in the historic section of Charleston. I'm really amazed at some of the things he is growing. He said he has never protected anything. Fruiting queen palm, two nice Acrocomia totai (Haven't produced fruit yet) Rhapis Excelsa, multiple Butia hybrid palms he acquired from the late Merrill Wilcox... A two story seed grown avocado...

2gtos40.jpg2jawzno.jpg207n878.jpgio0mr6.jpg

 

I thought lady palms were pretty darn cold hardy? They grow in Mobile, AL and Beaufort area. I even know a guy growing one in Monroe LA that is coming back after this winter.

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@mthteh1916  You gotta tell the whole story here and not mislead folks.  The guy in Monroe's plants are in an extremely protected area right up against the south side of his brick home by the front door under an large eave and surrounded by a lot of other very tall sabal minors. 100% of the canes were killed outright and are only coming back up from the roots. 

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Joe is correct, my rhapis were knocked back down to the ground as were the Doc's. They reproduce like bamboo and unless the ground freezes solid the will come back.

If the citrus is damaged too badly, you better off taking some good budwood from it & re-grafting a new tree.

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On 5/17/2018, 7:00:16, Laaz said:

Joe is correct, my rhapis were knocked back down to the ground as were the Doc's. They reproduce like bamboo and unless the ground freezes solid the will come back.

If the citrus is damaged too badly, you better off taking some good budwood from it & re-grafting a new tree.

Lazz, is that relatively easy to do grafting? I bought a grafted satsuma from Stan McKenzie and I kept getting branches sprouting off from below the graft.

 

On another front, on FB I keep arguing with this guy about why he claims ponkan and sweet oranges will not survive long term in Tallahassee or Mobile, or coastal SC, GA etc without protection. He says sweet oranges near FSU campus eventually bite the dust. I have told him of friends on Lady's Island, and your graden and things I saw in Beaufort and Mobile, etc. He keeps saying they will not survive long term wihout protecting. I told him maybe his trees don't harden off like further north. Lazz, you have never protected your sweet oranges right? It seems there are still lots of mis information out there about sweet orange growing in the coastal southeast, and tough to get them to change their mind. Here was his conversation with me:

Me: I have a feeling that is because it is too warm in the Fall and your trees don't harden off as they do further north. How could an orange tree survive say in Monroe, LA (Hamlin survived this winter with low teens) and Alexandria and Mobile, etc, and yet die off in your area? If the trees don't harden off in the fall and it is too warm, they are much more sensitive to cold temps. That may be why. Do ponkan mandarins grow there, or what kind of tangerines do you grow on campus?

Him: " Ponkans have been trialed here-they need protection. For unprotected sites here Changsha tangerine, any of the Satsuma selections, Dancy, FallGlo, Clementine varieties, Fremont, and various Tangelo hybrids can grow in our area- most of ours on campus are Satsumas.  Eventually your oranges will get killed in Monroe- I have friends near Mobile and Pensacola that have lost them in the past. "

Me: Well Bill Finch recommends hamlin oranges and Ponkan for Mobile and other citrus within 50 miles of the Gulf Coast.

http://www.statebystategardening.com/.../tropical_fruits.../

Him: They will require protection on severe winters in that area or you will lose them.

 

Can you or anyone on here clarify for me that if I have a property in Beaufort SC will I be able to grow hamlins or cara cara without protection over the long term?

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Grafting is easy, I learned from Stan. No I have never protected my trees & have ponkan, variegated hamlin & many more. All my citrus are grafted on trifoliate or swingle. Anything that sprouts from the rootstock needs to be removed or the rootstock will take over...

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2 hours ago, Laaz said:

Grafting is easy, I learned from Stan. No I have never protected my trees & have ponkan, variegated hamlin & many more. All my citrus are grafted on trifoliate or swingle. Anything that sprouts from the rootstock needs to be removed or the rootstock will take over...

I didn't know that and it took over and strangled off the top part. What happens if you just take seeds out of an orange from the grocery store and plant it in say your garden in Charleston. Would it survive if it was navel or hamlin?

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Pretty much. My ruby red grapefruit is from seed from a fruit I bought at Publix. Most citrus come true to type except clementine and a few others. Navels are pretty much seedless..

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