you cant really "zone push"...

[DoomsDave]

Governor Jerry Brown is also an ex-Jesuit seminarian.

Wonder how god would call satan? And how either would answer?

The diety net?

 

[GottmitAlex]

3 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

Governor Jerry Brown is also an ex-Jesuit seminarian.

Wonder how god would call satan? And how either would answer?

The diety net?

 

The last few times those phones rang they were collect calls. Ironically, it was on the poor mortals' dime.

 

[DoomsDave]

Just now, GottmitAlex said:

The last few times those phones rang they were collect calls. Ironically, it was on the poor mortals' dime.

 

LOL

[palmfriend]

Dave and GmA,

it might be a bad timing to step in here but I thought - now or never - to express what

I think of this very interesting matter...

1. the statement of this thread and "what I think in general":

Well, I think that you can not PUSH zones (e.g. the tropics) in the meaning of planting something tropical

in non-tropical areas to make them tropical - that`s what the term "zone-pushing" in my opinion literally suggests...

I think, historically, vegetation in an area is a RESULT of climatic conditions as a matter of fact. (But on the other

hand, a rapid change of a local vegetation may have an influence on the meteorological situation, e.g. in the

Amazon area - as well.)

2. exceptions:

As mentioned before, there are zones within zones (colder, wet areas in the tropics or even dryer ones and so on)

with a huge range of variations or diversifications, that are - at least in my opinion - constantly moving due geological

developments. Those zones are giving someone (interested) the opportunity to pick up something out of those areas and

to grow it successfully under his/her local conditions.

3. further exceptions:

Another interesting aspect is, that until now geographically totally separated areas may have developed a very similar

climate during the last centuries, so that you can grow something from area A in area B successfully without much

caretaking [e.g. probably a Beccariophoenix alfredii in Cal]

4. futher/further exceptions

Furthermore it should be kept in mind that there are a lot of microclimates that allow to grow e.g. tropical plants in

geographically non-tropical areas without much assistance or caretaking.

5.futher/further/further exceptions

And here is, where this forum and its members come into play - people who caring about their palms more than others and

who try to make the surrounding conditions as suitable as possible to grow them successfully - supported by a large community

of enthusiasts worldwide...

So, after all, a long statement put in short words:

There is a white and black area without doubt, but with a definitely huge area of grey as well.

best regards

 

[GottmitAlex]

Thank you Palmfriend. Your conscientious opinion is sobering, refreshing and gives hope. 

 

 

[Desert DAC]

On 8/10/2016, 3:10:04, SailorBold said:

lol..  Are you trying to get a rise?  I zone push because I want to see if it can be done..and try things in my climate that haven't been attempted before..  If it works out... great..  if not.. that's ok too.  My high desert climate is difficult for any plant...  once the sun goes down.. the temperature drops like a rock... which creates its own challenges. Filifera will grow here.. is it the ideal climate?  No not at all.. but if you provide a more ideal condition than it would get elsewhere.. than perhaps it will grow better than its natural habitat.

Albuquerque has the 2nd (worst?) largest Urban Heat Island effect in the US..    That changes the climate locally.. so it also changes what might be possible to cultivate.  That's why I do it. 

 

Agreed on "pushing", which might actually be trialing if done well!

While I wouldn't plan on global climate change to boost you or I even one USDA zone this century, trying plants naysayers never tried or don't get is worthwhile. As your urban forest of cold-climate and/or mesic species declines even more, you can only benefit using every xeric, native and adapted tree. 

No offense intended towards you - that image on the ABQ urban heat island looks dubious; I was baffled finding it last summer. Daily and long-term climate records in the SW and ABQ, and how the Sunport is set into desert grassland along well-ventilated Tijeras Arroyo w/ little built area, imply a weak UHI at most. I also couldn't find the "rural area" stations and their periods of record referenced; until I see that, my guess is they used cooler areas to back up their hypothesis (Santa Fe, Grants, Cedar Crest, or even the Crest), not representative locations. Las Vegas NV, El Paso, Miami, and Phoenix are some strong UHIs.

The online Western Regional Climate Center is good to compare ABQ to places at similar elevations W of the central mountains...i.e. rural Bernalillo, Belen, Placitas, Los Lunas, Socorro, Laguna Pueblo...little difference. If ABQ increased 22F while those didn't, that image is onto something. Other than the cool '60's to '80's period, it's changed little from the 1890's to now, not even 5F, and some of that is moving from downtown to the current SE heights.

MesoWest is good to verify daily weather, each county can be sorted by elevation, and they archive data. One can see the same patterns over and over, where ABQ is like or unlike, and even the few valley stations much warmer or colder than most of town, the foothills, or the E Mtns.

21 years as a landscape architect on projects in ABQ and the SW, my 2 homes, and countless others'...plus other plant and weather nerds back to the 1950's...and little to nothing plant hardiness-wise changed. Only more plants thriving, tried by folks like you or I, many unavailable 20 or 50 years ago.

I've enjoyed your posts and others', and I look forward to dialoguing more!

Edited January 16, 2017 by Desert DAC
I missed a few items

[Darold Petty]

People who follow the conventional wisdom will never learn anything new.  It doesn't matter that conventional wisdom will be correct 19 out of 20 times.  We are looking for #20.

   I remember when Dypsis decipiens first became widely available to palm horticulture.

  At that time no one had any accurate idea about its true level of frost hardiness. 

[Ben in Norcal]

12 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

People who follow the conventional wisdom will never learn anything new.  It doesn't matter that conventional wisdom will be correct 19 out of 20 times.  We are looking for #20.

   I remember when Dypsis decipiens first became widely available to palm horticulture.

  At that time no one had any accurate idea about its true level of frost hardiness. 

100% agree, Darold.  And, I love the fact that you so graciously enable me with rationale to continue my zone-denial madness! 

[Josh-O]

1 hour ago, Ben in Norcal said:

100% agree, Darold.  And, I love the fact that you so graciously enable me with rationale to continue my zone-denial madness! 

madness??

More like a disease

[Josh-O]

1 hour ago, Darold Petty said:

People who follow the conventional wisdom will never learn anything new.  It doesn't matter that conventional wisdom will be correct 19 out of 20 times.  We are looking for #20.

   I remember when Dypsis decipiens first became widely available to palm horticulture.

  At that time no one had any accurate idea about its true level of frost hardiness. 

for sure

[Phoenikakias]

If you had experienced during your career as palm grower more than once a destructive cold spell, I bet that after second, or mostly third incident, you would become very restraint.

[Jimhardy]

Are you talking about zone pushing?

 

Or zone envy?

 

I really comes down to how much

and how big you want to protect,I didn't just say that!

 

[Phoenikakias]

... and how much you are willing to spend on energy I feel compelled to add.

[rprimbs]

On 1/16/2017, 7:11:06, Darold Petty said:

People who follow the conventional wisdom will never learn anything new.  It doesn't matter that conventional wisdom will be correct 19 out of 20 times.  We are looking for #20.

   I remember when Dypsis decipiens first became widely available to palm horticulture.

  At that time no one had any accurate idea about its true level of frost hardiness. 

Yes, there are "tropical" plants that "hardy" in southern California.  I am thinking of fruit trees.  Durians and mangosteens are out of the question -- except for in greenhouses -- but jackfruit, sapadilla, and star apple (The Vietnamese call it something like 'milk fruit) can be grown and fruited with no protection.  At least at my house.

And I plan on continuing to attempt coconuts.