you cant really "zone push"...

[trioderob]

I was just thinking about zone pushing - you cant do it.

if the palm wants the tropics -  you have to give it the tropics 

you can build a big green house but now you have created an indoor tropics.

for  example in San Diego you can tell yourself you are going to grow massive pelagodoxa henryana.

but if that palm wants the tropics - good luck growing it

palms must be within their zone limits 

zone pushing - cant be done - except by liars 

 

[Ben in Norcal]

Everything isn't so black and white.  "Zone pushing" is not the same thing as growing a tropical palm in a cool Mediterranean climate.  That's closer to "zone skipping," or I don't know what, but obviously a very extreme example.   As with most of life, there is a zone pushing continuum, and it's obviously possible to achieve success for a long period of time by creating an optimal microclimate in, say, high 9b for a low 10a palm.  The difference between long-term failure and success may be only a degree or two, or the difference between overhead canopy and not having it.

[Danilopez89]

What do you mean! 

We are zone pushing in the Desert

 

[PalmTreeDude]

Ehhhh... I can see zone pushing for certain species of palms, for example Sabal palmetto, Sabal minor, and trachycarpus fortunei (just a few examples) but not palms like Coconuts and Royals etc. But, I do see SOME Coconuts in cooler areas... Like the boarder of 9b/10a.

Edited August 10, 2016 by PalmTreeDude

[Danilopez89]

These got the zone pushed 

[Danilopez89]

2 minutes ago, PalmTreeDude said:

Ehhhh... I can see zone pushing for certain species of palms, for example Sabal palmetto, Sabal minor, and trachycarpus fortunei (just a few examples) but not palms like Coconuts and Royals etc. But, I do see SOME Coconuts in cooler areas... Like the boarder of 9b/10a.

No not in the cooler areas. They need the heat. So we find them Coconuts in the low deserts of Southern California.

[PalmTreeDude]

Just now, Danilopez89 said:

No not in the cooler areas. They need the heat. So we find them Coconuts in the low deserts of Southern California.

I mean, like, lower zones.  I worded that badly! My bad!

[trioderob]

I mean to really zone push you would need to selectively breed over many many generations the most cold tolerate palms.

the idea of zone pushing is that you got the plant to do something it normally would never do in the wild.

I saw tropical plants growing in green houses in Iceland  - zone push ?????

Edited August 10, 2016 by trioderob

[Danilopez89]

6 minutes ago, trioderob said:

I mean to really zone push you would need to selectively breed over many many generations the most cold tolerate palms.

the idea of zone pushing is that you got the plant to do something it normally would never do in the wild.

 

huh? 

You mean like, die...?

[Danilopez89]

Either I had to many cervezas or this thread makes no sense. 

[Silas_Sancona]

I have to chuckle each and every time someone makes such a statement.. cuz it simply isn't true.

That being said, when the word "Tropical" or "the Tropics" is spoken, a lot of people automatically think "Lush, Amazon, S.E. Asia.. 6+" of Rain ..nearly daily etc, etc".. The truth is, the "Tropics" include some very dry places. Take the Sonoran Desert.. While yes, technically a "Desert", this version is considered, Gasp!!; Run for the hills in shock n' awe! "Tropical" Desert.. And yet, high above the moister part of this region, just a couple hundred miles south, Orchids and Vase-type Bromeliads grow.. not always down along the River Canyons where Ficus and Sabino ( Montezuma Cypress) hang out, but higher up, where it is cooler among Gasp again! Pine and Oaks.. Oh my!!.

Even in the Wet Tropics, many more fascinating plants come from the Cloud Forests where it is cooler than, down low in the heat.

Does this mean i might be able to have a yard filled with sweet-looking Begonias, Dracula Sp. Orchids, Joeys, and Lipstick palms? Heck no..  Can i attempt stuff from the Caribbean, Arabia and Tropical parts of Africa, sure.. and Gasp, one last time,.. They might just succeed.   The direct Ancestor of the Saguaro is from... somewhere in the West Indies.

Simply put, as Ben stated, forget about blank n' white.. Many, many shades in between.. You may breathe easier now

[trioderob]

ok.....good

[Sabal Steve]

Just because the habitat that a palm is growing in is in a higher numbered USDA zone, doesn't necessarily mean that it won't grow in a lower numbered one - look at Arenga englerii for example, it's native range, and where it's known to grow in cultivation - by your definition, that would be a zone push.

 

Furthermore, as you know, zones on the east don't equate to zones on the West.  

[pin38]

The problem with "zones", as it's been discussed plenty of times, is that they're not black and white. They don't take into account longevity of cold temps, longevity of warm temps, rainy winters, dry winters, rebound days following cold days, microclimates (south-facing, hillside), etc.  Just because a palm won't naturalize in the woods in your climate doesn't mean you can't find grow it with watering on a south-facing wall on a hillside in the warmest part of an urban heat island... USDA zones are very generalized. And maybe after 10 years or so it finally does die, it doesn't mean it wasn't worth it. I really don't get the point of this post haha

[Jim in Los Altos]

If zone pushing is impossible, I guess I live in zone 10b. I've got enough palms and other tropicals growing in my yard year after year that "shouldn't" grow in a 9b-10a garden that are doing quite nicely, thank you, that I'm a FIRM believer in zone pushing. 

[sashaeffer]

19 hours ago, trioderob said:

I was just thinking about zone pushing - you cant do it.

if the palm wants the tropics -  you have to give it the tropics 

you can build a big green house but now you have created an indoor tropics.

for  example in San Diego you can tell yourself you are going to grow massive pelagodoxa henryana.

but if that palm wants the tropics - good luck growing it

palms must be within their zone limits 

zone pushing - cant be done - except by liars 

 

Dumb statement. Someone must be bored.

[SailorBold]

lol..  Are you trying to get a rise?  I zone push because I want to see if it can be done..and try things in my climate that haven't been attempted before..  If it works out... great..  if not.. that's ok too.  My high desert climate is difficult for any plant...  once the sun goes down.. the temperature drops like a rock... which creates its own challenges. Filifera will grow here.. is it the ideal climate?  No not at all.. but if you provide a more ideal condition than it would get elsewhere.. than perhaps it will grow better than its natural habitat.

Albuquerque has the 2nd (worst?) largest Urban Heat Island effect in the US..    That changes the climate locally.. so it also changes what might be possible to cultivate.  That's why I do it. 

 

[Brad Mondel]

That's funny because when I lived in zone 8b I was able to grow Livistona chinensis, Chamaedorea radicalis, Washingtonia robusta and even Syagrus romanzoffiana unprotected. All zone 9 palms. 

Did you forget about microclimates? A south wall in zone 8a could easily be a zone 8b or 9 microclimate but still technically in zone 8a. 

[SailorBold]

We must terraform Mars

[Phoenikakias]

I won't express my opinion out of mercy 

[Matthew92]

Seems that things with the appearance of "too good to be true" can be the most attractive and exciting. I always remember the time when I spotted a completely full sized syagrus romanzoffiana tucked away in someone's backyard here in solid zone 8b. It was one of the most beautiful things I saw: mainly because it stood out wonderfully from the typical, mundane zone 8 vegetation and I had previously thought they couldn't grow here to maturity. In my opinion, I don't care how much you have to protect it, it's just that wow factor and thrill us "zone pushers" strive for.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Opal92

[enigma99]

Meh, you definitely can zone push somewhat. Even if you are USDA zone 9b or 10a officially, you might be warmer or cooler depending on elevation and other factors such as urban heat islands etc. For me, the USDA pinpoint temps are 29F average minimum low and its pretty spot on, but I have seen some areas around here that should be cooler & warmer. But I think it is worth planting canopy to get an extra degree or so to make Zone 10 microclimates for more tender stuff. Same could be said for 8b -> 9a and so on

Edited August 11, 2016 by enigma99

[trioderob]

great thread

[Hammer]

7 hours ago, sashaeffer said:

Dumb statement. Someone must be bored.

Oh like you grow any palms in your yard in Nebraska...oh nevermind. 

[Phoenikakias]

Tell this to all those heroic people in central Europe and inland balkan, who manage to keep ground planted some other palms than Trachycarpus "Bulgaria" in their gardens. But you do not have to go that far. There is also an american guy trying to grow other palms in an area where only certain Sabal minor varieties can survive outdoors...

[sashaeffer]

13 hours ago, Hammer said:

Oh like you grow any palms in your yard in Nebraska...oh nevermind. 

lol you've seen them!  Up to 25 now of various species.

Edited August 11, 2016 by sashaeffer

[cm05]

I had a Trachycarpus fortunei (7b palm) growing successfully in zone 7a. 

But I moved so it's in a pot, for now.

[NorCalKing]

This thread makes me lol

Thanks!

[Hammer]

9 hours ago, sashaeffer said:

lol you've seen them!  Up to 25 now of various species.

My sister and family just moved to Blair.  We are thinking of coming back this fall.  Will have to drop by for a PRA again.

[palmsOrl]

I certainly take advantage of the Orlando urban heat island which enables me to grow many palms which in the past would not have ever been considered seriously.  Queen palms, marginal???  Maybe out in Apopka.  But queens palms did used to be marginal here.  I saw a bunch completely fried when touring plant nurseries well NW of town in early 2009, while it got in the 31-32F range here. 

Nowadays, I like nice large Roystonea and Ptychosperma, just to name a couple that I have found to be succful in the bubble of artificial warmth encompassing inner Orlando.

Zone pushing is one of my favorite aspects of the hobby.  It is also relative, such that a well sited and cared for, established zone 10a palm like foxtail can survive for quite a long time in a warmer 9b between big freezes, same with royals.  I have most of the common 10a stuff in the ground, but since climate data indicates we are 10a (a cold one based on winter average lows and highs), I am zone pushing extensively with 10b material like Cocos, Adonidia, etc.

Make sure as many factors are in the palm's favor as possible, site in a great microclimate and you might be able to grow a Sabal palmetto in the urban core of Atlanta, a lipstick in Miami or a Trachycarpus in Philadelphia.

[sashaeffer]

8 hours ago, Hammer said:

My sister and family just moved to Blair.  We are thinking of coming back this fall.  Will have to drop by for a PRA again.

Yes, let me know if you do. My collection has increased!  but you know how it is, no one ever "stops" buying palms for their collection.

 

Hopefully it won't be so darn cold this time when you visit.

[Hammer]

11 hours ago, sashaeffer said:

Yes, let me know if you do. My collection has increased!  but you know how it is, no one ever "stops" buying palms for their collection.

 

Hopefully it won't be so darn cold this time when you visit.

No kidding.  It would be fun to see the place in its full glory.

[DoomsDave]

On 8/9/2016, 7:08:40, Danilopez89 said:

What do you mean! 

We are zone pushing in the Desert

 

The best part is getting it WRONG

thinking, oh no, it won't grow here . . . .

But it does! Like this Mary Queen of Scots Coconut.

Zones are in our heads . . . .

Palms, thankfully don't grow there.

[GottmitAlex]

30 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

The best part is getting it WRONG

thinking, oh no, it won't grow here . . . .

But it does! Like this Mary Queen of Scots Coconut.

Zones are in our heads . . . .

Palms, thankfully don't grow there.

I can appreciate the humorous historical reference.

That was a good one.

[DoomsDave]

Just now, GottmitAlex said:

I can appreciate the humorous historical reference.

That was a good one.

AH!

A history major?

 

[GottmitAlex]

Just now, DoomsDave said:

AH!

A history major?

 

An ex-seminarian.  But that is another story.

[DoomsDave]

2 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

An ex-seminarian.  But that is another story.

One of the helping professions!

I'm a lawyer. Bet I know part of it!

 

[GottmitAlex]

1 minute ago, DoomsDave said:

One of the helping professions!

I'm a lawyer. Bet I know part of it!

 

Hey nice. Speaking of which, Thomas More is the patron Saint of lawyers. 

 

[DoomsDave]

1 minute ago, GottmitAlex said:

Hey nice. Speaking of which, Thomas More is the patron Saint of lawyers. 

 

And integrity.

Yes.

Good lawyers, anyway.

[GottmitAlex]

5 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

And integrity.

Yes.

Good lawyers, anyway.

LOL. You're right.

Reminds me of this:

An engineer died and reported to the pearly gates. A newly anointed angel, filling in for St. Peter, checked his dossier and grimly said, "Ah, you're an engineer; you're in the wrong place." So the engineer was cast down to the gates of hell and was let in. Pretty soon, the engineer became gravely dissatisfied with the level of discomfort in hell, and began designing and making improvements. After a while, the underworld had air conditioning, flush toilets, and escalators, and the engineer was becoming a pretty popular guy among the demons. One day, God called Satan up on the telephone and asked with a sneer, "So, how's it going down there in hell?" Satan laughed and replied, "Hey, things are going great. We've got air conditioning and flush toilets and escalators, and there's no telling what this engineer is going to come up with next." God's face clouded over and he exploded, "What? You've got an engineer? That's a mistake; he should never have gotten down there; send him up here." Satan shook his head, "No way. I like having an engineer on the staff, and I'm keeping him." God was as mad as he had ever been, "This is not the way things are supposed to work and you know it. Send him back up here or I'll sue." Satan laughed uproariously, "Yeah, right. And just where are YOU going to get a lawyer?" 

 

The sweet irony is I am an engineer. I have a bachelors in computer sciences (BSCS) (Telecom major).

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2016 by GottmitAlex