Rhapis multifida clustering or multiple seeds

[Pal Meir]

Congrats! Looks nice and healthy. I think it is R multifida. Water regularly, but don’t leave water in the saucer. As all Rhapis it does not like wet feet. And don’t fertilize too much! If you do so the tips of the leaflets will turn brown.

[Nessie42]

Thanks, Pal Meir! That it is a Rhapis multifida makes me even more excited about it (not that I wasn't in love with it already ).

When I repot my Rhapis next weekend, I will give it a taller pot and put a thick layer of Leca pellets at the bottom to make sure it can't get wet feet. What kind of fertiliser do you recommend? So far I have been using "Compo Grünpflanzen- und Palmendünger" every other week and at half the recommended strength for all my other Rhapis palms, and with my standard green Rhapis excelsa at least I am not sure it is entirely happy with that.

[Nessie42]

On Mon Aug 01 2016 15:49:46 GMT+0200, Pal Meir said:

The optimum would be (two or) three Rhapis in one wide pot.

Does that go for all Rhapis species, Pal Meir? Out of frustration at the difficulties in obtaining anything except the "standard" Rhapis excelsa, I am currently growing (or attempting to grow) Rhapis subtilis and Rhapis excelsa "Taiwan" from seed and currently have some at the "grass blade stage". When I plant them in proper pots, should I plant two or three of them in each pot?

[Pal Meir]

27 minutes ago, Nessie42 said:

Does that go for all Rhapis species, Pal Meir? Out of frustration at the difficulties in obtaining anything except the "standard" Rhapis excelsa, I am currently growing (or attempting to grow) Rhapis subtilis and Rhapis excelsa "Taiwan" from seed and currently have some at the "grass blade stage". When I plant them in proper pots, should I plant two or three of them in each pot?

I would not repot it now, the size of the pot seems good to me. Wait better till next spring when you have seen how the palm is doing in the new home. — The fert you are using is ok. When you plant your seedlings together two will do it, and pray that one is f and the other m.

[David_Sweden]

Very nice! Not a brown spot in sight even! I love those fronds.

Have you checked for bugs, also between soil and pot? It looks very healthy but better check. And I'm thinking the pot might work for more than one year. As long as you don't have to water very frequently and no major roots peek out. When you do repot don't use more than a layer of leca if any, they make wet feet situation worse by taking away from the height (look up "perched water table" for explanation) unless very high pot. Better to simply use a saucer which you empty after watering.

Pal, how can you tell the difference between humilis and multifida, or is it based on likelihood? And it looks like it's 2 individuals (2 seeds) or what do you think?

[Pal Meir]

3 hours ago, David_Sweden said:

Very nice! Not a brown spot in sight even! I love those fronds.

Have you checked for bugs, also between soil and pot? It looks very healthy but better check. And I'm thinking the pot might work for more than one year. As long as you don't have to water very frequently and no major roots peek out. When you do repot don't use more than a layer of leca if any, they make wet feet situation worse by taking away from the height (look up "perched water table" for explanation) unless very high pot. Better to simply use a saucer which you empty after watering.

Pal, how can you tell the difference between humilis and multifida, or is it based on likelihood? And it looks like it's 2 individuals (2 seeds) or what do you think?

There are a couple features as e.g. the kind of mesh etc. which make me guess it is R multifida. But it is hard to decide only on the basis of those photos.

[Nessie42]

10 minutes ago, Pal Meir said:

There are a couple features as e.g. the kind of mesh etc. which make me guess it is R multifida. But it is hard to decide only on the basis of those photos.

Is there any more information I can provide? I'd love to learn how to make the distinction, and if we can use my plant for that, all the better. 

[Nessie42]

3 hours ago, David_Sweden said:

Have you checked for bugs, also between soil and pot? It looks very healthy but better check. And I'm thinking the pot might work for more than one year. As long as you don't have to water very frequently and no major roots peek out. When you do repot don't use more than a layer of leca if any, they make wet feet situation worse by taking away from the height (look up "perched water table" for explanation) unless very high pot.

Now after you asked, I poked around between soil and pot a bit and inspected that area and the plant all over with a flashlight as well as a UV light (the latter just because I happen to have one, not because I was actually expecting any additional insight ). Found nothing untoward, but of course I am only aspiring and far from an expert.

I  also read up on the "perched water table" in pots - thanks for the tipp, learned something new there. I was going to give it quite a high pot actually, about 27 cm inner diameter and about 37 cm high (partly so it can catch more light, sitting on a bench next to my window), hence the idea of a thick layer of Leca. If you and Pal Meir both think repotting is a bad idea though, I will reconsider. 

[Pal Meir]

34 minutes ago, Nessie42 said:

Is there any more information I can provide? I'd love to learn how to make the distinction, and if we can use my plant for that, all the better. 

Here some infos available in www; others in Riffle & Craft 2003, Henderson 2008, 2009.

http://www.palms.org/palmsjournal/2003/vol47n2p62-78.pdf
http://www.palms.org/palmsjournal/2008/palms52no4p181-186.pdf
http://www.palms.org/palmsjournal/2006/v50n1p11-22.pdf
http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Category:RHAPIS

 

[David_Sweden]

I think it is not likely to need repotting due to the size of the pot but if you want to change to a similar sized pot for aesthetic reasons then sure why not, but if I were you I'd wait until you've seen that it grows normal amount of millimeters per day since some plants can get into shock when travelling in parcel and changing environment. I don't think Rh multifida gets into shock bu a couple of days in parcel in August but you never know how it was treated before, maybe it recently got here from Spain of whatever. I don't know how much "normal growth" is, for a normal palm I'd say about 10mm/day but Rh multifida I think is slower, but at least a few mm maybe?

[Kris]

Hi,

This is a still taken from a botanical garden in Bangalore,What variety of Rhapis palm is this ?

Thanks and love,

Kris.

 

 

[dmc]

I planted 3 seperate plants in this pot

Grown from seed from RPS. Mabey 2 or 3 years

Dominic 

[David_Sweden]

Wow. Only 2 or 3 years? It looks much better than the 12 year old plant grown in Sweden I posted pics of on Aug 3rd in this thread. Can't really see the height from those angles tho. It is so green and lush. What's the secret?! Do you live in Florida or what does "Stuart fl" mean?

[dmc]

Here ya go  I don't know about a secret mabey just luck  

Dominic

 

[Pal Meir]

This R multifida germinated on 2002-12-27 (seed from RPS); the photo was taken nearly 2 years & 9 months later:

[Pal Meir]

26 minutes ago, Pal Meir said:

This R multifida germinated on 2002-12-27 (seed from RPS); the photo was taken nearly 2 years & 9 months later:

Oops, I meant 3 years & 9 months …

[David_Sweden]

Very nice. And faster than I would have thought.

I already ordered 10 seeds , from seedman, don't know how dependable they are but no one else had them. In an old forum thread here it says they don't even ship to Sweden but they do, they sent it as a trackable USPS "small packet" just one day after my order.

I'd like 3 plants per pot. Would you start each seed in a small individual pot or place 3 seeds together from the start? One inch between them sounds ok? Some seeds need deep pots from the start because they send a radical downwards maybe 20 cm or so before any leaves at all show but I don't think that's the case with these i e I can use a small shallow pot to start with?

I haven't planted palm seeds before. One thing that worries me is the risk for bugs. I read how you dip them in insecticide and so on, hopefully that helps but I'm wondering: What bugs exactly is it that people worry about getting, I'm guessing something that bores into seeds? If they bore into the seeds can't I spot holes with a loupe? And if I should get a bug is it really a danger to anything but seeds, I mean do they also bore into stems or something? I thought stem borers would be a different species?

[Nessie42]

What stunning plants, dmc and Pal Meir!   

What germination method/medium did you use?

[Nessie42]

4 hours ago, David_Sweden said:

I already ordered 10 seeds , from seedman, don't know how dependable they are but no one else had them. In an old forum thread here it says they don't even ship to Sweden but they do, they sent it as a trackable USPS "small packet" just one day after my order.

Has your order arrived yet? I am currently trying my luck again with Rhapis multifida seeds I ordered from Seedman as well.

I got Rhapis multifida seeds from Sementes in spring this year but had no success at all with germination. This likely is largely to blame on my inexperience. At the same time, with all the palm seeds I got from RPS (Rhapis subtilis, Rhapis excelsa 'Taiwan' and Trachycarpus latisectus) at least some are at the "blade of grass stage" now, so I thought the seed material might have been a factor as well. 

Fingers crossed I will actually end up with some Rhapis multifida seedlings this time around!

[Missi]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2016‎ ‎2‎:‎40‎:‎07‎, David_Sweden said:

Interesting Paul and nice photos. I thought you were kidding when you recommended 1 male with 2 females. The first photo even looks like two seeds (my Lipstick has an array of heights on the suckers which makes it easy to tell they're suckers). Is it common that the male of a clustering species is not clustering as you say for the R cochinchinensis?

Dave, the price is a bit high, €250 plus shipping, but I know of no options. I know it is not a high price for a R.M. of 130-140cm plus pot if it was in shape since they grow slowly but considering the work it needs and the time before it will look healthy I think it's a bit much. Will ask palmswholesale (aka Coconut Climber) when/if he's back from vacation tho. Is that guy a member here?

I don't know if I dare to aim at splitting it up into several live parts especially if severily root bound, my plan was rather to sacrifice some part by simply cutting it off but not messing with the roots, just add some soil around the root ball.

PS I make an effort to keep humidity above 40% almost always, and during the winter between 50 and 65% fo a few hours most days in the daytime (they can't photosynthesize if they close their stomata, like grandma always said..). And they send palms well packaged, I'm not too worried about that. More troubled about the fact that more than every other several-year-old plant I buy from within the EU is infected by some serious bug, usually mealybugs. I blame the EU for not allowing growers to use any pesticides that work. Plants from outside the EU never had any bugs. I have found efficient ways to exterminate them but I don't like having to do that.

Oh! I've purchased several palm seedlings from Coconut Climber! Including my Sabal mauritiiformis and Pseudophoenix sargentii from him. How long has he been inactive?  I hope he returns!

Years ago I purchased two young (maybe 10") R. multifida (that I planted together in the same pot) on eBay but not from Coconut Climber. It has gone through its bouts of spear pull (maybe from watering from above?) and I think it is getting too much light (and fertilizer, now that the good Pal Meir mentions it). I will post pics tonight!

[Nessie42]

3 hours ago, Missi said:

Years ago I purchased two young (maybe 10") R. multifida (that I planted together in the same pot) on eBay but not from Coconut Climber. It has gone through its bouts of spear pull (maybe from watering from above?) and I think it is getting too much light (and fertilizer, now that the good Pal Meir mentions it). I will post pics tonight!

Oh please do, Missi, I would love to see some pics! 

[Missi]

Just a fair warning...already seeing how you guys like your multifidas, mine will probably come across as an eye sore because I had to trim up a lot of the lower fronds to get some sooty mold under control. It's hard to simply wipe off such narrow leaflets  Also, I let the soil go dry on this and my R. excelsa probably more often than I should. Maybe also too much fertilizer and too much light? I'm not sure how long I've had it them - under 5 years. They were maybe 10" or under when I received them in the mail. I have a lot of high maintenance young potted palms so I neglected my Rhapis but about a month ago I started paying them more attention. Also, don't judge the grass in the background, I have 5 dogs! 

[David_Sweden]

Seedman took only 5 days from the US to Europe, that's not bad.. :-)

Have decided to start them up with paper towel method, not only because it's recommended for difficult seeds but also because then I can see if any bug emerges and also they won't get out of the ziplock. And then I am sure I get 3 stems in a pot. Too bad I can't see which are male and female but chances are 75% I don't get all one gender. Not sure if I should wait until leaves emerge before put in soil or just until there's a few cm of radicle? Assuming at least one of them sprout ;-)

Coconut Climber has been missing for months, there's a special thread about that

I love those fronds Missi :-)

[David_Sweden]

So far very impressive service with Seedman, and they even have a germination guarantee: The will replace any seed that doesn't germinate, they say. Sounds too good to be true to me, because even with perfect seeds and perfectly knowledgeable buyer, many species have <20% germination rate. And the postage to Europe costs more than my 15 seeds. So will they really replace every seed that soesn't germinate? And should I wait for let's say a year to see if they surely aren't viable, then require new ones, assuming they very recently had a new batch of these rare seeds, because the present batch must be old by then. We'll see..

The seeds were mostly beige in color and "hairy", except 3 of them were dark brown and 3 of them had a dark brown spot on ~10% of the surface (and many of the other ones are possibly partly dark, I hope to be able to see that better on Saturday when I plan to scrub them. I took one of the ones with a dark dot and cut it open. It was hard and didn't smell BUT the center 1/3 was dark brown and connected to the dark brown dot. The rest was "nut colored". That one's dead for sure, and at least 5 others I think, although I'm no expert. I will plant the rest and hope for the best.

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

I've been trying to find R. Multifida forever.  No one ever carries them around here. I've seen one once and it was huge and extremely expensive.   I love the trimmed up look where you can see he trunks and I do t like lots of trunks in one pot.  I would love to find a multifida that looks like these two below.  Even on earth like Missi's is beautiful to me.  Any ideas where I could get one about the look, height and 1-3 in a pot (pref 1-2 trunks) like these?  (Yes I'm borrowing a couple pics from this thread, thanks! 

:-) 

[David_Sweden]

Since you live in the US I guess it is maybe too complicated and expensive to import (from Palme Per Paket or Chinese growers on Alibaba)? But I would be surprised if no US growers have some. I found two after a quick search:

http://realpalmtrees.com/palm-tree-store/catalogsearch/result/?q=rhapis+multifida

http://www.junglemusic.net/careandcommon.asp?species=Rhapis%20multifida#availability

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

19 hours ago, David_Sweden said:

Since you live in the US I guess it is maybe too complicated and expensive to import (from Palme Per Paket or Chinese growers on Alibaba)? But I would be surprised if no US growers have some. I found two after a quick search:

http://realpalmtrees.com/palm-tree-store/catalogsearch/result/?q=rhapis+multifida

http://www.junglemusic.net/careandcommon.asp?species=Rhapis%20multifida#availability

Thanks for that.  I know about Phil.  I trust them.  Pretty sure I have ordered from them before and it was great. 

   The other one I don't trust at all. In fact that person used to have an account on gardenweb and all they would do is violate the form rules and constantly promote their website .  They guy whoever it was posting had no knowledge of palms at all and even that website had things completely mislabeled.  I have avoided them since their inception which was something like 5-8 years ago.     I was hoping that maybe tjer were other not so public sources here.    When I get back from my next upcoming trip to Florida I will give Phil a call and see what he's got.   I talked to him a few weeks back about a tepejilote and I meee to order that soon.   :-)   

[Nessie42]

On Sun Sep 18 2016 19:28:02 GMT+0200, David_Sweden said:

The seeds were mostly beige in color and "hairy", except 3 of them were dark brown and 3 of them had a dark brown spot on ~10% of the surface (and many of the other ones are possibly partly dark, I hope to be able to see that better on Saturday when I plan to scrub them. I took one of the ones with a dark dot and cut it open. It was hard and didn't smell BUT the center 1/3 was dark brown and connected to the dark brown dot. The rest was "nut colored". That one's dead for sure, and at least 5 others I think, although I'm no expert. I will plant the rest and hope for the best.

Hm, I didn't go that far with my order from Seedman. There likely were some dead ones in there too then.  I planted all of my seeds about four weeks ago, so it will be a while yet before I get any action and (hopefully) know whether they were viable. Have you planted yours yet, David?

PS I was up in your neck of the woods last week for work and was pleasantly surprised to see so many palms in pots in the streets there (and my colleagues looked at me funny for pointing that out ).

 

[Nessie42]

On Tue Sep 13 2016 02:32:39 GMT+0200, Missi said:

I'm not sure how long I've had it them - under 5 years. They were maybe 10" or under when I received them in the mail.

I love your Rhapis multifida, Missi, and it looks like they have grown a fair amount since you first got them. The fronds do look amazing. 

Do you always keep them by that window front, and in which direction is that facing?

[David_Sweden]

Nessie, I just cleaned the seeds yesterday and will "pot" them (or rather put in ziplock bags) today. None of the seeds were floating after 1h and the black parts on some of them came off when claning; they vary between chestnut clolored and "nut beige" (and I find it hard to tell when to stop cleaning but no matter how I do it they usually turned out "patchy" with both these colors). Tried different tools for cleaning. 2nd best was a rather dull jackknife but best was my old favorite screwdriver, one with a wide thin blade but free from burrs and sharp edges. Anyways.. seems there is hope they might be viable. Thanks to the bags I will be able to see if they grow early on and also they will lock in bugs.. :-/

[Nessie42]

David, you still make me nervous, I never cleaned my seeds at all, just soaked them, stuck them in the potting medium and hoped for the best. 

Mine are "potted" in clear plastic cups with lids, so at least as far as potential bug infestation is concerned, that should be kept in too.

[Missi]

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2016‎ ‎5‎:‎07‎:‎16‎, Nessie42 said:

I love your Rhapis multifida, Missi, and it looks like they have grown a fair amount since you first got them. The fronds do look amazing. 

Do you always keep them by that window front, and in which direction is that facing?

Oh, gosh! Thanks so much  It has been in this position for a couple months. Before that, it was in a similar position, though. That's actually just screen, not a window. It must block more sun than glass.

Another thing has me thinking about the brown leaflet tips on my R. multis (and my R. excelsa is much worse with maybe an inch of brown tips!) I used to not flush the soil so well and salts accumulated. Several months ago I started flushing the soil much better  I really did neglect my Rhapises. The newest growth on these babies and my R. excelsa are much happier

[David_Sweden]

Nessie, now that I've bought seeds from 3 different suppliers, it seems to me they in general come very well cleaned. For the other seeds it was obvious, for Rh Multifida it wasn't as easy to tell. The general recommendation is to clean off old fruit pulp since it can contain growth inhibitors but if it is valid for Rhapis I haven't checked.

Missi, I totally agree on the "soil flushing" or "leaching" as they also call it. When I started to read up extensively on the subject of palm care 3 years ago I had only one palm, a Kentia. I felt really proud having been able to keep it alive for several years. After reading a lot I concluded I should probably be arrested for palm mistreatment, and that it looked pretty good was mostly due to that Kentias are very forgiving. Over the years a couple of new fronds came each year but the same amount died and it never gained height. Of all the things I improved, the single most important thing is leaching. I read the recommendation is to do it 2-3 times per year and use water 2-3 times the soil volume. However now I've taken this one step further and ordered an RO filter system (Reverse Osmosis). That way I can cut down on the leaching, I think I'll do it just once per year, and I hope it will make my most sensitive palms have less brown tips. (I just read there's a possibility RO lowers pH though, I'll have to check that.) Nowadays my Kentia is twice as high, we'll have to move to a bigger apartment within a year :-)

[Missi]

On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2016‎ ‎3‎:‎28‎:‎37‎, David_Sweden said:

Nessie, now that I've bought seeds from 3 different suppliers, it seems to me they in general come very well cleaned. For the other seeds it was obvious, for Rh Multifida it wasn't as easy to tell. The general recommendation is to clean off old fruit pulp since it can contain growth inhibitors but if it is valid for Rhapis I haven't checked.

Missi, I totally agree on the "soil flushing" or "leaching" as they also call it. When I started to read up extensively on the subject of palm care 3 years ago I had only one palm, a Kentia. I felt really proud having been able to keep it alive for several years. After reading a lot I concluded I should probably be arrested for palm mistreatment, and that it looked pretty good was mostly due to that Kentias are very forgiving. Over the years a couple of new fronds came each year but the same amount died and it never gained height. Of all the things I improved, the single most important thing is leaching. I read the recommendation is to do it 2-3 times per year and use water 2-3 times the soil volume. However now I've taken this one step further and ordered an RO filter system (Reverse Osmosis). That way I can cut down on the leaching, I think I'll do it just once per year, and I hope it will make my most sensitive palms have less brown tips. (I just read there's a possibility RO lowers pH though, I'll have to check that.) Nowadays my Kentia is twice as high, we'll have to move to a bigger apartment within a year :-)

Did you order a whole-home RO system, an under sink filter, or ??? How I'd LOVE a whole-home system! Quite the investment when we need other things done to our home right now, though.

[Nessie42]

On Sat Sep 24 2016 09:49:39 GMT+0200, David_Sweden said:

Nessie, I just cleaned the seeds yesterday and will "pot" them (or rather put in ziplock bags) today.

David, have you had any success yet in germinating your Rhapis multifida seeds?

[sashaeffer]

On 8/1/2016, 6:12:13, David_Sweden said:

Yeah it's amazingly pretty (when grown naturally, not by bastards who fill the bucket with seeds). Or if anyone has tips about anyone else selling Multifidas (over 1 meter) to Europe? Not that I mind ordering from e g the US but it's a bit illegal unless you pay for expensive certificates. (And palmswholesale on ebay seems to either be on vacation or left for good, wonder which.)

I hope it's not like 20 seeds so that only 5% remains after the operation.. :-/

I have Paul's (palm Wholesale) email address and in the spring he told me he was going to turn his Ebay store back on in May/June but that never happened  and he hasn't replied to any other emails from me.  His operation was too big to simply quit unless he just did on Ebay and sells locally only. Can only guess.

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

On 9/22/2016, 11:04:30, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

Thanks for that.  I know about Phil.  I trust them.  Pretty sure I have ordered from them before and it was great. 

   The other one I don't trust at all. In fact that person used to have an account on gardenweb and all they would do is violate the form rules and constantly promote their website .  They guy whoever it was posting had no knowledge of palms at all and even that website had things completely mislabeled.  I have avoided them since their inception which was something like 5-8 years ago.     I was hoping that maybe tjer were other not so public sources here.    When I get back from my next upcoming trip to Florida I will give Phil a call and see what he's got.   I talked to him a few weeks back about a tepejilote and I meee to order that soon.   :-)   

So just an update in my search.  I did check with Phil and all he had at the time (back in November) was a large commercial sized Multifida.  Not what I was looking for. I have emailed him 2-3 times since, but have not heard anything back.   Again, I don't feel good about real palm trees, and it also appears all they have is large ones that they want $500 for.   I will never spend that much on a palm, unless its large and will go in a yard I have in Florida, where I currently do not yet live.    

However, after months of searching, one did finally randomly show up on ebay as multifida.  It is small ish, about 1 foot.  It appears to just beginning to produce juvenile to adult leaves.  I did purchase it and should have it by the end of the month. I really do hope it is what it says it is, and from everything that I can tell it looks like it.  Hopefully when it gets here it will be in great shape and healthy.  The seller has 99.5% or so excellent feedback.  It is coming from Hollywood, FL.  

I will keep you all updated and post photos when it arrives.     Anyone having luck with their seeds?  More photos would be awesome. haha. 

[Pal Meir]

3 hours ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

     Anyone having luck with their seeds?  More photos would be awesome. haha. 

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

On 4/8/2017, 6:45:15, Pal Meir said:

Very beautiful Pal!    What do they look like now?    I notice the date is 2003.    What about anyone else that has started seeds in say 2015 or 16? 

[Pal Meir]

10 hours ago, DCA_Palm_Fan said:

Very beautiful Pal!    What do they look like now?    I notice the date is 2003.    What about anyone else that has started seeds in say 2015 or 16? 

I gave all of them away in 2008.