Chamaerops

[wimmie]

The other day I visited a big wholesaler here in Holland. There were thousands of Chamaerops palms, big and small. Amongst all these palms my eye was caught by a young plant from which the beginning of the petioles, so near the base, were purple.  I have never before seen this colour in Chamaerops humilis. Anyone else?

 

Regards,

Wim.

[Brad Mondel]

Yes, I have one like this. I think it's a hybrid between argentea and humilus. 

[sergiskan]

Some ceriferas also has it.

[Neil C]

I seem to remember a topic about these maybe on the EPS forum?

Any photos of all those Chamaerops at the wholesaler?

 

Regards Neil

[Brad Mondel]

Here's mine: 

 

compare frond shape to argentea (cerifera):

[wimmie]

Brad, the shape of your cerifera's is what the French call "duplicifolia", multiple split leaflets which give the plant a very elegant appearance!

 

Regards,

Wim.

[sergiskan]

4 hours ago, Brad Mondel said:

Here's mine: 

 

compare frond shape to argentea (cerifera):

True, Cerifera is synonym of Argentea. Sorry.

 

[Brad Mondel]

The green palm at the bottom is the palm I think is a hybrid between the two. It has the purple petioles. I used an argentea picture to compare the two which is the blue palm in the middle picture. Sorry for any confusion. 

[sergiskan]

do you created this hybrid? how old is it?

do you have pics with the whole palm?

thanks.

[Brad Mondel]

22 hours ago, sergiskan said:

do you created this hybrid? how old is it?

do you have pics with the whole palm?

thanks.

No I didn't create it, I found it. I'm not sure how old it is but here is some more pictures! I love it  

[Kris]

Dear Brad,

Nice visuals and nice palm.

Love, 

Kris. 

[Kostas]

One of my young C. humilis also has this colour on its petiole bases

[Phoenikakias]

On 18/7/2016, 5:01:57, Brad Mondel said:

Yes, I have one like this. I think it's a hybrid between argentea and humilus. 

Interesting approach, although I tend to disagree. The French have already described a cultivar as Chamaerops melanacantha, meaning having black spines. I think it is of this sort the plant in discussion. Wimmie, are its leaves also stiffer than on regular Chamaerops? If by any means I wanted to attribute to black petioled Chamaerops a certain property, this would be that it grower bigger and faster...

[Phoenikakias]

On 18/7/2016, 5:01:57, Brad Mondel said:

Yes, I have one like this. I think it's a hybrid between argentea and humilus. 

Interesting approach, although I tend to disagree. The French have already described a cultivar as Chamaerops melanacantha, meaning having black spines. I think it is of this sort the plant in discussion. Wimmie, are its leaves also stiffer than on regular Chamaerops? If by any means I wanted to attribute to black petioled Chamaerops a certain property, this would be that it grower bigger and faster...

[Phoenikakias]

10 hours ago, Brad Mondel said:

No I didn't create it, I found it. I'm not sure how old it is but here is some more pictures! I love it  

I have an identical plant (albeit without black petioles) and I am pretty sure it is a cerifera hybrid, as I know exactly its origin.

[Brad Mondel]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

I have an identical plant (albeit without black petioles) and I am pretty sure it is a cerifera hybrid, as I know exactly its origin.

Interesting, can you post pictures? When my "hybrid" unfolds new fronds it has a very slight epicuticular wax coating but fades away quickly. 

I've never seen black petioles on a Chamaerops either, the pups on the tree have very dark petioles too. 

[sergiskan]

13 hours ago, Brad Mondel said:

No I didn't create it, I found it. I'm not sure how old it is but here is some more pictures! I love it  

 

very nice shape, so elegant.

Edited July 20, 2016 by sergiskan

[Phoenikakias]

1 hour ago, Brad Mondel said:

Interesting, can you post pictures? When my "hybrid" unfolds new fronds it has a very slight epicuticular wax coating but fades away quickly. 

I've never seen black petioles on a Chamaerops either, the pups on the tree have very dark petioles too. 

Err, by black petioles I mean the darker tint on the lower part of the petioles, just as shown in the initial pictures;  ok you may call it purple in the lighter shades. I will bring up pictures of mine soon. Resemblance is really remarkable.

[sergiskan]

This is my vulcano x cerifera hybrid.

it lose the black petioles from his father.(photo above)

i grow four of these, this is the only one that has some wax in his fronds.

[Brad Mondel]

13 minutes ago, sergiskan said:

This is my vulcano x cerifera hybrid.

it lose the black petioles from his father.(photo above)

i grow four of these, this is the only one that has some wax in his fronds.

It looks a lot like mine! Except the leaflets aren't as split as mine, but they're all variable when it comes to that. Thanks for sharing! What about those petioles?

[sergiskan]

maybe the color of the petioles is a recessive

characteristic, or it belongs to the mother.

the mother is a vulcano with green petioles,

Konstantinos is a person with a lot of

 knowledge, he can check out the doubts.

Also make the reverse cross, cerifera X vulcano, they are smaller, I will take some photos.

sorry for my bad English.

[Neil C]

Keeping the silver of cerifera and the leaf shape of vulcano would be an exceptional plant. I assume this is what you are trying to achieve with this cross. It's a shame that you get the colour of the vulcano and the leaf shape of cerifera. Still a nice plant though.

Regards Neil

[sergiskan]

2 hours ago, Neil C said:

Keeping the silver of cerifera and the leaf shape of vulcano would be an exceptional plant. I assume this is what you are trying to achieve with this cross. It's a shame that you get the colour of the vulcano and the leaf shape of cerifera. Still a nice plant though.

Regards Neil

Bingo!, that is my intention!LOL!

But any offsprings does not looks like the mother with white/blue leafs.:)

Regards.

Sergi.

[Flow]

On 18.7.2016, 04:01:57, Brad Mondel said:

Yes, I have one like this. I think it's a hybrid between argentea and humilus. 

I also have a Chamerops with black petiole bases – plus it has red flower pouches, just like cerifera. The leaves are plain green.

Pics from last year.

 

[Brad Mondel]

Beautiful Palm flow! what do the seeds look like compared to humilus and argentea?

[sergiskan]

Beauty chammy Flow.

looks strong!, hybrid?

[Flow]

Thanks, I like it a lot. Maybe it's a hybrid but who knows..? It is very trouble free but does get some black spots on the leaves during winter (which is very wet here). Annual precipitation is around 1100mm/year (ie. it rains all the time).

Brad, I have no male plant, so it usually doesn't set seed. However, I hand-pollinated it last year with vulcano pollen that a friend gave me. I just threw the pollen over the inflorescences and got a very poor result, only 8 viable seeds.

Still, were it to be a hybrid with cerifera, the offspring would be a total mongrel;-). Something like (humilis x cerifera) x vulcano. Very interesting.

Here's a pic of the seeds and one from inside the house. It looks quite distinct from different angles.

[Brad Mondel]

Thanks for sharing! I'm glad to hear it does well in the rain, hopefully mine will as well this coming winter. The seeds are interesting, humilus seeds I collected were  more spherical than yours. 

[Flow]

I have seen many seed shapes, Konstantinos (Phoenikakias) would be the expert. If I remember correctly, he said the oval ones are more vigorous or grow faster but maybe that's an overgeneralisation.

I don't know your climate but if it doens't get too cold, moisture is not an issue. I am sure yours will be fine.

 

[Phoenikakias]

2 hours ago, Flow said:

I have seen many seed shapes, Konstantinos (Phoenikakias) would be the expert. If I remember correctly, he said the oval ones are more vigorous or grow faster but maybe that's an overgeneralisation.

I don't know your climate but if it doens't get too cold, moisture is not an issue. I am sure yours will be fine.

 

 

2 hours ago, Flow said:

I have seen many seed shapes, Konstantinos (Phoenikakias) would be the expert. If I remember correctly, he said the oval ones are more vigorous or grow faster but maybe that's an overgeneralisation.

I don't know your climate but if it doens't get too cold, moisture is not an issue. I am sure yours will be fine.

 

I have two plants from a crossing of male duplicifolia cerifera with a gracile cultivar with a weak spiny habit and entire segments (tips barely split). The first one inherited the duplicifolia habit but remained green while the younger one retained the entire segments from mother but it has an obvious glaucous color on the leaves. Both however have a very prominent spiny habit. Spines are on both yellow but on older hybrid used to be black at a younger age.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Phoenikakias

[Phoenikakias]

Ok, this is an offshoot about 6 y.o., which has no whatever resemblance to cerifera but it has black/purple leaf bases. In terms of growth speed for Chamaerops it is a beast.

[Phoenikakias]

[Phoenikakias]

In sorry for the delayed response, but I was lacking an Internet connection. Continuing, here are two different groups of plants coming all from the same batch of seeds of a vulcano 

[Phoenikakias]

Do you notice the difference in size between plants in the two pots? The plants in the pot on the right side are larger though they grow under identical conditions and all have same age exactly. Actually a view from above does not reveal considerable differences on leaf shape between the two groups. Group on the left

[Phoenikakias]

Group on the right

[Phoenikakias]

But guess what, the plants on the right have purple stem

[Brad Mondel]

Do you think the presence of purple petioles might indicate faster growth? 

[Phoenikakias]

Now another case: Those are four seedlings of same sage and growing under same conditions. They come from seeds as result of an intended cross between a dwarfy type and cerifera. Seeds were kindly gifted to me by Trava. Do you notice the difference in size of the two on the left compared to the two on the right? 

 

[Phoenikakias]

Yes you have guessed correctly, the bigger ones have purple on stem. Not sure if picture can capture the purple color, because plants are still very young, but purple is there! Yes Brad, I have reasons to believe that purple is somehow connected with faster growth. But more data are needed for a positive answer. All Chamaerops growers should keep open eyes in this respect so that many cases can be inspected. 

[Phoenikakias]

Yes you have guessed correctly, the bigger ones have purple on stem. Not sure if picture can capture the purple color, because plants are still very young, but purple is there! Yes Brad, I have reasons to believe that purple is somehow connected with faster growth. But more data are needed for a positive answer. All Chamaerops growers should keep open eyes in this respect so that many cases can be inspected.