Caryota no in Southern California

[Tracy]

Having heard from Dooms Dave that I shouldn't be surprised if my Caryota no does not survive here in coastal Southern California, I thought I would ask and see if anyone else is growing it nearby or has tried it in the coastal zone of So Cal.  Mine has survived for a couple of mild winters in a pot, even hosting a humming bird nest one time.  At the end of this summer I finally got it in the ground and it seems to be adjusting well, even pushing a new spike up this last several weeks (even through last month's cold spell).  Anyone have any recent experiences or photos to share?

[quaman58]

I think that in your coastal zone, you should be fine. I've been growing a palm purchased as Caryota basconensis (originally from Floribunda). It was less cold hardy as a seedling, spotting badly during winters, but after several years seems to be "hardening up",  & on it's way. I think that your C. no should do similarly. 

[quaman58]

Btw, what's the Cycad to the right of it?

[Tracy]

57 minutes ago, quaman58 said:

Btw, what's the Cycad to the right of it?

It is a Cycas thouarsii x cupida I got from George Sparkman.  The early morning light of the photo doesn't do the color justice, as it has a noticeable blue tint when compared to a straight thouarsii.  It's another plant which was cultivated in a pot in my Carlsbad garden waiting patiently to get in the ground in Leucadia.  I have tried to balance my garden water needs by planting many cycads, aloes, and a few agave's to balance the needs of my more thirsty plants.

[DoomsDave]

Tracy!

Prove me wrong!

Sometimes the coast has the most . . . .

[Tracy]

5 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

Tracy!

Prove me wrong!

Sometimes the coast has the most . . . .

In this case, I'm hoping I can prove you wrong.  My wife's favorite palm in the Carlsbad yard was the Caryota gigas, so this was the substitute in the new garden.  I will be in trouble if it doesn't survive!

[DoomsDave]

Gigas is a much easier grow here.

No is a bit smaller, isn't it?

[Tracy]

11 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

No is a bit smaller, isn't it

That was my understanding and the reason for switching.  It allows me to stuff more in a small space.

[Firepalm]

I know of a few people growing Caryota No in Encinitas that seem to be doing fine so far.  I've seen some incredible Urens too if the No doesn't work out.  

[Cindy Adair]

I know nothing about growing palms in California but am glad to read here that yours may do well.

I am a fan of both C. gigas and C. no at least when they are small.

Even though I have mine side by side they look similar. Your post gave me an excuse to take a break from cleaning prior to the arrival of some visitors and trek for some photos.

Here is Caryota no.

 

 

 

[Cindy Adair]

Next is C. gigas followed by a closeup of the much narrower leaflets of the clustering C. mitis for comparison.

[MattyB]

Looks good Tracy.  I've always been told that C. no is a "no go" for us in SoCal, so you must be doing something right.  I have a few different unknown Caryota and one thing I've learned is to keep them well fertilized, especially with lots of iron and that helps keep them from yellowing out, which they're prone to doing.

[Matt in OC]

How does one distinguish between a C. no and C. urens as a juvenile? 

[Tracy]

6 hours ago, Cindy Adair said:

Next is C. gigas followed by a closeup of the much narrower leaflets of the clustering C. mitis for comparison.

Thanks for sharing those photos Cindy.  I have both the C no in the new garden in mostly full sun, and only small parts of the C gigas in my other home ever get any shade (varies with the time of year).  Matty is right, I need to give both a bit more fertilizer, but its tough to feed the gigas as it is on a slope, and time released tends to run to the base of the slope.

[Tracy]

A friend who lives in Anaheim sent me this photo of a Caryota to identify.  This is near his home in Anaheim, CA.  It is clearly smaller than a C gigas, and doesn't have the dark trunk that gigas has.  I am guessing it is C no.  No? Si? Maybe?

[DoomsDave]

3 hours ago, Tracy said:

A friend who lives in Anaheim sent me this photo of a Caryota to identify.  This is near his home in Anaheim, CA.  It is clearly smaller than a C gigas, and doesn't have the dark trunk that gigas has.  I am guessing it is C no.  No? Si? Maybe?

Yes, that looks like a no!

 

[Palm Tree Jim]

3 hours ago, Tracy said:

A friend who lives in Anaheim sent me this photo of a Caryota to identify.  This is near his home in Anaheim, CA.  It is clearly smaller than a C gigas, and doesn't have the dark trunk that gigas has.  I am guessing it is C no.  No? Si? Maybe?

Looking good!

[Tracy]

On 2/16/2016, 6:45:06, Tracy said:

Having heard from Dooms Dave that I shouldn't be surprised if my Caryota no does not survive here in coastal Southern California, I thought I would ask and see if anyone else is growing it nearby or has tried it in the coastal zone of So Cal.  Mine has survived for a couple of mild winters in a pot, even hosting a humming bird nest one time.  At the end of this summer I finally got it in the ground and it seems to be adjusting well, even pushing a new spike up this last several weeks (even through last month's cold spell).

Bump... it is still surviving and doing well here in coastal San Diego County I am happy to say.  I can already see that there will be substantial space between the rings when the first couple of leaves are dropped.

[Palm Tree Jim]

Tracy,

That has had some significant growth.

Did you change how you were fertilizing?

[Tracy]

4 hours ago, Palm Tree Jim said:

That has had some significant growth.

Did you change how you were fertilizing?

No change in fertilizer regime, but it often gets a little extra water when I rinse sand off my feet when I get home from a surf!  It is right inside the gate, very close to the first hose bib in the back yard.  It seems that it can't get too much water.  Relative to the growth, I think it was just waiting to get into the ground more than anything.  It is a vigorous grower!

[Tracy]

With the new edition of the Palm Society of Southern California, Palm Journal Issue 214 arriving, with an emphasis on Arenga, Caryota & Wallichia, I was reviewing my Caryota again.  I had hoped that my Caryota would start growing longer rachis off which the bi-pinnate sub-rachis are grown and leaflets are carried (not sure if my botanical description is accurate, but you probably understand what I mean).  At this stage it is resembling a Caryota urens which grows very vertically with short bipinnate leaves (fronds) coming off the trunk.  I liked the long leaf spread on my Caryota gigas, but just wanted a junior size of it in my new garden, which is what I thought a Caryota no would resemble. 
Finally, given comments in one of the Journal's articles that Caryota no is a "no go" in Southern California, I'm wondering if the seeds were mislabeled and mine isn't Caryota no.  So if you live somewhere that Caryota no grows well and have seen them at a similar size as mine, I'm hoping for your opinion as to whether this looks like "no" or something else (possibly urens).  It does have a distinctive droop at the end of the main rachis, which you will see in a couple of the photos posted below.  If you are growing Caryota no in Southern California, I would encourage you to share your experience and photos as well.

[Fusca]

Whichever one it is, it looks good   Nice growth in less than 2 years.

Jon

[Matt in OC]

It's a crappy picture, but here are mine, which I figure are Urens and a similar size to yours. You can see a similar level of droop.

[Tracy]

8 minutes ago, Matt in OC said:

here are mine, which I figure are Urens and a similar size to yours. You can see a similar level of droop.

Thank you Matt.  Yours are bigger, but mine definitely resembles yours more than some of the habitat photos I found of the real Caryota no.   It is what it is, but I'll still hold out hope for a little while longer.  I went to 100% certain it was Caryota no, to uncertain, to leaning toward Caryota urens in a span of less than 6 months.  As rapid as Caryotas grow at this stage, I'll probably get a good indication if it is C urens within another year.

I'll entertain other views either way.

[Tracy]

On 11/21/2017, 2:14:39, Matt in OC said:

 

It's a crappy picture, but here are mine, which I figure are Urens and a similar size to yours.

 

So while I have given up on the plant originally posted in this string being a Caryota no, I am trying again.  The original plant I definitely would say is Caryota urens.  I did just plant another young Caryota, which I bought as Caryota no.  I don't recall what the C. urens looked like at this stage, before going bi-pinnate, but I don't remember being impressed on the large single leaflets.  This does have large single leaflets still, so I have hope.  It's like starting the clock ticking again, with a reset.  I'm hopeful this will turn out to be the real thing:  Caryota no.

[Panamajack]

I've seen large Caryotas in Santa Monica, and there are a few giant ones here in Palos Verdes Estates, on the cliff, facing the Pacific. And they are huge.

Here are a few screenshots of the ones in Palos Verdes, they were taken about two years ago on Google Maps. They are bigger now. The one in the back looks smaller because it sits lower on the cliff, but it is just a large. 

Edited January 16, 2018 by Panamajack
added photos

[DoomsDave]

@Panamajack those look like big-ass gigas.

[Tracy]

1 hour ago, DoomsDave said:

@Panamajack those look like big-ass gigas.

You got it Dave.  I think I mentioned at the beginning of this thread that I intentionally didn't put the Caryota gigas in the new garden, even though its still my wife's favorite in the old garden.  I just didn't want to commit the space to it again.  I will be disappointed if this turns out to be another Caryota urens, but I won't know unless I try.  Right?  They grow so much faster in the ground than in pots and since I really "wanna know" or "want a no", planting was the fastest route to discovery.

[DoomsDave]

1 minute ago, Tracy said:

You got it Dave.  I think I mentioned at the beginning of this thread that I intentionally didn't put the Caryota gigas in the new garden, even though its still my wife's favorite in the old garden.  I just didn't want to commit the space to it again.  I will be disappointed if this turns out to be another Caryota urens, but I won't know unless I try.  Right?  They grow so much faster in the ground than in pots and since I really "wanna know" or "want a no", planting was the fastest route to discovery.

If your no grows, and it's a no, I'll suspect witchcraft or sorcery.

[Tracy]

1 minute ago, DoomsDave said:

If your no grows, and it's a no, I'll suspect witchcraft or sorcery.

"No" way... I would never do that.  Well if it doesn't make it, maybe that in itself would be an indication it's a C. no.  The bananas are out of this spot, so I'll get an opportunity to try something else if its a "no-go".

[DoomsDave]

16 minutes ago, Tracy said:

"No" way... I would never do that.  Well if it doesn't make it, maybe that in itself would be an indication it's a C. no.  The bananas are out of this spot, so I'll get an opportunity to try something else if its a "no-go".

If it's a no, and it grows, it will be a Pilgrimage Palm^TM!

It will also likely take the same amount of space as a Big Ass Gigas.

http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Caryota_no

[neoflora]

2 hours ago, Panamajack said:

I've seen large Caryotas in Santa Monica, and there are a few giant ones here in Palos Verdes Estates, on the cliff, facing the Pacific. And they are huge.

Here are a few screenshots of the ones in Palos Verdes, they were taken about two years ago on Google Maps. They are bigger now. The one in the back looks smaller because it sits lower on the cliff, but it is just a large. 

This is a project i did for friends of mine about 15 years ago! There are a number of rare palms we installed in this garden!

 

[Panamajack]

13 hours ago, neoflora said:

This is a project i did for friends of mine about 15 years ago! There are a number of rare palms we installed in this garden!

 

Wow, you did a fantastic job! I love driving by that house and seeing those beautiful palms on my way to/from home. Really nice job! They are all huge and very healthy.

[Tracy]

On 1/15/2018, 6:07:04, DoomsDave said:

If it's a no, and it grows, it will be a Pilgrimage Palm^TM!

Still can't tell anything about the new Caryota yet, as its not even bipinnate yet.  The other one I'm wondering if it's Caryota ochlandra, Caryota urens or even Caryota maxima.  Leaf tips are droopy, but that seems to be the case with all three mentioned.  Compared to the massive girth of my Caryota gigas's trunk this is relatively narrow for its height.  This does have a little fuzz on the ringed trunk, which rubs off with time or too much blasting with the hose (which happens when watering my orchids hanging from it at times).  What they yee:  ochlandra, urens or maxima???

[Josue Diaz]

8 minutes ago, Tracy said:

Still can't tell anything about the new Caryota yet, as its not even bipinnate yet.  The other one I'm wondering if it's Caryota ochlandra, Caryota urens or even Caryota maxima.  Leaf tips are droopy, but that seems to be the case with all three mentioned.  Compared to the massive girth of my Caryota gigas's trunk this is relatively narrow for its height.  This does have a little fuzz on the ringed trunk, which rubs off with time or too much blasting with the hose (which happens when watering my orchids hanging from it at times).  What they yee:  ochlandra, urens or maxima???

Caryota leucadiana var spectacularis. No doubt.