Livistona mariae/decipiens F2 Hybrid Cold Hardy Palm

[_Keith]

So, the question with no known answer is where to plant this palm on my property, and that depends on cold and heat tolerance.   Anyone want to weigh in on what you think this palm needs to flourish in both cold and heat tolerance.

Those bronze juvenile colors are beautiful.   Such a shame it will not keep them.

[Sandy Loam]

Sorry, Keith.  I don't know enough about Livistona Mariae to say, but my hunch is that it will be a typical livistona (growing well in both heat and cold).  Both parents are quite cold-tolerant. If you're in USDA zone 9a, to the best of my knowledge you should be fine wherever you choose to plant it. 

I did want to comment, though, that this could be one very fast-growing tree.  Livistona Decora is reputed to be a fast-grower (and mine is), but the hybrid element could give this one even additional speed although I know nothing about L. Mariae's growth rate.

Interesting hybrid.  Wherever did you find it?  

 

[Danilopez89]

Doesn't L rigida have those colors as young palms.

[Phoenikakias]

F2 means that seed comes from a hybrid mother tree itself? If so, though I am not a genetist, wouldn't this mean that from the total offspring of the mother plant 25% would be identical to one grand parent, 25% would be identical to other grand parent and only 50% would be hybrid?

[tropicbreeze]

Probably a bit difficult to say at this early stage but it does seem to have more of the mariae in it.

[Ben1]

13 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

F2 means that seed comes from a hybrid mother tree itself? If so, though I am not a genetist, wouldn't this mean that from the total offspring of the mother plant 25% would be identical to one grand parent, 25% would be identical to other grand parent and only 50% would be hybrid?

Yes, this is exactly the statement of the Mendel's laws if the inheritance was intermediate. 

[Albey]

On 10/02/2016 12:49:01, _Keith said:

Anyone want to weigh in on what you think this palm needs to flourish in both cold and heat tolerance.

Yes:   "My Garden"

Lovely Palm Keith - love those brown hues.

[Phoenikakias]

Mariae needs a lot of heat for a decent growth rate. 

[NorthFlpalmguy]

Keith, these have been one of the fastest growing Livistonas I've ever grown from seed. They are so nice I plan on keeping a dozen or more and possibly putting them in my yard and hopefully have a constant seed source. Mine have taken low 20s already with heavy frost and aren't showing any damage.

[Sandy Loam]

Wow, that says a lot because it can get COLD in Perry, FL.  

North FL Palm Guy, how long have you had yours in the ground?  It is planted in a totally exposed area?  Where did you buy yours?  I am seriously thinking about buying one.

Is your mature enough to be worth a photo, giving us an idea of what this hybrid will look like when mature?

Thanks.  

 

 

[_Keith]

5 hours ago, NorthFlpalmguy said:

Keith, these have been one of the fastest growing Livistonas I've ever grown from seed. They are so nice I plan on keeping a dozen or more and possibly putting them in my yard and hopefully have a constant seed source. Mine have taken low 20s already with heavy frost and aren't showing any damage.

Now that is encouraging news.

[Sandy Loam]

Keith, tempted by your post, I just bought one of these hybrids on ebay from a reputable Palm Society member/vendor.  

[NorthFlpalmguy]

22 hours ago, Sandy Loam said:

Wow, that says a lot because it can get COLD in Perry, FL.  

North FL Palm Guy, how long have you had yours in the ground?  It is planted in a totally exposed area?  Where did you buy yours?  I am seriously thinking about buying one.

Is your mature enough to be worth a photo, giving us an idea of what this hybrid will look like when mature?

Thanks.  

 

 

I don't have any in the ground yet.This is the first year I have had any and started them from seed that I bought from NatureGirl. I think she posted a photo of the mother palm in the classifieds section here.

[redbeard917]

On 2/10/2016, 2:18:48, Phoenikakias said:

F2 means that seed comes from a hybrid mother tree itself? If so, though I am not a genetist, wouldn't this mean that from the total offspring of the mother plant 25% would be identical to one grand parent, 25% would be identical to other grand parent and only 50% would be hybrid?

Yes, if you're only looking at a single trait. The more different traits there are in the parent plants, the more you'd expect to see a wide range of phenotypes in the offspring. For example, look at the variety of different forms of Washingtonia filabusta. This image shows all the possible offspring (in a 9:3:3:1 ratio) of a dihybrid cross where only two traits are considered.

[NatureGirl]

Here's some pics for your viewing pleasure...

The first two are the L. mariae X L decipiens

Third one is my L. mariae? or I think it's L. ridgida

Last one is my L. chinensis X L. decipiens

[Sandy Loam]

Wow, nice! How long ago were they planted as small palms,  Nature Girl? Mariae has a reputation for growing extremely tall whereas Decora/Decipiens has a reputation for growing extremely quickly, but not necessarily to the tallest heights. That Mariae/Decora hybrid appears to be quite tall, but it is hard to tell for sure in a photo.

[kirkhutch]

Can anyone comment on how this hybrid is performing now?

[Sandy Loam]

  Mine has only been planted in the ground since March, so it is still quite juvenile. I really have nothing to report.

It still displays a lot of red typical of a young Livistona Mariae. The originator of the seed explained to me that she could not be sure that it was indeed a hybrid.  The person who provided her the original seed/trees years ago suspected that it was an accidental hybrid between Livistona Decora (Decipiens), due to its traits, but could not be sure.  It might just be a normal Livistona Mariae.  What complicates it is that Livistona Mariae also has a "ribbony" look like Livistona Decora (Decipiens), but not as much.

 

Edited August 29, 2016 by Sandy Loam

[NatureGirl]

The original palm IS a hybrid. L. mariae X L. decipiens. The offspring will be (F2) hybrids. Meaning they can look like one parent or the other or anywhere in between.

The only thing is question is whether the original palm is really  L. mariae or L. rigida . After seeing L. mariae and L. rigida in a friends garden last year, I'm beginning to think a lot of palms labeled as L. mariae are actually L. rigida, including the L. mariae in my own backyard. 

. 

[NatureGirl]

BTW, just to be clear, the Hybrid Palm is NOT in my yard, but in a  friends yard up the street. I have a palm (received) as L. mariae, and I also have the L. chinensis X L. decipiens in my yard.

[NatureGirl]

Here's what I do:

I sprout about 25-30 seeds. Then I pick 10 -12 of the reddest colored seedlings and grow them on. 

[_Keith]

Mine was mowed over accidentally, but has returned. It is a tough bugger. 

[_Keith]

Cold hardy report on this palm not good.   Most of my Livies had no issue with two nights at 24 and then 25 with 12+ hours below freezing on each.  This one of the other hand was a total fry.   I doubt very seriously if it will live at all.

 

[Ben in Norcal]

15 hours ago, _Keith said:

Cold hardy report on this palm not good.   Most of my Livies had no issue with two nights at 24 and then 25 with 12+ hours below freezing on each.  This one of the other hand was a total fry.   I doubt very seriously if it will live at all.

 

It's just looks red to me, Keith! 

That's gonna buff right out, no problem...

[Sandy Loam]

Mine continues to grow and to show plenty of red, like a livstona mariae or a livstona rigida.  Does anyone have any newer reports of how this hybrid performed over winter in a marginal location?  Mine had no winter cold damage at all and is planted right out in the open with zero protection, and in full sun.

[Alberto]

On 10/02/2016 05:18:48, Phoenikakias said:

F2 means that seed comes from a hybrid mother tree itself? If so, though I am not a genetist, wouldn't this mean that from the total offspring of the mother plant 25% would be identical to one grand parent, 25% would be identical to other grand parent and only 50% would be hybrid?

Livistonas being diouecious palms need a male palm to fertilize the female flowers . So , which palm was the pollen donnor for the F1 hybrid to produce this F2?  Was it backcrossed with another hybrid male palm  ?

[Phoenikakias]

Hmmm, not entirely so. I mean that dioecism is not yet perfect in evolutionary terms. I mean that a male Livistona can not produce offspring but a female one occasionally it does without the help of a male specimen, albeit not prolifically. 

[Sandy Loam]

Mine took our coldest temperatures this year with no damage at all.  January was the coldest winter in eight years, but this hybrid palm did not seem to care.  It has grown a fair bit too.

[Sandy Loam]

Here is a photo of my livistona decora/mariae hybrid 2.5 years after being planted as a tiny strap selling.  The can of Coca-Cola shows you how much it has grown in so little time.

It really has hybrid features.  It is not nearly as "ribbony" as livistona decora, but the leaves are more divided than a regular livistona mariae.

I will post of a photo of my pure livistona mariae momentarily for comparison.

[Sandy Loam]

For comparison, attached is a photo of my pure livistona mariae.  Note the different leaf colour, less rigidity in the leaves, even a less "ribbony" appearance than the hybrid, and so on. This photo also has a can of Coca-Cola in it to show the size of the palm.

[Sandy Loam]

Sorry, the can of Coke didn't show up in that photo above (for scale). It is now visible in the photo below, although has fallen over.  This is the pure livistona mariae once again.

[howfam]

On 8/5/2017 at 9:56 AM, Phoenikakias said:

Hmmm, not entirely so. I mean that dioecism is not yet perfect in evolutionary terms. I mean that a male Livistona can not produce offspring but a female one occasionally it does without the help of a male specimen, albeit not prolifically. 

Check out Palmpedia website and it shows that both L. chinensis and L. saribus are hermaphroditic, having both male and female flowers on a single plant, therefore able to produce seed on their own. I've sprouted many seeds from single saribus not far from my house.