S. FL palms in habitat and around family home

[Jimbean]

I came to the same conclusions by estimation. 

[Yunder Wækraus]

On 1/2/2016, 10:34:14, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Unfortunately, that's way our of my price range, as I am unemployed and broke and just hoping to hold onto the little house my wife and I have here in Corpus Christi.  There is property in Cameron County, where Brownsville is for more acreage and significantly less price.  For instance, in Bayview, a very small rural community about 15 miles ENE of Brownsville, there is a 4.12 acre tract for $45,000.  It is a safe upper middle class area of the Valley and has a very similar climate to what the Pahokee and South Bay area have (but with less rainfall), and it has the rich delta soil of the Lower Rio Grande River, since there are many resacas (old river channels with water in them).  It has native subtropical forest on it and a small pond.  If I could buy it, I would have a home on 1 acre, clear an acre for a small organic palm and tropical plant nursery, and preserve the other two acres as native habitat for wildlife like the native Mexican Red Crowned Parrot, Green Parakeet, Green Jay, the ocelot, and jaguarundi (The Lower Rio Grande Valley has many native tropical birds, including some really beautiful ones, as well as two species- very rare now, of tropical cats).

I forgot to say that your vision for such a property is exactly the same as my dream, though I'm still dreaming (big emphasis on the dream part) of 10+ acres with pond or river frontage in a solid zone 9a or better. I'd add an shooting/archery range (10-100 yard sight-ins, etc.), and I'd like to keep some domestic animals (perhaps a few head of cattle like my cousins used to do). I have dreamt this dream while looking at S. TX properties on a many a night, and I especially love the areas in S. TX where big game animals (e.g. blue buck) run free and can be hunted. 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Alex,

The furthest south a freeze has ever been recorded was at Tampico, just south of the Tropic of Cancer.  I forget what year that was but it only got down to 31F, but still shocking to get that cold that far south.  Tampico is about 90 miles south of the Tropic of Cancer.  I don't think Veracruz, which is considerably further south (about 230 to 240 miles further southeast along the Gulf Coast in the southern Bay of Campeche) has ever recorded any temps lower than probably 42F or 43F, and that would only be a once in 500 year incident I am sure, since Veracruz is about 300 miles south of the Tropic of Cancer. My wife is from the foothills of the mountain range in Central Mexico about 100 miles west southwest of Tampico, well inland from the coast, and she said they only had frost one time that she ever knows of, and that there are huge mango trees, avocadoes, and massive royal poincianas there where she lives.  Also, two of her brothers have said there are really big mature coconut palms full of coconuts in that area too, but they are not planted as much that far inland like they are on the coast.  There is a huge Mexican Tall coconut palm in Ciudad Victoria considerably further north of where her family lives and about 80+ miles inland from the coast that survived the 1989 freeze. When the really bad and thankfully rare hard freezes hit the Rio Grande Valley, the Arctic fronts really moderate and start to fall apart within about a 100 miles south of Brownsville.

By the way, if you are interested in the big game areas of South Texas, King Ranch is only about 40 miles southwest of where I live.  They are in a solidly 9B area with the 10A zone along the eastern coastal boundary of the ranch.  On my last trip to the Valley the Sunday before Christmas, while going through the King Ranch South of Sarita on Hwy. 77, I saw a Mexican Eagle, the tropical eagle along the side of the highway.  I think in Spanish they are called the Caracara.  It is the second or third one I have seen.  By the way, speaking of tropical birds, there is a breeding colony of the Green Parakeets native to the Valley and Tamaulipas, Mexico living on the west side of Corpus Christi in some old Canary Island Date Palms.  They are actually about the size of conures and considerably larger than the budgie parakeets sold in pet shops.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Needless to say, we have some really neat things here in South Texas, especially in the Rio Grande Valley.  For those who like scuba diving and snorkeling, we even have French Angelfish and Spotfin Butterflyfish on our jetties here in the summer along with Cocoa Damsels, Dusky Damsels, and thousands of Sergeant Majors.  We even have some gorgonian corals growing on the rocks in the channel about 6 to 8 ft. deep, 2/3 of the way down the jetty.  And we have Snook and Tarpon here too, and the occasional grouper on our jetties.

[Zeeth]

14 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Alex,

The furthest south a freeze has ever been recorded was at Tampico, just south of the Tropic of Cancer.  I forget what year that was but it only got down to 31F, but still shocking to get that cold that far south.  Tampico is about 90 miles south of the Tropic of Cancer.  I don't think Veracruz, which is considerably further south (about 230 to 240 miles further southeast along the Gulf Coast in the southern Bay of Campeche) has ever recorded any temps lower than probably 42F or 43F, and that would only be a once in 500 year incident I am sure, since Veracruz is about 300 miles south of the Tropic of Cancer. My wife is from the foothills of the mountain range in Central Mexico about 100 miles west southwest of Tampico, well inland from the coast, and she said they only had frost one time that she ever knows of, and that there are huge mango trees, avocadoes, and massive royal poincianas there where she lives.  Also, two of her brothers have said there are really big mature coconut palms full of coconuts in that area too, but they are not planted as much that far inland like they are on the coast.  There is a huge Mexican Tall coconut palm in Ciudad Victoria considerably further north of where her family lives and about 80+ miles inland from the coast that survived the 1989 freeze. When the really bad and thankfully rare hard freezes hit the Rio Grande Valley, the Arctic fronts really moderate and start to fall apart within about a 100 miles south of Brownsville.

By the way, if you are interested in the big game areas of South Texas, King Ranch is only about 40 miles southwest of where I live.  They are in a solidly 9B area with the 10A zone along the eastern coastal boundary of the ranch.  On my last trip to the Valley the Sunday before Christmas, while going through the King Ranch South of Sarita on Hwy. 77, I saw a Mexican Eagle, the tropical eagle along the side of the highway.  I think in Spanish they are called the Caracara.  It is the second or third one I have seen.  By the way, speaking of tropical birds, there is a breeding colony of the Green Parakeets native to the Valley and Tamaulipas, Mexico living on the west side of Corpus Christi in some old Canary Island Date Palms.  They are actually about the size of conures and considerably larger than the budgie parakeets sold in pet shops.

Looks like Veracruz has recorded as low as 32.4˚, just shy of freezing. 

Green parrots are pretty common in the area around Sarasota and Bradenton. There's a big colony of Nanday conures living wild in the bird preserve adjacent to where my garden is (flocks of 50+ parrots fly overhead sometimes), and I've seen a lot of Quaker conures in the neighborhoods around the Sarasota airport. These areas got down to 27-28˚ in 2010, so they can apparently stand some cold. They're one of my favorite things to see, as they make it seem so tropical. I got photos of a group of them eating from my loquat tree not long ago.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Wow,

I am shocked that it could have gotten that cold that far south.  It seems impossible to me even along a tropical continental landmass to get that cold that far south of the Tropic of Cancer.  I read somewhere years ago, that Tampico's all time record low is 31F, so I don't see how it could get one degree colder than that about 230+ miles southeast along the coast.  I really question whether there thermometers were functioning properly when they took that reading.  We had a nearby city just north of us the other day that was having problems with their thermometer, and our local weather man said there reading was just too off in comparison to the other nearby readings. Brownsville's all time record low is 12F, and I think it occurred in 1899 or 1895, so I don't see how an area that is about 450+ miles to the south of there could have an all time record low that is only 20F warmer.  It should have an all time record that is at least 30+F warmer than Brownsville's all time record.

Anyway, those parrots you have near your house are neat looking, but all the parrots in Florida are non native.  I wonder why there are no native parrots there with native Central American and Caribbean parrots less than 100 miles from Florida territory in the Bahamas and in Havana, Cuba.  While we may have a few non natives in South Texas, most of our parrots are native (the Mexican Red Crowned Parrot and the Green Parakeet; and I believe the Yellow Parakeet used to be native to the RGV too until it was hunted to extinction).

[Zeeth]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Wow,

I am shocked that it could have gotten that cold that far south.  It seems impossible to me even along a tropical continental landmass to get that cold that far south of the Tropic of Cancer.  I read somewhere years ago, that Tampico's all time record low is 31F, so I don't see how it could get one degree colder than that about 230+ miles southeast along the coast.  I really question whether there thermometers were functioning properly when they took that reading.  We had a nearby city just north of us the other day that was having problems with their thermometer, and our local weather man said there reading was just too off in comparison to the other nearby readings. Brownsville's all time record low is 12F, and I think it occurred in 1899 or 1895, so I don't see how an area that is about 450+ miles to the south of there could have an all time record low that is only 20F warmer.  It should have an all time record that is at least 30+F warmer than Brownsville's all time record.

Anyway, those parrots you have near your house are neat looking, but all the parrots in Florida are non native.  I wonder why there are no native parrots there with native Central American and Caribbean parrots less than 100 miles from Florida territory in the Bahamas and in Havana, Cuba.  While we may have a few non natives in South Texas, most of our parrots are native (the Mexican Red Crowned Parrot and the Green Parakeet; and I believe the Yellow Parakeet used to be native to the RGV too until it was hunted to extinction).

We used to have a native parakeet until people thought their feathers looked better on their hats than on the birds.

The Quaker conure is thought to be the closest living relative to the extinct Carolina Parakeet, and they're largely filling the niche left behind when the Carolina parakeet was eradicated. Admittedly though, the Jenday conure looks more similar, and it would be interesting if a de-extinction project was done using them as the base. 

 

I'm working on a chart for the minimum temperatures of Veracruz to see if the data is correct. I'll post my results when I'm done. 

[Zeeth]

I looked into the cold days that were reported in Veracruz, and here's what I found: 

The data comes from this page put out by the Mexican national water commission, found here: 

http://smn.cna.gob.mx/observatorios/historica/veracruz.pdf

It says the data is pulled from the dates 1981-2000. I pulled the data from the Veracruz airport from that time period and graphed it. Here's what that looks like: 

The coldest temperature that it showed during that time was 41˚ on two occasions, so it looks like something is off about the 32.4˚ figure. 

 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

I forgot about the Carolina Parakeet.  It is interesting too with the Flamingo.  I have read conflicting things.  Most sources say that the American Flamingo was never native in Florida, but that occasional straglers may have been found in South Florida in years past.  But one source, and I can't remember which one said that the American Flamingo used to be found as far north as Tampa Bay, and as I recall that source estimated the Florida Flamingo population to have been at 500,000 at one point.  I tend to agree with the latter, since coastal South Florida's mangrove's swamps are their typical habitat and most winters would be mild enough for them, especially in Monroe, Dade, Broward, Pam Beach, Collier, and Lee Counties.

I look forward to the chart when you have a chance to do it, because honestly it seems like it just wouldn't be possible to get that cold that far south within the tropics.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

I thought so, it's just too far south within the official tropics and a coastal city at that to have ever gotten that cold.  I honestly even question the all time record low that I read about in Tampico of 31F, since Tampico is about 90+ miles within the Tropic of Cancer and a coastal city too.  I would guess the actual all time record low for Tampico to be more like 38F or above.

[Zeeth]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I forgot about the Carolina Parakeet.  It is interesting too with the Flamingo.  I have read conflicting things.  Most sources say that the American Flamingo was never native in Florida, but that occasional straglers may have been found in South Florida in years past.  But one source, and I can't remember which one said that the American Flamingo used to be found as far north as Tampa Bay, and as I recall that source estimated the Florida Flamingo population to have been at 500,000 at one point.  I tend to agree with the latter, since coastal South Florida's mangrove's swamps are their typical habitat and most winters would be mild enough for them, especially in Monroe, Dade, Broward, Pam Beach, Collier, and Lee Counties.

I look forward to the chart when you have a chance to do it, because honestly it seems like it just wouldn't be possible to get that cold that far south within the tropics.

You might find this interesting:

https://www.audubon.org/news/wild-flamingos-return-florida

[Zeeth]

27 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I thought so, it's just too far south within the official tropics and a coastal city at that to have ever gotten that cold.  I honestly even question the all time record low that I read about in Tampico of 31F, since Tampico is about 90+ miles within the Tropic of Cancer and a coastal city too.  I would guess the actual all time record low for Tampico to be more like 38F or above.

I  checked the data for Tampico too and I saw a few days that got down/close to freezing, so that data point is definitely valid. Overall it seemed comparable to the lows experienced in Miami, which has a similar all time low. 

Here's the Tampico chart. 

 

I verify all of the abnormally cold temperatures before I include them by checking the day of the cold temperatures and making sure that the maximum and mean temperatures for that day fit with what you would expect.

 

This chart, with data that spans 20 years earlier than what the Tampico airport gives, says the all time low in Tampico is -1.5˚ C, or 29.3˚F. Unfortunately, I can't independently verify this, as I can't find a station with data earlier than 1975. 

http://smn.cna.gob.mx/climatologia/Normales5110/NORMAL28111.TXT

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

38 minutes ago, Zeeth said:

You might find this interesting:

https://www.audubon.org/news/wild-flamingos-return-florida

Interesting article.  Thanks.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

I still find it interesting that it could get that cold even at Tampico.  I could see it potentially happening rarely in inland areas, but that far within the Tropics at the coast, it just doesn't seem possible.  I wonder if there is any corresponding info for continental tropical coastal areas in places like China, Africa (the southern half), South America, and Australia.

[Zeeth]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I still find it interesting that it could get that cold even at Tampico.  I could see it potentially happening rarely in inland areas, but that far within the Tropics at the coast, it just doesn't seem possible.  I wonder if there is any corresponding info for continental tropical coastal areas in places like China, Africa (the southern half), South America, and Australia.

It got down to freezing in Hong Kong (80 miles south of the Tropic of Cancer) on January 18, 1893.

I think the southern hemisphere is relatively safe, as there's quite a bit of Ocean between Antarctica and the other continents. India is also safe because of the Himalayas protecting it from the Siberian fronts. 

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

Wow, that is cold for Hong Kong.  I think you are right about the Southern Hemisphere.  In reference to the Rio Grande Valley, I actually think the all time record low in Brownsville of 12F in the late 1890's was probably directly due to the massive clearing of the native Sabal Palm and subtropical forest all along the Rio Grande Valley that had been occurring for the agricultural interests.  Had at least 75% of the native forest been preserved, as opposed to only about 2% of it being left today, I honestly think the all time record low there would be about 16F or 17F, and in '83 and '89, I don't think Brownsville would have dipped below 20F.  I think massive areas of cleared land have lower dew points in the winter due to the drying effect that land clearing has (think of how the massive deforestation of the tropical rainforests has lead to record breaking droughts in places like Brazil), and thus lower low temps in the winter.  In the last decade or so, there has been a significant effort to reforest a corridor along the Rio Grande for many miles from the Mission area to Brownsville.  This along with some really luxurious tropical landscaping in many of the neighborhoods in the Valley, especially in the older established middle class and upper middle class neighborhoods in places like Brownsville, I think is starting to increase the moisture again in the Valley, especially the Lower Valley around Brownsville, and I think it is starting to bring back the rainfall there.  They have actually had a LOT of rain there over the last year.  When the old native Sabal Palm and subtropical forest was abundant along the river for about 80 miles inland from the delta, there was periodic flooding and even natural changing of the river course which is what lead to the formation of the oxbow lakes (resacas- the old river channels) that still exist to this day.  The periodic flooding that occurred on a fairly regular basis compared to the last 100 years, indicates to me that originally before the clear cutting of the forest that the average annual rainfall was significantly higher than what it has been in recent decades.  The annual average rainfall for Brownsville in recent decades has been about 26" per year, but about a 150 years ago, when the native forest was still in its pristine condition, the area probably had an annual average rainfall of about 31" to 35".

[Yunder Wækraus]

5 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Alex,

The furthest south a freeze has ever been recorded was at Tampico, just south of the Tropic of Cancer.  I forget what year that was but it only got down to 31F, but still shocking to get that cold that far south.  Tampico is about 90 miles south of the Tropic of Cancer.  I don't think Veracruz, which is considerably further south (about 230 to 240 miles further southeast along the Gulf Coast in the southern Bay of Campeche) has ever recorded any temps lower than probably 42F or 43F, and that would only be a once in 500 year incident I am sure, since Veracruz is about 300 miles south of the Tropic of Cancer. My wife is from the foothills of the mountain range in Central Mexico about 100 miles west southwest of Tampico, well inland from the coast, and she said they only had frost one time that she ever knows of, and that there are huge mango trees, avocadoes, and massive royal poincianas there where she lives.  Also, two of her brothers have said there are really big mature coconut palms full of coconuts in that area too, but they are not planted as much that far inland like they are on the coast.  There is a huge Mexican Tall coconut palm in Ciudad Victoria considerably further north of where her family lives and about 80+ miles inland from the coast that survived the 1989 freeze. When the really bad and thankfully rare hard freezes hit the Rio Grande Valley, the Arctic fronts really moderate and start to fall apart within about a 100 miles south of Brownsville.

By the way, if you are interested in the big game areas of South Texas, King Ranch is only about 40 miles southwest of where I live.  They are in a solidly 9B area with the 10A zone along the eastern coastal boundary of the ranch.  On my last trip to the Valley the Sunday before Christmas, while going through the King Ranch South of Sarita on Hwy. 77, I saw a Mexican Eagle, the tropical eagle along the side of the highway.  I think in Spanish they are called the Caracara.  It is the second or third one I have seen.  By the way, speaking of tropical birds, there is a breeding colony of the Green Parakeets native to the Valley and Tamaulipas, Mexico living on the west side of Corpus Christi in some old Canary Island Date Palms.  They are actually about the size of conures and considerably larger than the budgie parakeets sold in pet shops.

32 degrees was recorded on Christmas day in Pánuco, Veracruz State on Christmas day in 1983. No doubt freezes have hit even further south because of continental cold. http://smn.conagua.gob.mx/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=42&Itemid=75 (you have to select Veracruz, then Pánuco, then the daily minimum temps (MED-EXT-DIA) and search for the date 25/12/1983)

Regarding wildlife: Very cool! We saw six crested caracaras (a.k.a. Mexica eagles) north of Clewiston, Florida yesterday on the way home from my aunt's funeral. I've only ever seen two in Texas.

[Yunder Wækraus]

4 hours ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

I thought so, it's just too far south within the official tropics and a coastal city at that to have ever gotten that cold.  I honestly even question the all time record low that I read about in Tampico of 31F, since Tampico is about 90+ miles within the Tropic of Cancer and a coastal city too.  I would guess the actual all time record low for Tampico to be more like 38F or above.

I should have been more clear above: I was referring to the state of Veracruz, not Heroica Veracruz (the city well south of the state's northern border).

[hbernstein]

Regarding Paurotis palms: I think that they have a high magnesium requirement. Muck soils are rich and organic, but have their own chemical deficiencies. They might be great for Paurotis, though.

[hbernstein]

2 hours ago, hbernstein said:

Regarding Paurotis palms: I think that they have a high magnesium requirement. Muck soils are rich and organic, but have their own chemical deficiencies. They might be great for Paurotis, though.

Manganese, I meant Manganese.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

20 hours ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

I should have been more clear above: I was referring to the state of Veracruz, not Heroica Veracruz (the city well south of the state's northern border).

Panuco appears to be at the far northern part of the state and about 30 miles inland from the Gulf, so I could see it potentially getting down to freezing there during a horrible arctic front like in '83 or '89, but not at a location right on the Gulf that far south.

Sorry to hear about your aunt's passing away.  It is really neat though that you have caracaras in Florida.  I didn't know they lived there.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

7 hours ago, hbernstein said:

Manganese, I meant Manganese.

So they can suffer from Manganese deficiency and frizzle top, just like Queen Palms.

[Yunder Wækraus]

20 minutes ago, Mr. Coconut Palm said:

Panuco appears to be at the far northern part of the state and about 30 miles inland from the Gulf, so I could see it potentially getting down to freezing there during a horrible arctic front like in '83 or '89, but not at a location right on the Gulf that far south.

Sorry to hear about your aunt's passing away.  It is really neat though that you have caracaras in Florida.  I didn't know they lived there.

It's still crazy that it gets that cold well into the tropics and not too far from the coast (in the grand scheme of things). Compare that to Key West, which is about 200 miles north (I think) and has never dropped below 40 since records began.

Regarding the crested caracaras of FL: they are a relictual population stranded since the ice age. They are only found in Central FL, and I've only seen them between Clewiston and south of Bartow.

[Mr. Coconut Palm]

6 minutes ago, Yunder Wækraus said:

It's still crazy that it gets that cold well into the tropics and not too far from the coast (in the grand scheme of things). Compare that to Key West, which is about 200 miles north (I think) and has never dropped below 40 since records began.

Regarding the crested caracaras of FL: they are a relictual population stranded since the ice age. They are only found in Central FL, and I've only seen them between Clewiston and south of Bartow.

The Keys sure have a mild winter climate with all the water around them.  I wonder what the all time record low is in the Dry Tortugas?

That's interesting about the caracaras in FL.  I hope they have a healthy breeding population there.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

On January 1, 2016 at 11:01:40 AM, Jimbean said:

Again, I believe that is a result of its slow growth and possible soil requirements. 

I wish I had the means of testing my hypotheses.

I had both Everglades palms and Leucothrinax in Jacksonville.  Both endured mid 20's every winter without complaint.  At 20-22, I covered the Leucothrinax but the Everglades was on its own.  I lost lots of old fronds, and the spears fell over but none of the trunks died.  They just pushed out the burnt leaves and kept on growing.  Both have been in the ground for about 10 years.  I've sold the house in April so no more updates.  Here in winter haven I also have both species.  I don't expect any problems as most winters stay above 25f.  Our all time record lows are about 20 whereas Jax is about 10f.  

[richtrav]

We have these nasty things in Harlingen

As for record cold, I've never heard of anything that extreme for Veracruz, though an old Mexican Meteorology book from the 1920s and 1930s has record lows of 21F for Soto La Marina and 27F for Tampico (the same record as Miami set in 1917). The airport east of Cd. Victoria dropped to 23F in 1983 and 1989 - I was in Tamaulipas in the summer of 1990 and branch damage was evident in the jacaranda trees and you didn't see many royals in town though old ones to the north at Santa Engracia and Padilla barely survived. Damage to vegetation around San Fernando was nearly as severe as it was in Brownsville or McAllen, the first place you saw any real signs of improvement was around the 24th parallel in the Jimenez area, and even there it still surely dropped into the low 20s. Ficus cotinifolia in that area were killed back to the ground except for one very massive tree which froze to the very large trunk at the base. An old kind of plantation house about 25 miles north of Aldama inside the tropic in rolling live oak country had been planted with a large number of royal palms; a decent minority survived and by the 2000s seemed to be naturalizing around a seep across the road from the old house. A number of Texas ebonies had dead tops in the area, they should be able to take the cold IF they're hardened. NE of Cd. Victoria there were some large surviving Roystonea and Araucaria heterophylla. NW of Victoria extensive damage to trees such as eucalyptus was seen when you got to around Hidalgo. 

There was also massive evidence of damage to Ficus and other tender tropicals SE of Soto on the road to the beach town of Tepeguaje (no surviving coconuts were noted either there or in La Pesca). It's very possible the damage to the Ficus was caused at least as much by the removal of the forest surrounding them as the actual minimum - it got impressively cold out in the open, where relatively hardy trees like Ehretia tinifolia showed some top damage as late as 1994. 

The survival line for coconuts on the immediate Gulf was somewhere between there and Barra del Tordo, where both they and the mangroves survived. This is the area where the Ridley sea turtles lay their eggs. By the time you get to Barra it's definitely tropical, there are numerous Acrocomia mexicana, Zamia loddigesii and a wonderful isolated occurrence of Sabal mauritiiformis which has been since walled off in a private community. Between there and Tampico there are what look like naturalized coconuts growing around large sand dunes. This is a very humid area with lots of tropical trees in (the few remaining) uncleared areas and interesting epiphytes such as Tillandsia ionantha et al, Brassovola nodosa and Aechmea bracteata in larger trees. The Brassovola get particularly impressive on favorable trees. On the western side of the state, right before you get into the foothills of the Sierra Madre, coconuts survived as far north as Llera. There is an asterisk to these "hardiness lines" as there were a few coconuts in the town of Jimenez which would have been large trees in 1989. I suspect some sort of protective measures were used for these trees (smudge pots, fires, some wrapping) as other tropicals in town were severely killed back. Royals, for instance, were not seen there in 1990 (though a number survived in South Texas by wrapping with insulation in the freeze). I have not seen those coconuts in about 10 years and they could be gone, the trunk on the largest tree was showing cold damage. 

I can certainly see temperatures dropping to the freezing point west and southwest of Tampico, but I don't believe it has frozen at Ciudad de Valles. West in the mountains yes, I believe the Crazy Englishman lost documentaries imply he lost his entire orchid collection to a snow and freeze at Xilitla. This would have been around the time of the '62 freeze. 

As far as Brownsville dropping to 12F, it's a bit remarkable but that IS the number on record for Ft Brown. I've never seen the entry logs for the fort at the time if still in existence, which could clear up some doubts (those daily record sheets were invaluable in determining the climate in the second part of the 19th century down here). That reading appeared as early as the February 1899 Monthly Weather Summary published by the NWS and had been taken as truth even since. If you're a conspiratorial type are a few indications it may have been fudged slightly or misread. For one, there was no NWS office in Brownsville, the nearest was in Corpus, so they relied on a max-min thermometer at the Fort and it was already 18F by the time the thermometer was reset for the next day, usually around daybreak. If 12F did occur it probably occurred earlier in the night under completely ideal radiational conditions. Ft Ringgold out west recorded 7F that same night so it's not impossible. One problem though is that a weather observer in Port Isabel made a thrice-daily reading on their record and they never recorded anything lower than 20F and recorded 30F on the same morning it supposedly went to 12F. Another issue is that most towns in Texas, particularly Corpus, were quite a bit colder on the first night than the second, when Ft Brown registered 16F (this is sort of backed up by an 18F reading that night in Edinburg, which were coincidentally the exact same minima recorded on the first night of the 1989 freeze in Brownsville and McAllen respectively). There also might have been some issues with the NWS cooking the books or "cheating" in an unintentional way. In a previous freeze in 1880-81 the NWS listed minima as several degrees lower than the readings from Ft Brown. The NWS may have been engaging in some type of "correction" of the military's data or they could have had their own thermometer there (and apparently the NWS used to place thermometers back then in strange places, such as on high antennas on rooftops. Unfortunately the NCDC doesn't seem to have the log for Feb 1899 and I can't find a newspaper to back up the claim (as opposed to, say ,the numerous accounts in the Dallas paper that had most town thermometers recording -10F in the same freeze). But I suppose it's possible, after all a place at the bottom of the FL peninsula reported 13F not that long ago.

Interestingly the Pacific coast of Australia has recorded some surprisingly low readings considering their low elevation. Rockhampton's minimum is 30F and it's on the Tropic, Mackay has seen 31F and Townsville, inside the 20th parallel, recorded 34F in 1941. Location of the weather station has a lot to do with that.

But then cold in Australia is a very different beast than cold in eastern North America. 

Edited May 29, 2016 by richtrav

[cfkingfish]

Those are some excellent pictures of an area that is not normally covered in pictures here, or seen by most Floridians. I have made so many drives through the many routes from the West to the East Coast, and 27 is probably my favorite. Clewiston, Belle Glade and South Bay have some interesting microclimates that let many tropicals thrive due to the Lake being there. Go just 10 miles West, SW, or North of the lake and it becomes very chilly - some of the coldest readings in peninsular Florida are NW of the lake near Lake Placid. 

Another great drive to see palms in habitat is route 29 from I-75 to 41 (basically Immokalee to Copeland). You will see Royals, a few Paurotis, and even some rogue Coconuts. I will try to get up a video of the area next time I go down that road.