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Most common mistakes in seed germination


Phoenikakias

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I believe that many palm seed growers don’t consider the natural environment of their palms, e.g. a Lytocaryum weddellianum is growing in a constant moist tropical rain forest, but a Butia archeri in tropical highland prairies with regular bush fires. So we have seeds which germinate instantly — as e.g. Satakentia, Licuala grandis, or Lytocaryum insigne — and others which wait for the first bush fire or freeze until they decide to germinate — as Livistona humilis resp. Sabal minor.

Typical beginners’ mistakes may be problems with watering or moisture and temps, soil mostly too wet or too mouldy, or something similar …

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My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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maybe there is one step in front.

Were came your seeds from? What time off the year is harvest time?

Can be realy important to know for good germination rates.

Shoot me if I am wrong but their are suppliers with stock for over more then one year and ofcourse this is not always a problem but can be. With seeds from friends or harvest yourself it can be much more easier to start.

Not saying that all suppliers mess up. They are also depending on their own deliveries.

So if possible, try to find out with what your are starting.

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FRESH RIPE SEEDS!

One problem I encountered when I was germinating a lot of palm seeds was fungus.  I always soaked my seeds in a 10% / 10:1 bleach solution for 24 hours.  That usually took care of it.  When germinating in baggies on top of my water heater I REALLY MADE SURE I soaked them as described.

Dana Point Tropicals - C-27 License #906810

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my mistake was using the same pots for different seeds regardless of they need after germination, for example I  used very small pots for "CIDP" and I had to change the pot and one didn't survive...

That should be only one of my mistakes as so far I had luck in germination of CIDP , PHOENIX ROEBELENII and Phoenix dactylifera...but waiting for many others ...

Edited by Mohsen
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10 hours ago, Mohsen said:

my mistake was using the same pots for different seeds regardless of they need after germination, for example I  used very small pots for "CIDP" and I had to change the pot and one didn't survive...

That should be only one of my mistakes as so far I had luck in germination of CIDP , PHOENIX ROEBELENII and Phoenix dactylifera...but waiting for many others ...

That is a point I forgot to mention: You have to consider if the palm has (nearly) adjacent or remote germination. In case of remote germination you may need adequately deep containers. In any case the cotyledonary sheath (i.e. the part which produces the seed-leaf) must grow straight. – In that concrete case with Phoenix canariensis seeds only seed #2 (maybe also #1?) was growing a straight sheath in contrast to #3 (photo by Mohsen):

564881ea9ce96_PhoenixcanariensisIMG_2798

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My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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3 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Pal trust me; plumule is going to appear quite below surface, even third germinated seed is ok^_^

Yes, I know, in case of strong palms like Phoenix dactylifera and similar ones, they come out everywhere. – But if you have a little more sensitive palms the first leaves will look awfully bent, or they won’t grow to the surface at all …

My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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I learned that heat gets things going faster and better for most species. I put my zip bags in warm sunshine on hot concrete and they germinate quickly with a high success rate . 

Los Angeles, CA and Myrtle Beach, SC.

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1 minute ago, Brad Mondel said:

I learned that heat gets things going faster and better for most species. I put my zip bags in warm sunshine on hot concrete and they germinate quickly with a high success rate . 

Have you also tried Archontophoenix seeds this way? Whole batch of such seeds rotted readily in the zip bag inside my cold frame during last summer.

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I've made them all:

Too cool for too long, likely the biggest problem.

Rotting in baggies. (Expletive to my own expletive self!)

Not being patient with some kinds with long germ timetables.

Forgetting about them, then tossing them into the compost pile where they pop right up!

Fungus on seed coat isn't usually a problem; the fungus that causes damping off is. They're different.

I'm getting better.

Gonna order some seeds from Rare Palm Seeds.

 

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Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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Buy "hard to germinate " seeds when one have 90+ years old, :o:P

Edited by foxtail
Just kidding! !!
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On 11/14/2015, 5:29:13, el-blanco said:

FRESH RIPE SEEDS!

One problem I encountered when I was germinating a lot of palm seeds was fungus.  I always soaked my seeds in a 10% / 10:1 bleach solution for 24 hours.  That usually took care of it.  When germinating in baggies on top of my water heater I REALLY MADE SURE I soaked them as described.

excellent process!! I also soak mine in a bleach solution. I almost never have fungus issues after I do this trick.

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Carlsbad, California Zone 10 B on the hill (402 ft. elevation)

Sunset zone 24

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I have never been a big fan of the "baggy method" It makes sense for small quantity germination but on a larger scale I prefer community pots on bottom heat for best results.

I have had way to much trouble with fungus issues in zip lock bags.

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Carlsbad, California Zone 10 B on the hill (402 ft. elevation)

Sunset zone 24

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1 hour ago, Josh-O said:

excellent process!! I also soak mine in a bleach solution. I almost never have fungus issues after I do this trick.

I soak seeds occasionally in  peroxide, but protection inside a bag last only for a short time.

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I was browsing in Ebay and it seems there are some heating germination trays ... not particularity for Palm seeds but I thought those might be useful for my germination, have you used anything like that? are they effective? some I found on eBay :

 

$_122.JPG

$_12.JPG

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9 hours ago, Mohsen said:

I was browsing in Ebay and it seems there are some heating germination trays ... not particularity for Palm seeds but I thought those might be useful for my germination, have you used anything like that? are they effective? some I found on eBay :

 

$_122.JPG

$_12.JPG

As a rule, these have always seemed to me to be too shallow for a deep rooting palm... additionally, the chance for fungus in such a close environment seems awfully high as well. But of course, I could be wrong........

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John Case

Brentwood CA

Owner and curator of Hana Keu Garden

USDA Zone 9b more or less, Sunset Zone 14 in winter 9 in summer

"Its always exciting the first time you save the world. Its a real thrill!"

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11 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

I soak seeds occasionally in  peroxide, but protection inside a bag last only for a short time.

exactly, when you germinate in a community pot you can drench with fungicides at will :) 

Carlsbad, California Zone 10 B on the hill (402 ft. elevation)

Sunset zone 24

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Deep soil for germing is also a good idea.

Some palmlings send a thick (and brittle) root straight down a long distance, especially Braheas, Dypsis plumosa and others adapted to tough conditions. If you plant them in too-shallow soil, the roots tend to "hit bottom" and tangle up, which makes it almost impossible to avoid fatally breaking at least some. (I murdered a whole pot of B. armata that way! :( )

I usually use soil at least 4" (13 cm) deep; more like 6" for deep rooted species like Brahea (which I'm about to get an avalanche of). I understand 12" (30 cm) is advised for Bizzies and Borassus.

Some palms hate being moved so much it's supposed to be best to germ them in the pot you want them to grow in, like Parajubes, Borassus and Bizzies.

How about that?

 

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Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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11 hours ago, Mohsen said:

I was browsing in Ebay and it seems there are some heating germination trays ... not particularity for Palm seeds but I thought those might be useful for my germination, have you used anything like that? are they effective? some I found on eBay :

 

$_122.JPG

$_12.JPG

You can get tree pot liners separate as well that work better for bizzies and deeper rooting palms that work with the tray and heat mat. I have used these for germinating and they work fine especially when you need bottom heat and humidity in the winter. I use cattle mineral drums (35 gal plastic drums) cut down to 9-10 inches tall for germinating larger batches of seed in the summer, along with kid's plastic pools. The baggy method works great as well for species not susceptible to mold. The best experience to germinating seed is using fresh seed in many cases but listening to other's experience on here and from growers is probably the best advice. Build your confidence in trying phoenix and washy species and work your way up.

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2 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

Deep soil for germing is also a good idea.

Some palmlings send a thick (and brittle) root straight down a long distance, especially Braheas, Dypsis plumosa and others adapted to tough conditions. If you plant them in too-shallow soil, the roots tend to "hit bottom" and tangle up, which makes it almost impossible to avoid fatally breaking at least some. (I murdered a whole pot of B. armata that way! :( )

I usually use soil at least 4" (13 cm) deep; more like 6" for deep rooted species like Brahea (which I'm about to get an avalanche of). I understand 12" (30 cm) is advised for Bizzies and Borassus.

Some palms hate being moved so much it's supposed to be best to germ them in the pot you want them to grow in, like Parajubes, Borassus and Bizzies.

How about that?

 

Killed one Sabinaria magnifica in 14 cm pot :-( Hit the bottom before radicle was made and rot away

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One of my mistakes has been germinating too many too close in either a zip lock bag or pots or even the ground.

And then I have a big job to separate them all and not have enough pots and soil for them all anyway.

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Cheers Steve

It is not dead, it is just senescence.

   

 

 

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So many good points so far.

I ordered too many 'easy' seeds last time and had a whole host of new thirsty friends that needed lots of space.

I managed to spread them out and donate the rest to friends, and yet still get tempted with buying wholesale haha

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Maybe I missed it, bit I didn't read about the wetness of the germinating medium. In my experience one of the most important things to get right. Too wet and the seeds might rot. It only needs very little moisture for the seeds to come into action. When done right, seeds can stay in a baggy for over a year (if nessecary) without rotting or fungus.

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www.facebook.com/#!/Totallycoconuts

Amsterdam,

The Netherlands

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1 hour ago, Kai said:

Maybe I missed it, bit I didn't read about the wetness of the germinating medium. In my experience one of the most important things to get right. Too wet and the seeds might rot. It only needs very little moisture for the seeds to come into action. When done right, seeds can stay in a baggy for over a year (if nessecary) without rotting or fungus.

And how can we recognize a lightly moist medium from a dry one? I am referring in particular to perlite, the most common germination medium. My hands have become to rough from gardening and therefore I have no more a sensitive finger tip feeling. Also hygrometers are useles in very porous medium. So is there any pratical advice that can help? Besides it has occured to me far to many times that in a moist medium with plenty of heat some seeds germinate within days or weeks while the rest of the same batch eventually rot after some months. And I am in great doubt , whether even those few seeds would also germinate in a drier medium. :bummed: 

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2 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

And how can we recognize a lightly moist medium from a dry one? I am referring in particular to perlite, the most common germination medium. My hands have become to rough from gardening and therefore I have no more a sensitive finger tip feeling. Also hygrometers are useles in very porous medium. So is there any pratical advice that can help? Besides it has occured to me far to many times that in a moist medium with plenty of heat some seeds germinate within days or weeks while the rest of the same batch eventually rot after some months. And I am in great doubt , whether even those few seeds would also germinate in a drier medium. :bummed: 

I understand your trouble in determining the moisture level of the medium. This is something where I've gone wrong many times and still do sometimes. When not able to properly feel the moisture with your hands, I would suggest you make it visual. Many germination media change in color when they dry out (get lighter). This point in color change is the point where you need to be, or just before actually. With perlite I understand this is not applicable. White doen't get much whiter. 

Many instructions I've read so far for germinating in cocopeat for example state that you should squeeze it hard in your fist and when no more drops come running out, it should have the right amount of moisture. Of course not every man can put the same pressure in his hands. For me the cocopeat still is way too moist after this practice.

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Amsterdam,

The Netherlands

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Another thing that I have often done wrong over the years is to, not label the seeds straight away when collecting or planting them.

I now take a picture of the plant or sign (if there is one) when I collect, and when I pot I tag them straight away. 

Mind you I still have some palms coming up that are unidentified now because my grand daughter ran around and pulled a lot of plant labels out.

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Cheers Steve

It is not dead, it is just senescence.

   

 

 

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14 hours ago, gtsteve said:

One of my mistakes has been germinating too many too close in either a zip lock bag or pots or even the ground.

And then I have a big job to separate them all and not have enough pots and soil for them all anyway.

Tell me about it!

I have about 600 Archie maxima babies.

Madness. Mother Nature's madness. Some survive . . . .

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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13 hours ago, Kai said:

I understand your trouble in determining the moisture level of the medium. This is something where I've gone wrong many times and still do sometimes. When not able to properly feel the moisture with your hands, I would suggest you make it visual. Many germination media change in color when they dry out (get lighter). This point in color change is the point where you need to be, or just before actually. With perlite I understand this is not applicable. White doen't get much whiter. 

Many instructions I've read so far for germinating in cocopeat for example state that you should squeeze it hard in your fist and when no more drops come running out, it should have the right amount of moisture. Of course not every man can put the same pressure in his hands. For me the cocopeat still is way too moist after this practice.

This germination in cocopeat is different from standard sawing mixture.

With standaard mixture( peat:riversand 3:1) take one hand, squeeze it hard en 2 or 3 drips come out is okay, this is the standard in professionel nursery

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By far I have more experience germinating coconuts than any other palms.  With that said, I still have a problem getting a higher number to germinate.  It seems that I either over water them (hard to believe since they grow naturally in areas that get over a 100 inches of rainfall per year) or I underwater them and they dry out too much in the hot dry Corpus Christ, Texas summers. 

I would like someone who is from an area that has a lot of coconut palms to tell me how you get the best germination rate with healthy robust palms.  I am asking about coconuts in the husk as we get a lot of them washing up on Texas beaches each year.  Do you plant them on their side, at an angle, or straight up with the point of attachment to the flower stalk sticking straight up?  I read years ago in some brochures sent to me from the Florida Extension Service that you get a better germination rate with coconuts planted on their side and in full sun, which is how I have planted most of mine, however, I have seen photos of wholesale growers planting the nuts straight up.  It seems to me that doing that would cause the coconut water/milk that the young embryo feeds off of to settle to the bottom of the nut and not adequately benefit the young sprout.  Also, some people have told me they get a better germination rate by planting the nuts in partial shade, however on tropical beaches, the nuts often wash up from other beaches and sprout in full sun.

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  • 2 years later...

I had an interesting situation with some Phoenix seeds I sprouted last summer.

I planted the seeds something like 1/2 inch deep. Most of them had 2 leaves out, but didn't look right. Looked like the base of the leaves were below the soil level. Sure enough, I "refreshed" the plants by pulling them out and repotted them, and found that the base of the plant where roots start coming out was something like 1 and 1/2 inches below the soil level.

Has anyone else had this happen? Is this a simply a symptom of planting the seed too deep?

Here they are after re-situating. I'm surprised they survived as well as they did for so long (the brown on the right was cold damage). These are P. loureiroi var. humilis.

WIN_20180212_172730.thumb.JPG.6a0d8d5767

P. canariensis: previous soil level seen where the green begins.

WIN_20180219_214817.thumb.JPG.3089898da5

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They will be fine lifted like that but they probably would had done perfectly well buried too. I have had phoenix powering along from three or 4 inches down.

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Cheers Steve

It is not dead, it is just senescence.

   

 

 

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On 11/15/2015, 8:56:05, Josh-O said:

I have never been a big fan of the "baggy method" It makes sense for small quantity germination but on a larger scale I prefer community pots on bottom heat for best results.

I have had way to much trouble with fungus issues in zip lock bags.

I concur. I still use baggies for Braheas, sometimes, sounds kinda kinky . . . .

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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  • 4 months later...

What about depth for seedlings germinated using the baggie method, sown in pots outdoors? How deep to bury the seedlings to avoid rot and drying out?

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10 minutes ago, Matt in OC said:

What about depth for seedlings germinated using the baggie method, sown in pots outdoors? How deep to bury the seedlings to avoid rot and drying out?

That depends on the (1) palm species, (2) the type of soil, and (3) the climate. There is no general rule you can apply equally to all species.

My photos at flickr: flickr.com/photos/palmeir/albums

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One thing I've found that works for many New Caledonian and mountain species is to err on the cooler side and create a day night temp fluctuation. I don't use heat mats or grow lamps any more. Some like Jubaea I just leave at room temperature in the house individually potted within plastic bags and others like Burretiokentia, Cyphophoenix etc I put in a compot in a plastic bag in a garden shed that's in partial shade. I adjust the max temp by putting them at different heights on shelves. Closer to the roof means higher maxes. The nights always cool off here so at night they all cool right down. It seems to work but that way in summer the top shelves may consistently reach 30C the lower shelves maybe 25C then mid teens at night.

For palms like rhopalostylis just leave in compots in the shade under irrigation and forget about them.

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Millbrook, "Kinjarling" Noongar word meaning "Place of Rain", Rainbow Coast, Western Australia 35S. Warm temperate. Csb Koeppen Climate classification. Cool nights all year round.

 

 

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On ‎11‎/‎15‎/‎2015‎ ‎8‎:‎19‎:‎15‎, DoomsDave said:

I've made them all:

Too cool for too long, likely the biggest problem.

Rotting in baggies. (Expletive to my own expletive self!)

Not being patient with some kinds with long germ timetables.

Forgetting about them, then tossing them into the compost pile where they pop right up!

Fungus on seed coat isn't usually a problem; the fungus that causes damping off is. They're different.

I'm getting better.

Gonna order some seeds from Rare Palm Seeds.

 

Seed propagation using the Doom methodology :D 

Coral Gables, FL 8 miles North of Fairchild USDA Zone 10B

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25 minutes ago, Moose said:

Seed propagation using the Doom methodology :D 

1. Get seed, from where ever.

2. Plant in pots. Cover with dirt.

3. Water.

4. Wait. And, maybe wait some more.

When the sprouts come, scream your favorite obscenity.

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Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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  • 5 years later...

I'm about to germinate some seeds using a heat mat. Am I supposed to create a buffer on the heat mat, like a towel, or do I just place things directly on the mat or in a plastic bin, then place the seeds in bags or lay them on soil or perlite?

I'm also really clueless about the best method for germination, which I was thinking of using the baggy method, the last time I germinated seeds I put washies in a tray and as they came up or I dug to see if they started sending a root out but it really made it a bit difficult and I had to guess because I like to move them as soon as. possible

Edited by ZPalms
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On 11/15/2015 at 3:29 AM, el-blanco said:

FRESH RIPE SEEDS!

One problem I encountered when I was germinating a lot of palm seeds was fungus.  I always soaked my seeds in a 10% / 10:1 bleach solution for 24 hours.  That usually took care of it.  When germinating in baggies on top of my water heater I REALLY MADE SURE I soaked them as described.

Actually I think that 10% bleach solution consists of 9 parts water and 1 part bleach 9:1...

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