Breeding cold hardy palms?

[SyaaniTemppu]

Hello!

 

I come from Finland, Kajaani. I've been asking in the chat if there's any cold hardy palms that could have a chance of surviving here (outdoors, over winter). But it seems like not even needle palm could do that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kajaani#Climate

 

That's why I got this crazy idea of breeding cold hardy palm that could survive outdoors here. So few questions.
Has anyone ever tried it?
I know it would take many years. So are there any species that could produce new ganeration relatively fast when grown from seed?
What would be the most potential specie/species to try out? Should be already semi-cold hardy specie(?)
Is it even biologically possible in decent time (not like thousands or millions of years)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d260CmZoxj8

 

My plan (if I even go for it) would be to grow them indoors and once in a while to expose them to cold temperatures. Then I'd collectively use the most resistant individuals or the ones who doesn't die to create new generation.
I also need to deal with the lack of sun during winters.

 

What do you guys think about that? Crazy? Impossible? Is it worth it?

[Trava]

Mission impossible.It is much easier build glasshouse.If you wish to play I can send you some Trachycarpus seeds.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Trava

[Yort]

Crazy? Yes!, Impossible? No, worth it? Probably easier to apply winter protection.

But yes it is possible to select on all traits so also on cold tollerance. Trachycarpus fortunei would be my choice to start with for your climate because of the relative fast growth, low seed price, and high germination rates. 

Beware that you will need huge amounts of seeds from as many different sources(preferably already from cold locations) as possible to have the biggest genepool. And you will need means for vegetative propagation.

[Palm crazy]

Some really good suggestion above, I would start with Trachycarpus ‘bullgaria', said to be the most cold hardy trunking palm.  I would get as many seed you can handle and put them in a cold frame and let the less hardy ones die off and hopefully you get a few that are supper hardy. But my thinking is if there was a really super hardy palm, it would have been discover in someone garden by now.  Needles palms don’t like cold wet winter like I have here so I don’t bother with them, they rot real easy here. 

[Josh-O]

I think Trachycarpus F. Is defiantly wort a shot

[Potsie]

Very interesting topic. I live in Finland too but at Helsinki USDA 6a and my climate is much milder than his at Kajaani. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki#Climate

I have many palms already from P. Canariensis to Chamaerops humilis. About 20 W. Filiferas from seeds and so on. They are growing fast and nicely, but inside not outside. What about my climate, is there anything for me to try? And can you tell if http://www.rarepalmseeds.com/ is good place to buy from?

 

Anyway, great to see another "Palm crazy" person from cold Finland.

[Flow]

Potsie, as said above, T. fortunei would be your best shot since it starts growing at relatively low temperatures (around 10C) and because it is cheap. Get as many seeds as you can and only keep the most coldhardy ones.
My climate is slightly warmer than yours but even here unprotected T. fortunei are wiped out during cold spells (around -15C at night and day highs below zero) that come every ten years or so if they are not in a favourable microclimate. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solothurn#Klima

Things look very different if you are willing to apply winter protection. I am currently growing three different species of Trachycarpus, a Rhapidophyllum, Sabal minor, Chamaerops and Jubaea. You could for example try Trachycarpus nanus or geminisectus which will never get too tall to protect (nanus is generally trunkless, geminisectus not taller than 2-3m).

Btw. I do not believe the forms of T. fortunei differ much in coldhardiness, one or two degrees at most. Everything else is due to good microclimate and enivronmental conditions and wishful thinking. So, I wouldn't bother looking for T. "Bulgaria". It will not make any difference, just more expensive to buy. Having said this, however, I am currently growing some T. "Tesan" just for the sake of it. I will happily send you one if you like.

cheers

Edited September 16, 2015 by Flow

[Potsie]

Thank you very much "flow", for your help. I appreciate that.

Our winters vary a lot. 2007-2008 winter was mild enough to keep olive tree outside all winter, and its not that cold hardy even? Last winter was about one month long, at ferbruary we already had sping with daytime highs up to +10C and nighttime temps at around +0C. 2013-2014 winter lasted for three weeks at janurary and rest of the season was very mild. Our tempatures are one of the mildest in Finland. Lowest tempature I have ever seen here is  -30C at 1998. -20C or -25C is really cold here and from -10C to -15C is average for winter day lows when its cold.

During a long winters we get a lot of snow, and that will protect plants even more. This year I am not able to try, but next year maybe.

I could keep cold hardy palm outside from 8 to 11 months of 12, and very very rarely almost 12 months. Summer highs varys from 20C to 28C maybe, and lows form 10C to 18C so its good to have a plant with a low growing tempature requirement. Humidity is usually high from 70 to 100%  (98% right now), but its not hot humidity but mild to cool and very pleasant. Is that helpful for palms? At springtime humidty is low so it might help palms a bit after winter?

Edited September 17, 2015 by Potsie

[Jamesasb]

This is an interesting and do-able idea but it might take a long time.

I germinated 100 beccariophoenix alfredi last year and even before they finished the first leaf winter arived.

I purposefully kept them very wet and let them freeze many times with a lowest of -4.1C  

There were 5 totally healthy survivors and 2 wounded ones the rest were totally dead. 

I think if -4.1C and very wet (which they hate) doesn't touch a seedling that hasn't made even one full leaf  then they should take even more abuse as they get bigger. 

 

You could do this with trachycarpus for sure and  Rhapidophyllum, Sabal minor and a couple of others.

There should be enough genetic variation and to be fair you could protect sabal minor very easily 

[Zeeth]

This is an interesting and do-able idea but it might take a long time.

I germinated 100 beccariophoenix alfredi last year and even before they finished the first leaf winter arived.

I purposefully kept them very wet and let them freeze many times with a lowest of -4.1C  

There were 5 totally healthy survivors and 2 wounded ones the rest were totally dead. 

I think if -4.1C and very wet (which they hate) doesn't touch a seedling that hasn't made even one full leaf  then they should take even more abuse as they get bigger. 

 

You could do this with trachycarpus for sure and  Rhapidophyllum, Sabal minor and a couple of others.

There should be enough genetic variation and to be fair you could protect sabal minor very easily 

Interesting experiment! I'd be curious to see updates as they grow and experience more winters. 

[CumberlandPlants]

Very interesting topic. I live in Finland too but at Helsinki USDA 6a and my climate is much milder than his at Kajaani. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki#Climate

I have many palms already from P. Canariensis to Chamaerops humilis. About 20 W. Filiferas from seeds and so on. They are growing fast and nicely, but inside not outside. What about my climate, is there anything for me to try? And can you tell if http://www.rarepalmseeds.com/ is good place to buy from?

 

Anyway, great to see another "Palm crazy" person from cold Finland.

Very interesting topic. I live in Finland too but at Helsinki USDA 6a and my climate is much milder than his at Kajaani. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki#Climate

I have many palms already from P. Canariensis to Chamaerops humilis. About 20 W. Filiferas from seeds and so on. They are growing fast and nicely, but inside not outside. What about my climate, is there anything for me to try? And can you tell if http://www.rarepalmseeds.com/ is good place to buy from?

 

Anyway, great to see another "Palm crazy" person from cold Finland.

I am growing needle palm and sabal minor in USDA 6B with occasional protection (only a weighted down sheet though I would use more protection than that the first year it is planted) on the minor(if we go below 10F) that should require no protect as it gets older as long as we do not go below -5F.  I know Sabal minor will survive coler than -5F. We just protect to preserve foliage. Minors need 90F to push decent new growth. If temps. Of 90F are rare, died black mulch is suggested to help inflate the ground temp. During the summer and get it growing.  Also suggest planting needle or minor in a microclimate( a foot or two off a wall or house facing south with full sun.  

Have herd a lot of good about Trachycarpus wagnerianus from a friend.  He also had good things to say about rarepalmseeds.com.  If you triend wagnerianus, I would keep the top covered the first few winters until it gets 7-8ft. Tall. By that height it should be big enough to handle winters with temps. Down to -5F without protection. One other thing! Beside to only use organic fertilizer on your cold hardy palms if any. Synthetic fertilizers push growth, and stress the palm out. Thus, causing weaker palm that is less cold hardy.  Have also herd that field grown large windmill pals are quite cold hardy. Have a friend trying them out a few miles away from me. Will keep you all updated on how they do through this coming winter.

 

[NorthFlpalmguy]

Although I am not in a colder climate (8b) I try and subject all the seedlings I have to an unprotected winter just so the weaker culls will hopefully die off.

This is an interesting and do-able idea but it might take a long time.

I germinated 100 beccariophoenix alfredi last year and even before they finished the first leaf winter arived.

I purposefully kept them very wet and let them freeze many times with a lowest of -4.1C  

There were 5 totally healthy survivors and 2 wounded ones the rest were totally dead. 

I think if -4.1C and very wet (which they hate) doesn't touch a seedling that hasn't made even one full leaf  then they should take even more abuse as they get bigger. 

 

You could do this with trachycarpus for sure and  Rhapidophyllum, Sabal minor and a couple of others.

There should be enough genetic variation and to be fair you could protect sabal minor very easily 

I do the same to all my seedlings to weed out the culls.

[Kai]

Try to get some Trachycarpus fortunei seeds from the Netherlands. Many people here grow mature, healthy, very cold tolerant specimens in their gardens. They set seed every year for most people and the seeds are dispersed for free to anyone who is interested.

If my Trachies were flowering I'd be more than happy to supply you, but I think I have wait a couple of years for that.
Maybe some of my fellow countrymen with mature Trachies can jump in on this thread and get you a batch of seed?

Good luck anyways, I would be very interesting to see them growing that far north.

[DoomsDave]

Jaakko!

Nice to see you posting!

You're way up there, in a sub arctic zone. There is a guy in Norway 100 miles south of the Arctic Circle who grows palms outside, but he's on the coast, much milder than your place is, I'm afraid.

Do see my Private message . . .

dave

[Potsie]

Very interesting topic. I live in Finland too but at Helsinki USDA 6a and my climate is much milder than his at Kajaani. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki#Climate

I have many palms already from P. Canariensis to Chamaerops humilis. About 20 W. Filiferas from seeds and so on. They are growing fast and nicely, but inside not outside. What about my climate, is there anything for me to try? And can you tell if http://www.rarepalmseeds.com/ is good place to buy from?

 

Anyway, great to see another "Palm crazy" person from cold Finland.

 

Very interesting topic. I live in Finland too but at Helsinki USDA 6a and my climate is much milder than his at Kajaani. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki#Climate

I have many palms already from P. Canariensis to Chamaerops humilis. About 20 W. Filiferas from seeds and so on. They are growing fast and nicely, but inside not outside. What about my climate, is there anything for me to try? And can you tell if http://www.rarepalmseeds.com/ is good place to buy from?

 

Anyway, great to see another "Palm crazy" person from cold Finland.

I am growing needle palm and sabal minor in USDA 6B with occasional protection (only a weighted down sheet though I would use more protection than that the first year it is planted) on the minor(if we go below 10F) that should require no protect as it gets older as long as we do not go below -5F.  I know Sabal minor will survive coler than -5F. We just protect to preserve foliage. Minors need 90F to push decent new growth. If temps. Of 90F are rare, died black mulch is suggested to help inflate the ground temp. During the summer and get it growing.  Also suggest planting needle or minor in a microclimate( a foot or two off a wall or house facing south with full sun.  

Have herd a lot of good about Trachycarpus wagnerianus from a friend.  He also had good things to say about rarepalmseeds.com.  If you triend wagnerianus, I would keep the top covered the first few winters until it gets 7-8ft. Tall. By that height it should be big enough to handle winters with temps. Down to -5F without protection. One other thing! Beside to only use organic fertilizer on your cold hardy palms if any. Synthetic fertilizers push growth, and stress the palm out. Thus, causing weaker palm that is less cold hardy.  Have also herd that field grown large windmill pals are quite cold hardy. Have a friend trying them out a few miles away from me. Will keep you all updated on how they do through this coming winter.

 

Thank you very much. I will order from rarepalmseeds.com at january or februay. Some Trachycarpuses (at least wagnerianus) for sure and Sabal minor. Autumn just started here and weather is cold now with lows of -3C (26F)  at night but its only for this week and then it gets milder again, daytime highs at +5 to +7C (41 to 44F) so it get colder very slowly and palms will have a lot of time to adapt before real cold weather.

[Yort]

You will have a beter chance of succeding with fortunei than wagnerianus. You could try Sabal minor but I think it won't grow in your summers, even here in The Netherlands it's hard to keep it alive. The needle palm may be worth a shot.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Yort

[Potsie]

So many palms I don't know what to order. Maybe I just move to the Spain   What about a glassed-in balcony? Its hot at summer and maybe 1-2 degrees celsius warmer at winter.

[CumberlandPlants]

So many palms I don't know what to order. Maybe I just move to the Spain   What about a glassed-in balcony? Its hot at summer and maybe 1-2 degrees celsius warmer at winter.

Yes! But that is why growing from seed is helpful!  I also had a small Cabbage palmetto and sabal tamulipas survive this past winter with only being planted in the ground less than a year and with temps reaching as low as -3F.  With protection below 10F(No heat.  Just a sheet around the stem and a weighted down box or sheet over top the palm foliage.  the foliage died back to ground level, but they both recovered 3+ fronds this year!  

Your biggest challenge is probably going to be extended periods of time with temperature below  freezing. I know we have have had 7 days in a row with temps. Below freezing, but the palms that dealt with that period of cold were well established. This below freezing cold spell was not extreme either.  Also. It depends on how cold for how long. So, my suggestion would be use heat on your palms if any temps. Below freezing are forcasted for more than 3 days in a row for the first year you have them in the ground; especially if below 15F is forcasted.  If you get multiple temperatures above freezing during the winter. Would definitely suggest ucovering your palms during these time frames.  Just to be clear, this curent post applies to mainly Sabals and needles.  Trachycarpus fortunei require need heat along with other protection tips that were highlight in the previous post from me.

[pigafetta]

Its kinda fast tracking evolution really but realistically it would take quite a few generations of selecting the toughest plants to get anywhere and need to be done on such a huge scale and ensure seeds are already taken from the highest altitude possible even after all that id be fairly sceptical.

[Potsie]

Still quite mild http://www.foreca.com/Finland/Helsinki?tenday

I saw these palms last week: They look like phoenix canariensis but are they? They look slighly different, survived -7C at city center near sea. Those are growing so they are real palms and last one is partly dead.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Potsie

[Ben in Norcal]

Tough to tell from the resolution on that pic.  They almost look like Phoenix rupicola, but those probably wouldn't have survived -7.

Can you get better pics of individual plants?  It's definitely a Phoenix.

[Potsie]

If they are still outside i will take better pictures next week as soon as i can. I am not sure about that -7, because city center is milder than my home. I had -7 at one early morning here once. but I am 10km away from city center and 4km from sea. And those palms are at city center and only 66m from sea. One place close to sea only had -1 when i had -7. But they had freezing too, and place where those palms are is windy and humid.

[Turtile]

First, we would need to develop good tissue culture techniques for cold hardy palms.  You can create the most cold hardy palm but its offspring will all be variable.  I've figured out how to determine cold tolerance without cold exposure but even with that, it will take years and years of work to go from seed to mature tree and repeat.

[Potsie]

I wasn't able to take pictures. I will start new topic at spring. This topic is about breeding cold hardy palms but its not  what i am doing it was other persons idea so i will make new and send you summer palm pictures there. Washingtonia filiferas and phoenix canariensis etc etc. 

I am looking for good summer palms and trachycarpus seems to be one of those. It looks cool and will grow in low tempatures and we can put it outside very early because its so hardy. Cold winter is usually short and rest of it is trachycarpus sort of winter. 

 

Thank you very much about all the infromation and help. I use phone now so sorry about mistakes if theres any.

[Jamesasb]

On 21/09/2015, 21:23:48, Jamesasb said:

This is an interesting and do-able idea but it might take a long time.

I germinated 100 beccariophoenix alfredi last year and even before they finished the first leaf winter arived.

I purposefully kept them very wet and let them freeze many times with a lowest of -4.1C  

There were 5 totally healthy survivors and 2 wounded ones the rest were totally dead. 

I think if -4.1C and very wet (which they hate) doesn't touch a seedling that hasn't made even one full leaf  then they should take even more abuse as they get bigger. 

 

You could do this with trachycarpus for sure and  Rhapidophyllum, Sabal minor and a couple of others.

There should be enough genetic variation and to be fair you could protect sabal minor very easily 

The Beccariophoenix alfredi survivors from last winter  have now taken -5C with very heavy frost and wet leaves to start with so there were hard lumps of ice under the frosty coating. one of the seedlings is 60% fried with (newest leaf and spear still good) and I have 4 which are totally unharmed. I think this is pretty remarkable for beccariophoenix really since my much larger parajubaea has been mostly fried from the exact same conditions.

 

Makes me wonder what temperature would kill a palm that's not even touched by -5C.?? next year we might get lower so I'll keep you updated

[Potsie]

Our winter was "mild". Real winter was three weeks with lows from -20 to -28C and thats it. Rest of the winter has been spring like, some mild freezings from -4 to 0 and sometimes -8C at night and +1 or +2C during a day. Now its +5 and very sunny, sun is warm and snow is gone in sunny places. First cheap subtropicals outside, but there is still high risk of the mild freezings and phoenix canariensis is still inside, but I believe trachycarpuses and everything would survive our winters except that three weeks period that happens every or every second year, but protection may help or then keeping them in a pot and outside for most of the winter. Its hard to make peoples to understand that you can have them outside for most of the winter, but no, they wait until its may or something and waste most of the growing season and sunshine.

We have mix of continental and maritime climates and thats why it might be -28C and then +4 suddenly. Its sunny and cold or mild and rainy. Mild is typical and real cold like -28C is extreme and last for a short time only usually. But I know that because of extremes I cant have palms outside without good protection or at all. 

Edited March 12, 2016 by Potsie

[Jamesasb]

If I were you I would grow dwarf palms in pots and take them inside for winter. Palms which you might be able to keep alive won't look that good after winter if they are kept outside even protected at -20 or -25C. I have never heard of any palm actually surviving  below -20C let alone every year or 2 years.

You could keep so many different palms in pots and they would look very good condition in spring.

chamaerops, dwarf butia sp, can live their total life in pots and many others you can too. even CIDP can be kept in a pot and it will not grow like as big as one in the ground

 

 

[Potsie]

I have chamaerops humilis that is growing fast in a pot. I have one about 1,5m tall (without pot) CIDP (It was a lot smaller three years ago). I just ordered 30 washingtonia filifera seeds that usually germinate in two weeks in my conditons. Cycads etc and 1,5m tall (without pot) Ensete ventricosum from seed and many many others. 

They sell mostly CIDP:s and chamaeropses here to keep outside and then Livistona chinensis mostly to keep inside (but those are a bit cold hardy?) and some big Phoenix roebeleniins. Rest of them are inside palms that we cant keep outside or not for a long at least but i am trying to keep Howea forsteriana outside this summer for three months.. They do sell a lot of CIDP:s and you can see them at peoples balconies and outside of some buildings at summer, for some reason i havent seen any trachycarpuses anywhere and there is no place that sells them...

Yesterday, highest temp was +6 and this morning it was -2 and then soon again +2C. CIDP can handle these easliy I guess? I try to use USDA system (this is wrong way I know) to know when to put them outside. USDA right now is 8a or 8b (in next weeks extreme lowest temps to expect are -6 or -8C, but those may not happen and lowest stays at -4C and above zero at day), Its above 0 every day and gets below zero at most nights now. Most of the winter USDA was 7b and 8a (-10C was about lowest ), but it was between 5a and 6b for three weeks. Our usual USDA zone is 6a and  sometimes 5b. Summertime is from 11a up to 12b with nighttime temps from +10 to +18C and highest temps from +20 to +28C , it never gets below 0C for minimun three months for sure and at those months I try to keep Howea outside. Using USDA this way helps me to know what plants to have outside and when.

 

Edited March 13, 2016 by Potsie