Northwest FL's Largest P. Canariensis- in Jepoardy?

[Matthew92]

Northwest Florida is severely limited in durable public palms for planting primarily due to cold winter temps. Still, marginal palms (L. chinensis, P. sylvestris, P. canariensis, W. robusta) are planted and tend to struggle or get killed in winter and look unsightly a bit of the time. This has been especially seen lately, with our last two winters fulfilling our zone 8b designation by hitting the upper teens..

Needless to say, palm trees are somewhat lacking and do not act as the defining vegetation feature such as Washingtonia and P. canariensis provide in places like Los Angeles. Our tallest, most prominent palms are probably a few W. robusta's that have managed to survive the harsh winters.

These are probably the tallest W. robustas you'll see in the area- this was taken in April 2015 and they are still recovering from a winter with freezes just below 20 degrees and others into the mid to low 20's- now 5 months later I just saw them in person and noted the canopies have fully recovered.

Just down the street in the heart of Ft. Walton Beach is a notable shopping center. A little over 10 years ago, it was dying and lacked much curb appeal both with landscaping and the building facades. However, it was revitalized, and a premier landscaping job was done adding primarily palms along the front area by the street. Two completely full sized Canary Island date palm specimens were installed, and are stunning as the centerpiece.

The above picture was taken in 2008 after these palms had been in the ground several years already. Unfortunately as seen with the sabals, the landscapers who upkeep the planting tend to very much overprune. Despite this, the Canaries at least don't look as overpruned as they could be, although it is still a far cry from the huge, full headed, street specimens found in places like the Los Angeles area.

This is a very significant palm planting for our area. I've seen most places out at the beach where you find the largest date palm specimens at upscale developments and ritzy homes, but almost all of them are P. dactylifera or hybrids, not pure canariensis. After living here for years, searching Google streetview extensively and traveling in person, I speculate that this has to be the largest Canary at least in the area if not NW FL. First of all, it takes DECADES for one to grow this tall, and if you are going to find a specimen this large that was grown from a small tree here in the FL Panhandle, it will have had to survived the bone-numbing 4 degrees F recorded in 1985. Among the largest canariensis in the area I've seen grown from a small tree stage is one that I mentioned in another topic here.

(Typical look of P. canariensis in the Ft. Walton Beach area)

As for winter damage on the two trees at the shopping center, they seem to look fine in the picture from 2008. And rightly so, because many of the winters endured in the mid to late 2000's in this area were mild only getting to 9a, which Canaries can handle. Still, it is always a risk for such a marginal zone 9 palm here in zone 8 and it is inevitable that a solid zone 8 winter will come along. And boy did it ever happen in both the 2013-2014 and 2014-2015 winters which including many freezes in the low 20's, 17 deg freeze (during which stayed stayed good 24 hours or so below freezing), ice storm down to 20 deg (another 24+ hours below freezing), and another freeze to 18 deg.

After these two absolutely brutal winters (for marginal palms at least) here's what these two P. canariensis look like now.

This was taken in April 2015-

As you can see, the leaves are substantially damaged but totally recoverable. And keep in mind that this is after the second winter which was just a little less brutal than 2014. Frond damage was probably 80%+ (as with most all other canariensis in the area) for that first one.

Also I take this time to note the trunk of the larger specimen. It has a few divots and scratches as I have seen in very old specimens out in California, which makes me question the origins of this palm. I wonder if it could have been brought out from the far west? Anyone know where they bring in large, full sized 30+ feet Canary Island Date Palms for plantings like this in Florida?

Another point I'd like to discuss is P. canariensis' performance in the humid subtropics. I've seen some pictures from areas along the Mississippi Gulf Coast of what I speculate are Canaries that may have been grown in ground from a small tree. They were about 20-25 feet tall and looked somewhat decent: again though, I don't know for sure that they weren't installed as already full grown specimens. But as for Florida, I have NEVER seen a Canary grown from a small tree in ground that has gotten to the magnitude of those seen in California. Most Canaries in FL are just...okay... they tend to be prone to yellowing, and the leaves just don't usually seem to be to the full sized potential of the aforementioned one's out west. I've never heard this said before, but is the climate in FL a little too humid and tropical-like for a Canary? I would think so to some extent. Now I have seen just a few very much healthy specimens that look to be on track to achieving full potential in FL (such as the one I previously mentioned earlier in another forum). But still, I believe Canaries in the humid subtropics don't seem to thrive as much as those seen in an optimal Mediterranean climate.

Now back to these two transplants growing in the humid and frigid FL Panhandle. Unlike the robustas I mentioned earlier in the post, Canaries are VERY SLOW to recover. Again, from the specimen in my area I've already mentioned and given a link to twice, it actually took about two full growing season for that one to recover its entire canopy after the 2010 freeze to 17 degrees. So two back to back winters of below 20 degree temps (which is when they really start to burn) has been pretty tough on local Canaries. As for these two at the shopping center, they have had a further set back. Last night when I drove down this street and took note of the robustas nice recovery, I also saw that all the palms at this shopping center had just been over-trimmed as usual. And to my dismay, I was devastated to see that they had hacked away at the recovering canopy of the two large Canaries. Now only several fronds point upwards at a 45+ degree angle. Just a few more months and it will be winter and risk of another sub-20 degree freeze, which with such a meager weakened canopy, it could very well be the last straw for these magnificent palms. They are a rare gem here in NW FL. Boy, sometimes you wish you could just grab and shake those landscapers....

I'll be monitoring the progress of these palms, and I'd really like to hear your take on some of the points brought up in this post

Matt,

Edited September 1, 2015 by Opal92

[NorthFlpalmguy]

It must be a more westernly panhandle issue or individual palm issue. Madison, Perry, and Lake City all have very large CIDPs in Zone 8 that do fine and have been there for many decades. I know there's a wholesale grower in Mobile with field grown CIDPs. I think the problem is they grow these in south/central Florida and then ship here to plant without any acclimation plus it might not be 100% established.

I would imagine California is a little more like the CIDP's native climate is why it grows a little better there.

[Matthew92]

The CIDPs, Dates, and Sylvestris in Lake City, Madison, Tallahassee, and from what I can remember PCB look fine as usual. It must be a more westernly panhandle issue. Madison, Perry, and Lake City all have large CIDPs in Zone 8 that do fine and have been there for many decades.

I would imagine California is a little more like the CIDP's native climate is why it grows a little better there.

I think you're right. From my observations as well, it gets a little less brutal farther East- even though much of those areas are still considered zone 8. For example, Gainesville is zone 8b, but as of right now there are good sized queens palms that have survived through the same freeze events that decimated all other queens west of PCB in the Panhandle in the last few years.

[Matthew92]

Here are some other pictures that include Canaries to give you an idea of what these trees endured:

[Matthew92]

Canary on the left side of the picture:

[Brad Mondel]

CIDP and Washingtonia are marginal in zone 8b. They really are a zone 9 palm unless they have perfect drainage and dry winters. I lived in Myrte Beach, S.C for seven years which is zone 8b. Canaries struggled to survive and Washingtonias always defoliate, unless they're situated immediately on the coast. I believe the sandy soil and warm ocean currents keep them happy on the beach. The sand provides perfect drainage while most of South Carolinas coastal soils are gumbo. Which is basically swamp mud. Palms grown in raised beds do much better during winter than ones planted at soil level.

What is the soil like in your area of Florida? The reason they do so well out west is because of perfect drainage and drier winters. Cold wet winters are a palm killer. I do know that CIDP looks amazing when you get into warmer parts of Florida, but zone 8b is rough.

Here is a progression page on CIDP growing in North Myrtle Beach (note defoliation and recent years of decline):

http://www.garysnursery.com/Phoenix.html

Edited September 1, 2015 by ArchAngeL01

[Matthew92]

CIDP and Washingtonia are marginal in zone 8b. They really are a zone 9 palm unless they have perfect drainage and dry winters. I lived in Myrte Beach, S.C for seven years which is zone 8b. Canaries struggled to survive and Washingtonias always defoliate, unless they're situated immediately on the coast. I believe the sandy soil and warm ocean currents keep them happy on the beach. The sand provides perfect drainage while most of South Carolinas coastal soils are gumbo. Which is basically swamp mud. Palms grown in raised beds do much better during winter than ones planted at soil level.

What is the soil like in your area of Florida? The reason they do so well out west is because of perfect drainage and drier winters. Cold wet winters are a palm killer. I do know that CIDP looks amazing when you get into warmer parts of Florida, but zone 8b is rough.

Here is a progression page on CIDP growing in North Myrtle Beach (note defoliation and recent years of decline):

http://www.garysnursery.com/Phoenix.html

Thanks for the reply, and that is a neat site you linked! As for your question about drainage in my area. Well, mostly it is pure sand, and as you said, Washingtonia, Phoenix, and other palms that do require fast draining soil love it, and many I've seen around here thrive in it when they are given a chance (between damaging freezes and overzealous pruners).

Here's a good shot of what the bare soil looks like- absolutely pure sand that is easy to dig in. They call the area I'm in the "sandhill," and for good reason. Most native plants in the area such as "sand pine" or "sand live oak" do exactly just that- they're very tolerant of the ridiculous drainage whereas your common lush, broadleaf oaks or maples usual succumb to what I call "sandhill syndrome" and suddenly die after several years from complications in this difficult soil. Although as I referred to, these palms from drier, more desert areas do really well in it- such as this Canary specimen in my neighborhood.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Opal92

[Brad Mondel]

That's a very nice recovery! Was it planted as a large specimen or did it grow from a small potted plant? The small ones almost always die in Myrtle unless you protect them during the winter.

[Matthew92]

That's a very nice recovery! Was it planted as a large specimen or did it grow from a small potted plant? The small ones almost always die in Myrtle unless you protect them during the winter.

It was a bit smaller when I moved back into this neighborhood in 2007. And looking at archived images from Google Earth, it is visible on aerial imagery and gets smaller and smaller back to around 2003 where it gets very small and the imagery gets too old to tell. I think it is a true "home-grown" specimen. And probably part of it's ability to survive so well is that it had a nice, FULL canopy before the 2014 winter as the people living there have always been sensible to not over-prune it.

[Josh-O]

Here are some other pictures that include Canaries to give you an idea of what these trees endured:

wow!! That's crazy how much damage there was

[John Case]

The high pressure ridge that dominated the West Coast and pushed all of the cold arctic air to the East Coast is reported to be gone and for this winter you shouldn't be getting the brutal cold temperatures you have had the past 2-3 years.

That is, if you believe in weather forecasting!

[smithgn]

Bepah, I thought that these ridges are always fluctuating? Do you have a link to this? Very interesting and of course, very good news for us in the southeast!

[John Case]

Bepah, I thought that these ridges are always fluctuating? Do you have a link to this? Very interesting and of course, very good news for us in the southeast!

It is mentioned in the following link.....https://baynature.org/articles/today-in-el-nino-advice-dont-worry-about-the-blob/

take it cum grano salis....

[Mr.SamuraiSword]

WOW.  Ive seen the same kind of date palms in southern NC and they look far better then the ones pictured here!

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

I wonder how the large canaries in this post currently look. The canaries in this thread look very similar to one ones in Dallas/Fort Worth cool 8B/warm 8A. They survive, but only look good after consecutive warm winters. 

[Matthew92]

2 hours ago, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

I wonder how the large canaries in this post currently look. The canaries in this thread look very similar to one ones in Dallas/Fort Worth cool 8B/warm 8A. They survive, but only look good after consecutive warm winters. 

I do remember a month or two driving by and they were looking a lot better/fuller. Will try to get pictures soon.

[SailorBold]

Do the Phoenix hybrids behave differently?   Mule Palms do well there don't they?  Seems like to me.. that those would be an ideal alternative.

[mthteh1916]

On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2015‎ ‎11‎:‎43‎:‎25‎, John Case said:

It is mentioned in the following link.....https://baynature.org/articles/today-in-el-nino-advice-dont-worry-about-the-blob/

 

take it cum grano salis....

Unfortunately the blob is back this year stronger than ever. They are predicting a very cold winter for the East yet again like 2014 and 2015.

[Explorer]

Palms at the Redneck Riviera, well they look better at the French Riviera! Also much better food their!

Only nice Sarracenia close to that Redneck Riviera.

 

Alexander

[Matthew92]

34 minutes ago, Explorer said:

Palms at the Redneck Riviera, well they look better at the French Riviera! Also much better food their!

Only nice Sarracenia close to that Redneck Riviera.

Alexander

Well, at least there is much more to this area than freeze burnt palm trees and tourist traps...

Yes, the Sarracenia (pitcher plant) is part of our longleaf pine ecosystem- one of the most ecologically diverse in the world: not appreciated enough around here. 

[DoomsDave]

I will go outside and feast my eyes on all the common palms I take so for granted . . . .

Thanks for the perspective!

 

[DG57]

Hi, I'm new on this forum (even if I registered back in August 2016, it's my first comment on here).

It's so surprising that it can get way colder at times in the Florida Panhandle than on the French Riviera even if, all in all, winter is warmer on average in NW Florida than on the French very SE coast.

I see that, for example, Pensacola, FL already went down to -15°C (+5°F). It's the city's record cold. While Menton, FR has never recorded temperatures below -5°C (+23°F). It's actually the coldest value ever recorded there.

No wonder why certain palms that do make every winter on the French Riviera, can't make some occasional harsher winters on the Panhandle.  

[RR soFLA]

From my observation, Washies and CIPD's are often not great looking palms in South Florida. I still really appreciate our beautiful state tree. Especially untrimmed, full crown, with boots. An easy grow, attractive in it's various growth stages and bulletproof in all of Florida.

[Steve the palmreader]

4 hours ago, RR soFLA said:

From my observation, Washies and CIPD's are often not great looking palms in South Florida. I still really appreciate our beautiful state tree. Especially untrimmed, full crown, with boots. An easy grow, attractive in it's various growth stages and bulletproof in all of Florida.

Ratty looking

[RR soFLA]

1 hour ago, Steve the palmreader said:

Ratty looking

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[DCA_Palm_Fan]

On 1/12/2017, 8:10:47, Steve the palmreader said:

Ratty looking

That is your opinion, and it stinks frankly.   smh.     So tell us what exactly is so "ratty looking" about it?  Please be specific. 

[Mr.SamuraiSword]

On 1/12/2017, 8:10:47, Steve the palmreader said:

Ratty looking

explain please.  

[PalmTreeDude]

On 1/12/2017, 8:10:47, Steve the palmreader said:

Ratty looking

I love the looks of this U.S. native palm.