Jubaea X Butia F3 growth in SE NC

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I purchased this Jubaea x Buita from Garry's Nursery in New Bern NC, in May of 2015. I mostly bare rooted it before planting, due to the extreme difference in soil texture in the nice porous potting media and my heavy clay. I've had to learn the hard way about amending clay soil, or creating mini-bogs out of large root balls and potting media. From what I can gather this is at least an F3 from seeds from the late Dr. Wilcox's palm. Since my family and friends think I'm crazy if I excitedly talk about my F3 hybrid Jubutia finally pushing a new spear, I'll stick to posting photo updates to it's progress here where there might be more interest.

post-13669-0-47058500-1441049907_thumb.j

This plant barely grew for nearly 2 months (I marked the spear, and it moved less than an inch a week). I don't know if it was angry from the brutal bare root treatment, or the extremely hot July. However now that it has settled in and things have cooled off a bit, it has opened 2 new leaves and is working on a third since the beginning of August.

I will post updated photos as it grows (and the weeds take over the lawn)

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It's awesome Joe! I share your excitement with palms and watching them grow. Don't let anyone take that away from you. Some just don't understand. Haha :) post updates soon.

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It looks like it wasn't happy in the pot.. judging from the color change of the leaves. Whatever you did it worked.. it looks great. How is Gary's palm doing did you get a chance to see it ?

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Thanks. It was a bit yellow overall in the pot, and now is slowly greening up with some ferts. I have also been fighting a bit of mealybugs and scale causing some yellow spotting on the older leaves. I didn't want to break out big gun pesticides, since there have been a fair amount of ladybugs doing the work for me. I have mostly just used the hose on the undersides of the leaves, and tried to kill the ant farmers with a little plastic bait station. It all seems to have helped. The color change isn't as dramatic as it appears in the pics, the second one was taken just after it rained with a bright overcast sky when everything green outside always looks amazing. I didn't get a chance to look around at all while I was at Garry's Nursery. It is a 2 hour drive from my house, and they are only open to 5 on the weekdays and have limited call ahead hours on the weekend. I was planning on taking a day off from work to drive up there, but managed to call one Saturday morning at 9:30 when they would be open to around noon. I basically showed up with about 10 minutes to spare, agonized over which of the the ~10 hybrids to buy (of course liked the two that were flagged as sold the best), and left so the woman helping me could close before tropical storm Ana hit. I drove home in the outer rain bands, and planted it during high enough winds that I had to tie it down.

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A new development, the newest growth on this palm is now emerging blueish.  Oddly I'm not that excited about this, as I specifically picked out the most green plant so it would be as "Jubaea-y" as possible.  As long as this palm keeps growing and lives up to its giant potential, I'll be happy.

 

F3blue.thumb.jpg.869a9633a4f04c901e71d82

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Nice..   Do you think the greener form is hardier? 

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My color preference was mostly just so it looked different to the casual observer than the other pindos in my yard, and looked more like a Jub to me.

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A new development, the newest growth on this palm is now emerging blueish.  Oddly I'm not that excited about this, as I specifically picked out the most green plant so it would be as "Jubaea-y" as possible.  As long as this palm keeps growing and lives up to its giant potential, I'll be happy.

 

F3blue.thumb.jpg.869a9633a4f04c901e71d82

Love that color! :wub:

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JubxBut_grow2015.thumb.jpg.528fb7600ba3c

Filling in and showing the "blueness" from a distance now.  The mulch ring keeps growing too...

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wow, the color changing is very sharp! nice palm indeed

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It looks more like a Butia x Jubaea vs Jubaea x Butia. JxB looks more like Jubaea. 

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Looks good Joe, I have two JxB F2 one is solid green about the same size as yours and the other one much smaller turned blue right away on me. Looking forward to see how yours looks next growing season.  Great pictures!

Edited by Palm crazy
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1 hour ago, Brad Mondel said:

It looks more like a Butia x Jubaea vs Jubaea x Butia. JxB looks more like Jubaea. 

I am not a plant geneticist, but here is my bio nerd take on this.  It is at least an F3 from a suspected Jubaea X Butia (descendant from the "Jubaea" at Fairchild, which was supposedly grown from a Jubaea seed).  So depending how along the way it was pollinated (outcrossed or selfed), it is mostly (7/8ish) Butia DNA.  The benefits from having the Jubaea  as the seed parent 3 generations back is from the  cytoplasmic inheritance.  All of this DNA is inherited from the "mother" seed parent of the cross.  This is probably why a JxB looks more like a J than a BxJ.  So even 3 or 4 generations out,  this plant should still display the traits that are influenced by the cytoplasmic inheritance from the Jubaea.  I think somewhere I remember reading that Dr. Wilcox suspected this extranuclear DNA to play a role in trunk diameter and overall size in this cross.   

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Thanks for the information. This explains why it looks the way it does and why F1's look the way they do. Hopefully more of that Jubaea dna will express itself but so far it's an awesome palm.

But how does a BxJ have the Jubaea type trunk? If this is true wouldn't BxJ have a Butia type trunk? 

Here's a BxJ trunk I took a picture of in Los Angeles: 

image.thumb.jpg.7838c881a2262b7fc9f803f5

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My JxB

20151219_162959_zpsfefcmtzv.jpg

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One year in the ground update.  

I have high hopes for a growth spurt this summer now that it is hopefully established.  It also has a new neighbor in the background, a (BxJ)xJ.

 

jbxbutmay2016.thumb.jpg.25a540bd69e2716d

Edited by Joe NC
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It looks a lot like my JxB F2, just more blue than mine. But the leaves look the same as mine. 

It looking very nice! 

Edited by Palm crazy
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Update:

It is not committed to being totally blue....  The new spring growth is/was very blue, but as the fronds age they fade green.  My thoughts are the waxy bloom that causes the blue color just washes away particularly easy on this plant?  It has been wet, hot, and really wet this summer2016.thumb.jpg.009cf5d2733fd059f5dcaa4b3.     

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On 8/19/2016, 7:05:52, Joe NC said:

Update:

It is not committed to being totally blue....  The new spring growth is/was very blue, but as the fronds age they fade green.  My thoughts are the waxy bloom that causes the blue color just washes away particularly easy on this plant?  It has been wet, hot, and really wet this summer2016.thumb.jpg.009cf5d2733fd059f5dcaa4b3.     

its starting to enter the chunky phase :)

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On 8/23/2016, 12:41:25, Josh-O said:

its starting to enter the chunky phase :)

Bring on the chunk!  I am looking forward to it dominating this part of the yard.

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On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2015‎ ‎11‎:‎52‎:‎57‎, Joe NC said:

I am not a plant geneticist, but here is my bio nerd take on this.  It is at least an F3 from a suspected Jubaea X Butia (descendant from the "Jubaea" at Fairchild, which was supposedly grown from a Jubaea seed).  So depending how along the way it was pollinated (outcrossed or selfed), it is mostly (7/8ish) Butia DNA.  The benefits from having the Jubaea  as the seed parent 3 generations back is from the  cytoplasmic inheritance.  All of this DNA is inherited from the "mother" seed parent of the cross.  This is probably why a JxB looks more like a J than a BxJ.  So even 3 or 4 generations out,  this plant should still display the traits that are influenced by the cytoplasmic inheritance from the Jubaea.  I think somewhere I remember reading that Dr. Wilcox suspected this extranuclear DNA to play a role in trunk diameter and overall size in this cross.   

Can you dumb it down please..  lol..   I know this has been asked before in the past..  but which hybrids exhibit self-cleaning?  Do you think one might be able to use this as a trait in identification?

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1 hour ago, SailorBold said:

Can you dumb it down please..  lol..   I know this has been asked before in the past..  but which hybrids exhibit self-cleaning?  Do you think one might be able to use this as a trait in identification?

My experience actually growing these hybrids is fairly limited (see above post, lol), but I have tried to read as much I can find about them.  From what I can gather, first generation hybrid (F1) palms with a pure Jubaea as the seed parent "mom" (JxB F1)  seem to be the ones with the nicely self cleaning trunks.  The PDF in the link below details the differences between JxB and BxJ.  

Hodel 2011  

As for the cytoplasmic inheritance part. Even though a JxB and BxJ each get half of their genes (DNA inside the cell nucleus) from a Jubaea and Butia, the ones with the Jubaea as the "mom" look more like a Jubaea. The thought is this can be explained by the cytoplasmic DNA (DNA outside the cell nucleus) inheritance that comes from the "mother" plant.  Chloroplasts and mitochondria have their own DNA and get inherited directly from the "mother" in the egg cell.  So all the cytoplasmic DNA in a JxB is from a Jubaea, and all the cytoplasmic DNA in a BxJ is from a Butia. 

The neat part is.....the great great great great great great great grandchild of a JXB (F10 hybrid), even if each time was always pollinated by a Butia, still has only the cytoplasmic DNA of a Jubaea.

It should be interesting to see how some of the back crosses like (BxJ)XJ turn out as far as trunk self cleaning goes. 

 

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On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2016‎ ‎8‎:‎44‎:‎30‎, Joe NC said:

My experience actually growing these hybrids is fairly limited (see above post, lol), but I have tried to read as much I can find about them.  From what I can gather, first generation hybrid (F1) palms with a pure Jubaea as the seed parent "mom" (JxB F1)  seem to be the ones with the nicely self cleaning trunks.  The PDF in the link below details the differences between JxB and BxJ.  

Hodel 2011  

As for the cytoplasmic inheritance part. Even though a JxB and BxJ each get half of their genes (DNA inside the cell nucleus) from a Jubaea and Butia, the ones with the Jubaea as the "mom" look more like a Jubaea. The thought is this can be explained by the cytoplasmic DNA (DNA outside the cell nucleus) inheritance that comes from the "mother" plant.  Chloroplasts and mitochondria have their own DNA and get inherited directly from the "mother" in the egg cell.  So all the cytoplasmic DNA in a JxB is from a Jubaea, and all the cytoplasmic DNA in a BxJ is from a Butia. 

The neat part is.....the great great great great great great great grandchild of a JXB (F10 hybrid), even if each time was always pollinated by a Butia, still has only the cytoplasmic DNA of a Jubaea.

It should be interesting to see how some of the back crosses like (BxJ)XJ turn out as far as trunk self cleaning goes. 

 

Thanks for explaining it further!

Here is a pic off of Palmpedia showing Jubaea and an alleged Jubaea x butia...  It appears that it is even more massive than an enormous Jubaea.. but is retaining leaf bases also.

Will be very neat to see how they progress...

 

jb.jpg

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The lows and amount of time below freezing this month did some serious damage... It was totally unprotected.

Jan 2018               Temp. (°F)          

Day        high       avg         low                                        

1              32           26           19                          

2              35           26           17          

3              35           26           17                                          

4              35           30           24                          

5              35           25           15                          

6              31           21           11          

7              33           23           12                          

8              54           34           14                          

9              68           51           34                          

10           65           50           35                          

11             63           59           55

I'll post photos, but most of the plant looks and feels almost freeze dried.  It's still green, but it's not looking promising.  

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Very interested in seeing pictures. There is an exposed, but lightly protected pindo in my area and Im just being negative and assuming its dead. But I hope to be wrong. 

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5 hours ago, Joe NC said:

The lows and amount of time below freezing this month did some serious damage... It was totally unprotected.

Jan 2018               Temp. (°F)          

 

Day        high       avg         low                                        

 

1              32           26           19                          

 

2              35           26           17          

 

3              35           26           17                                          

 

4              35           30           24                          

 

5              35           25           15                          

 

6              31           21           11          

 

7              33           23           12                          

 

8              54           34           14                          

 

9              68           51           34                          

 

10           65           50           35                          

 

11             63           59           55

I'll post photos, but most of the plant looks and feels almost freeze dried.  It's still green, but it's not looking promising.  

That's some really extreme cold :(  I'm assuming that you had several wet days in that stretch as well?  Maybe some snow or freezing rain?  Hope it pulls through!

Jon

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1 hour ago, Fusca said:

That's some really extreme cold :(  I'm assuming that you had several wet days in that stretch as well?  Maybe some snow or freezing rain?  Hope it pulls through!

Jon

5a52b56fcfb6f_IMAG0509(2).thumb.jpg.1410

Rain then freezing rain starting on the afternoon of the 3rd, which turned into snow that night.  Nice wet crowns, then nearly a week below freezing with snow on the ground the whole time.  There was ice on the tidal creeks around here and enough ice on retention ponds to skate on (not that anybody was out on the ice except for this dumb yankee transplant) .  Maybe the only good news from the snow cover is that it insulated the ground and kept the ground from freezing.    

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OUCH!

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Yankee transplants!! We have an over abundance of those here lol. Ruined the culture in the Piedmont and tidewater regions....

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22 hours ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

Yankee transplants!! We have an over abundance of those here lol. Ruined the culture in the Piedmont and tidewater regions....

Haha.  Apparently calling someone Yankee is subjective depending on how south you live, and doesn't have much to do with the Mason-Dixon line.  People here always think I'm originally from Maryland, when I say Mass. they say they knew it was from one of the Yankee states that started with M.

On 1/11/2018, 1:56:35, mdsonofthesouth said:

Very interested in seeing pictures. There is an exposed, but lightly protected pindo in my area and Im just being negative and assuming its dead. But I hope to be wrong. 

Not as much damage as I was expecting to show up, well see how it looks once the weather really warms.

 

IMAG0528.thumb.jpg.a67fadcc135b56e15780b

Not looking as obviously damaged as a pure Butia nearby that is a similar size, but most of the new growth is looks dried and folded in.

 

IMAG0531.thumb.jpg.8036ba14d626aebb21d38 

Damage to the ends of the older growth.

 

IMAG0542.thumb.jpg.8e63eb885bd178ea8a756

The spears looking crispy, but still holding strong.  

 

IMAG0527.jpg.ef1d25e305018f267fd600f7f3b

The nearby pure Butia for comparison.

 

IMAG0540.jpg.25015d96d6bce459c70b5dfcb94

Lost one completely emerged frond and all of the other incompletely emerged leaves.

 

IMAG0541.thumb.jpg.d5e926f6bab85837816d1

Looking pretty sad as of yesterday, put some peroxide in there, and a little foil cap to hopefully keep any future rain/ice out of the gaping hole where the spears were.

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Yeah around the DMV it really depends on where you're at. In my old town and where I used to work in NOVA most folks though it was northeast, but crossing the Delaware memorial bridge is the border to the northeast in my books as the culture shock and change is stark after that bridge. But get out where I am and you'll see rebel flags and lots of front porch sitting, yall is used and when someone says "Bless your heart" (like my grandparents used to say to me all the time lol) its not a complement! Honestly its all in where you're at in the DMV. I for one have had family in Virginia since Jamestown, and they started moving up to Howard County, PG county and tidewater from the 1860s up til the 1950s. My grandparents are the first generation of my family to start the conversion of pronouncing the OI in "coin" the more common or northern way, while growing up she called then co - ins. The flip side is my wife is first generation born here, like alot of folks here, and she has FAR different cultural aspects to her and we grew up 30 minutes from each other. Her name for certain objects really show the cultural differences you can easily find in the DMV. While Id love to be 100% southern here for convenience, its neat to see the differences of some transplants...the rude ones can leave though. 

 

I'm pretty sure the Palm near me that has seen 100% of this winter is most likely dead. Sadly the nursery isn't answering in the off season and its gated. Will likely be getting musa basjoo from them. Hope your palm fairs well when it warms, I'm slowly learning about the delay in palm damage and how they like to wait til warm weather is the norm to show you the full situation. I've been doing peroxide on my pulled palms in hopes that it works and I sure hope it works for you too! If this weather is anything, its an indicator that this wont be our last blast of arctic weather. I just feel like feb will be just as bad, but am hopeful for an early spring. Basically going to keep reading @TexasColdHardyPalms posts in the weather section as his predictions this winter may have helped me save some palms...not to mention when he said get ready for cold, sure enough that cold came! 

 

I assume yall are going to have a warm up here soon? I think ours starts today (compared to the freak weather) and will be seeing 50s starting tomorrow hopefully, but again as this winter has shown the forecast can change on a whim!

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1 hour ago, mdsonofthesouth said:

Yeah around the DMV it really depends on where you're at.

Do you live near the Dept. of Motor Vehicles?  :floor:

Friends of mine in Georgia used to call me a yankee since I lived "up north" in East Tennessee!

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11 minutes ago, Fusca said:

Do you live near the Dept. of Motor Vehicles?  :floor:

Friends of mine in Georgia used to call me a yankee since I lived "up north" in East Tennessee!

 

HAHA no thank God! DMV has a few meanings: Delmarva (not mine) or Delaware/Maryland/Virginia. But yeah I have heard that very same arguement from those south of me. My "southern-ness" has been defended by folks in the deep south, but has been "attacked" by yankees or folks up in WV and vice versa! Its a weird contest to me honestly, that I typically dont care to get into. I know who I am and what my roots are B) Oh and most who hear me talk think Im from VA or NC and are puzzled when I say MD.

Edited by mdsonofthesouth
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If someone says "you all" here instead of y'all in my specific area, people assume they are from somewhere else. It is interesting how the U.S. has so many different cultures, but awesome!

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IMAG0548.thumb.jpg.c53a6f1e775f6ae00a41c

Looking really crispy and finally had spear pull.  It lost 4 of the newest emerging leaves.  With that kind of loss, and it's relatively slow growth, it will be lucky to push 2 or three full leaves this year if it recovers.

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Well hope it recovers and next winter is mild for all of us!

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Here is my Jubaea x Butia F3 from the late Merryl Wilcox. Its been planted 9 years now and seems to have inherited more Butia than Jubaea genes

DSC04786.JPG

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Vic, that is a very nice palm. Maybe it was two times back crossed wih butia and had only jubaea as a mother plant in its first generation.

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Yes, i think you are right Marcel. 

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Hi Vic,

beautiful palm with nice color .

Can you name for me the Trachycarpus species on the left,magnificent plant.

 

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