Bismarckia Nobilis and Roystonea Regia evolution at 39ºN latitude (Spain)

[Alicante]

All natural, without any kind of protection or special additives or "magic fertilizers", the last one also grown with 100% rain water because has no irrigation, it's in an abandoned field:

There are some roystoneas too , some regia and appears to be a oleracea too. I think it's the northernmost place with a Roystonea, full growing without any cares. 6 years ago when i've registered in this forum, in my first thread I think it was, I confunded roystoneas with cocos nucifera (I was young ok ) and in 2009 they had a worse aspect than now. They were about 75% healthy, but now they are 100% and growing up. It's a pity that I can't enter in that space, that was a farm which was growing palm trees for sell, but I think that they went bankrupt and they moved in the terrain near to the store all the palms they had and they remained there. Now, the terrain is fenced so I can't entry to take closer photos of the Roystoneas

2009 photo of them:

2015: (look behind all of those archontophoenixes, some of the big ones are mixed with syagrus, but they are the same as the ones from 2009 photos)

They are all planted in a pot so their growing is lacked by that, they have been there at least for 8 years, and they were always in the pot. The farm has closed but they are still on pots. No winter protection, nothing, I've been passing near here during all seasons and I can ensure that they are there always. Winter temperatures (from December to March) in normal average are 17-21/7-12.

[Alicante]

Also the evolution from well drained Archontophoenixes and Raveneas (and at the end maybe a coconut ? )

And what is this ? This is veeeery lookalike to a coconut: maybe a hybrid?

You can look that is the single palm with a bit of leaf damage. Even roystoneas ain't got any kind of damage.

EDIT: Sorry for the bad quality of some photos, they look like blurred in some parts. Street View errors

Edited August 25, 2015 by pRoeZa*

[Josh-O]

[Phoenikakias]

Remarkable how those neglected Bizzies escaped an attack by rpw, which seems to attack them preferably as is the case with the CIDP's.

[Alicante]

Remarkable how those neglected Bizzies escaped an attack by rpw, which seems to attack them preferably as is the case with the CIDP's.

yep, sadly hundreds of very old CIDPs died, and in very special places too. Like the one close to my house which was almost 20m/65 ft . What do you think about this palm ? It's a Coconut??

[Stelios]

It could be a coconut. The photo is not very clear but I think is Parajubaea.

[DiegoGM]

I dont think that this plam was a coconut. this palms are very sensitive to low temperatures and even an only frost could kill it for sure. I know that in the south are not many freezes but somatimes it occurs. Probably it is a parajubea torallyi or cocoides

[SouthSeaNate]

Yes looks like a Parajubaea, definitely not a coconut

[Phoenikakias]

How about some pictures of Hyophorbe growing outdoors? I know it is possible there as is also in Cyprus. I have also observed Hyophorbe young plants growing on the street in pots in front of stores in Sevilla!

[Phoenikakias]

How about some pictures of Hyophorbe growing outdoors? I know it is possible there as is also in Cyprus. I have also observed Hyophorbe young plants growing on the street in pots in front of stores in Sevilla!

[Alicante]

I dont think that this plam was a coconut. this palms are very sensitive to low temperatures and even an only frost could kill it for sure. I know that in the south are not many freezes but somatimes it occurs. Probably it is a parajubea torallyi or cocoides

Hello, here is a "freeze-less" zone, look at the climate chart from here: (the temperatures are for the last 3 years)

But there is not recorded any temperature under 0ºC from at least 25 years ago.

The last time it occured a freeze, it was a very light freeze and it was before I was born. Alicante city for example (90km from here at south) only registered 2 freezes from 1935 to 2015.

Also this was the aspect of a Cocos Nucifera after passing the entire winter outdoors in Valencia city, and Valencia city is quite colder during winters:

Remember that in Newport was a coconut for several years. This climate is very similar to Newport on winters but the summers are a lot hotter, so maybe with a bit of protection during winters it could be really possible.

The coconuts need the magic 20ºC in high temperatures at the coldest month, here the normal maximum temperatures in the winter are between 17 and 21ºC.

In This May for example the average high temperature was about 30-31ºC, and in April it was about 25ºC, a spring like that would make a coconut grow very very fast if it was good maintained during winters.

Anyways look at how much Bismarckias grow, and Roystoneas are very healthy, that for a 39ºN climate is quite crazy, there are zones at quite less altitude in which Bismarckias die at winters.

Edited August 27, 2015 by pRoeZa*

[Alicante]

How about some pictures of Hyophorbe growing outdoors? I know it is possible there as is also in Cyprus. I have also observed Hyophorbe young plants growing on the street in pots in front of stores in Sevilla!

Here I've seen a couple in front of a hotel. They were planted outdoors.

Those are from the south of Spain:

In this photo is the one from the right:

The one from the middle:

And this one is a Hyophorbe Indica ?

A lot of farms produce them, specially in the south of Spain. Here in the East of Spain some farms in the south of Valencia (near here) and in Alicante produce them too.

Maybe you would like to take a look at this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/112514137@N08/sets/72157640785094273Collection of all kind of palm trees photographed in Málaga.

[Stelios]

Málaga is my wife's and my favorite city in Europe. I remember this Parque de Málaga when we went for holidays there. It's very tropical with lots of palms and tropical plants. La Concepción Botanical garden is very impressive too. I was not very addicted with palms then so didn't make many photos with palms but I remember it was beautiful. In this photo you can see the Royals planted along the passage. They must be massive by now. Is good to see the big collection that can be grown in Málaga.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Stelios

[Alicante]

Málaga is my wife's and my favorite city in Europe. I remember this Parque de Málaga when we went for holidays there. It's very tropical with lots of palms and tropical plants. La Concepción Botanical garden is very impressive too. I was not very addicted with palms then so didn't make many photos with palms but I remember it was beautiful. In this photo you can see the Royals planted along the passage. They must be massive by now. Is good to see the big collection that can be grown in Málaga.

OMG in what year was that? Those photos are at least 2 years old:

They know how to take advantage of the climate in Malaga. I wish in my zone was the same too; well, those years they are planting a lot of new species like Bismarckias, various types of Archontophoenixes, Raveneas, Howeas, Parajubaeas, Dypsis etc... but it's still too low for the amount of palms they can plant. In Málaga they really do a good job with palm trees:

[Stelios]

We were there in 2009 when I took this photo.

[Phoenikakias]

For the european standards this landscape is beyond competition! Practically Malaga is at a latitude that is included in the NoCa division, but I doubt if any place there can grow all those palms. In fact even in the palmy Shangri-La of SoCa a Latania or a Dictyosperma present some challenge...

[Pal Meir]

30 years ago Málaga was dominated only by tall Washingtonia robustas besides Phoenix dactylifera and Ph. sylvestris:

[Mike in Nelson]

I dont think that this plam was a coconut. this palms are very sensitive to low temperatures and even an only frost could kill it for sure. I know that in the south are not many freezes but somatimes it occurs. Probably it is a parajubea torallyi or cocoides

Hello, here is a "freeze-less" zone, look at the climate chart from here: (the temperatures are for the last 3 years)

But there is not recorded any temperature under 0ºC from at least 25 years ago.

The last time it occured a freeze, it was a very light freeze and it was before I was born. Alicante city for example (90km from here at south) only registered 2 freezes from 1935 to 2015.

Also this was the aspect of a Cocos Nucifera after passing the entire winter outdoors in Valencia city, and Valencia city is quite colder during winters:

Remember that in Newport was a coconut for several years. This climate is very similar to Newport on winters but the summers are a lot hotter, so maybe with a bit of protection during winters it could be really possible.

The coconuts need the magic 20ºC in high temperatures at the coldest month, here the normal maximum temperatures in the winter are between 17 and 21ºC.

In This May for example the average high temperature was about 30-31ºC, and in April it was about 25ºC, a spring like that would make a coconut grow very very fast if it was good maintained during winters.

Anyways look at how much Bismarckias grow, and Roystoneas are very healthy, that for a 39ºN climate is quite crazy, there are zones at quite less altitude in which Bismarckias die at winters.

The climate stats look suspect to me. I doubt anywhere at 39 latitude would have a mean temp of 20c.

[Cluster]

The data is from an amateur weather station in wunderground, so there will be most likely some increased heat compared to an official station (if they had them there) also the data is only from the last 3 years, hence why you see such high temperatures. Nonetheless it is indeed a warm zone and if you look at the palms growing there it is amazing.

[Cluster]

Wish the portuguese meteo was as good as the spanish one! For the ones interested to see the various climate charts around the Spanish coast: http://www.aemet.es/es/serviciosclimaticos/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos

Very easy to use:)

Edited August 28, 2015 by Cluster

[SouthSeaNate]

Climate averages are taken from 30 years of data, not 3

[Mike in Nelson]

The data is from an amateur weather station in wunderground, so there will be most likely some increased heat compared to an official station (if they had them there) also the data is only from the last 3 years, hence why you see such high temperatures. Nonetheless it is indeed a warm zone and if you look at the palms growing there it is amazing.

Yes I'm sure it is a microclimate but the mean annual temperature would not be anywhere near 20c. Brisbane, Australia has a mean annual temp of approximately 20.5c and is at latitude 27.

[Phoenikakias]

But you see what's growing there, for many of those palms a frost free climate alone will not suffice, otherwise they would grow already in southern France...

[Cikas]

The data is from an amateur weather station in wunderground, so there will be most likely some increased heat compared to an official station (if they had them there) also the data is only from the last 3 years, hence why you see such high temperatures. Nonetheless it is indeed a warm zone and if you look at the palms growing there it is amazing.

Yes I'm sure it is a microclimate but the mean annual temperature would not be anywhere near 20c. Brisbane, Australia has a mean annual temp of approximately 20.5c and is at latitude 27.

Europe is not the same as Australia. Europe is a very warm continent for its latitude. Much warmer than Asia and North America on the same latitude.

Even here where I live mean anual temperature is around 18c, at latitude 42.

Southern Spain can have mean anual temperature 20c.

This is from Almeria airport station. It is not 20c, but very close.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Cikas

[Cluster]

While I agree that we can have high temperatures for our latitude we don't have 20 mean temperature in continental Europe at 39 latitude (and probably in all continental). The warmest official weather stations from Spain are from Almeria and Seville, (19,1 and 19,2) from the 81-2010 normals according to AEMET: http://www.aemet.es/es/serviciosclimaticos/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos. Both these places are way under 39, Almeria is at 36,5 and Seville 37,2 degrees.

Dubrovnik is also not 18 more like 16.6 in the 71-2000 normals which would put it nearly 17 c if they had values for the 81-2010 normals : http://klima.hr/k1/k1_2/dubrovnik.pdf

If we compare apples to oranges we can't compare different climates, using official data from the same period tries to mitigate such disparities.

Europe is warm for its latitude but not that warm, having said that it is impressive how tropical like southern Spain can be and the variety of palms and trees one can found there.

Look forward to seeing more palms from southern Spain

Edited August 28, 2015 by Cluster

[Cikas]

While I agree that we can have high temperatures for our latitude we don't have 20 mean temperature in continental Europe at 39 latitude (and probably in all continental). The warmest official weather stations from Spain are from Almeria and Seville, (19,1 and 19,2) from the 81-2010 normals according to AEMET: http://www.aemet.es/es/serviciosclimaticos/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos. Both these places are way under 39, Almeria is at 36,5 and Seville 37,2 degrees.

Dubrovnik is also not 18 more like 16.6 in the 71-2000 normals which would put it nearly 17 c if they had values for the 81-2010 normals : http://klima.hr/k1/k1_2/dubrovnik.pdf

If we compare apples to oranges we can't compare different climates, using official data from the same period tries to mitigate such disparities.

Europe is warm for its latitude but not that warm, having said that it is impressive how tropical like southern Spain can be and the variety of palms and trees one can found there.

Look forward to seeing more palms from southern Spain

Climate change.

In the last decade it is around 18c.

Last 5 years where like this.

I agree that every continent has different climate. But Europe is much warmer on the same latitude than any other continent. Temperatures like this at 42N at any other continent are impossible. So some places in Europe with lower latitude should be even warmer.

Whole coastal Mediterranean Europe has the potential to grow much more diverse plants than those that are commonly planted. Plants that can not grow at any other place in the world on our latitude. As we can see in the case of southern Spain.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Cikas

[Cluster]

Climate averages are taken from 30 years of data, not 3

That is my point, but wikipedia decided to get data from an amateur weather station^^.

[Cluster]

Well I do not know how accurate those records are (and if they are an EMA or RUEMA stations) and what source and even if they were official a climate is measure over a period of 30 years not 5. We are comparing Apples to Oranges. An official climate chart also tries to mitigate the heat island effect so the stations are put in strategic places (or should according to WMO) to help in that regard. I can tell you for example in Lisbon our meteo has a station that you see in wikipedia climate charts, but it also has a downtown station which is 1-1,5 degrees warmer if I recall correctly. Despite being way warmer it is not used to define Lisbon official climate, it is useful, however, to understand the increased heat island effect in that part of the town. Like I said Apples to Oranges^^

Lisbon is slightly warmer than Dubrovnik, but its 81-2010 normals put it at 17,5 c only. This makes it around 0,6 degrees warmer or so than Dubrovnik in the same period given to us by the official records for that period.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Cluster

[Cikas]

These are official data from government station in Gorica, Dubrovnik.

Climate here is warmer and warmer every decade. I agree that 30 years data is more accurate. But we need to wait for 81-2010 normals, they are not released yet officially. But temperatures in that 30 years period will be much higher.

Spain temperatures are also much higher in the last decade.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Cikas

[Cluster]

Will be higher but won't increase more than they increase in western Europe, the increment should be about the same. The standard gains every decade are 0,2-0,4 degrees, give or take. Yap I agree Spain is getting very warm lately, we will see how the climate evolves during the next years:). Not so far away we will see the 91-2020 normals!

Edited August 28, 2015 by Cluster

[Phoenikakias]

Does not mean to me importantly those average temps, I give importance on the contrary to DAILY CURVE of temperature fluctuation... The more linear the curve on the daily upper temps stays, the better for palms this climate.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Phoenikakias

[Pal Meir]

I agree: The constancy of a warm level is more important for most palms (and plants): It is much better to have 25°C by day and 15°C at night than 35°C and 5°C, both resulting in an average of 20°C. Fluctuation from very high to low is not good at all. – In Germany we had very warm temperatures over +20°C in January 2012, and the Trachycarpus outdoors began to grow thinking spring has come. But in the following February the temps sank to -15°C and lower, lasting with freezes until April. This fluctuation from very warm to very cold had killed even most Trachys during that winter.

[Alicante]

I dont think that this plam was a coconut. this palms are very sensitive to low temperatures and even an only frost could kill it for sure. I know that in the south are not many freezes but somatimes it occurs. Probably it is a parajubea torallyi or cocoides

Hello, here is a "freeze-less" zone, look at the climate chart from here: (the temperatures are for the last 3 years)

But there is not recorded any temperature under 0ºC from at least 25 years ago.

The last time it occured a freeze, it was a very light freeze and it was before I was born. Alicante city for example (90km from here at south) only registered 2 freezes from 1935 to 2015.

Also this was the aspect of a Cocos Nucifera after passing the entire winter outdoors in Valencia city, and Valencia city is quite colder during winters:

Remember that in Newport was a coconut for several years. This climate is very similar to Newport on winters but the summers are a lot hotter, so maybe with a bit of protection during winters it could be really possible.

The coconuts need the magic 20ºC in high temperatures at the coldest month, here the normal maximum temperatures in the winter are between 17 and 21ºC.

In This May for example the average high temperature was about 30-31ºC, and in April it was about 25ºC, a spring like that would make a coconut grow very very fast if it was good maintained during winters.

Anyways look at how much Bismarckias grow, and Roystoneas are very healthy, that for a 39ºN climate is quite crazy, there are zones at quite less altitude in which Bismarckias die at winters.

The climate stats look suspect to me. I doubt anywhere at 39 latitude would have a mean temp of 20c.

lol the official station of Valencia at almost 40ºN shows an average temperature of 18.6ºC for the last 11 years

Did you see the Roystoneas? Did you see how those Bizzies grow? Did you still don't believe that that is true? I know in which climate I live, and I can ensure you that I am very surpressed.

i am also surpressed of some people from this thread talking like they know something about here my friend has a very good station and he recorded all the averages from 2001 to today. I think that 14 years is enough huh?

I will post them, it's his station but it's quite professional; and I've seen "official" weather stations less professional than his one. And also, the average mean temperature is above 19ºC, of course

Dubrovnik at 42ºN has about 17.5ºC average, do you know another place at 42ºN with that crazy annual temperature? A lot of places from the East Coast of US have 17.5-18ºC of average and they are at 30-31ºN lol

[Alicante]

And also don't underestimate the climate of Spain, the coast of Spain is quite warmer than the entire US coast at the same latitude; to go to a similar climate you have to go to 30-33ºN latitude on the Pacific Coast of the US, which has the same climate as 37-40ºN latitude in Spain. Still don't believe? Ok, then I will show you this Roystonea at 41ºN in Tarragona Spain

This is the aspect of the palm after a hard 2010/11 winter. As you can see the photo was taken on February exactly after December and January which are the coldest months.

Look at that Roystonea; all of those years has grown like that. Exactly latitude 41°3′″N 1°3′″E . Tell me where in the US you can find a Roystonea at 41ºN ?

[Alicante]

While I agree that we can have high temperatures for our latitude we don't have 20 mean temperature in continental Europe at 39 latitude (and probably in all continental). The warmest official weather stations from Spain are from Almeria and Seville, (19,1 and 19,2) from the 81-2010 normals according to AEMET: http://www.aemet.es/es/serviciosclimaticos/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos. Both these places are way under 39, Almeria is at 36,5 and Seville 37,2 degrees.

Dubrovnik is also not 18 more like 16.6 in the 71-2000 normals which would put it nearly 17 c if they had values for the 81-2010 normals : http://klima.hr/k1/k1_2/dubrovnik.pdf

If we compare apples to oranges we can't compare different climates, using official data from the same period tries to mitigate such disparities.

Europe is warm for its latitude but not that warm, having said that it is impressive how tropical like southern Spain can be and the variety of palms and trees one can found there.

Look forward to seeing more palms from southern Spain

You were mad at me when I was saying this to you some months ago, but now you say it to Cikas. As happens with Madeira in which the older climate charts were colder, the same happens in Dubrovnik and practically in all Spain. The climate is warmer than what it shows on the climate charts. As @Cikas shown me, the climate in Dubrovnik is not as cold as the official station registers.

The latitude of the official station of Valencia is: 39° 28' 50'' N : http://www.aemet.es/es/serviciosclimaticos/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos?l=8416&k=val and the average temperature is 18.3ºC, perhaps for the last 11 years it's 18.6ºC (most professional station for the 3rd most important city of Spain; it's antenna is like about 10 meters height; if someone says that "it's a amateur station" )

Also, we can go to Palma de Mallorca. which latitude is: 39° 33' 12'' N http://www.aemet.es/es/serviciosclimaticos/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos?l=B228&k=bal and the mean annual average temperature is 18.2ºC ; also in the last 10 years that average is about 19ºC. As you can see the freezing days are 0.0 . Tell me a single place in the world at 39ºN 33' which has 0 freeze records in the last 35 years.

Almeria is the only place in continental Europe which never registered any freezing, even a light one. In fact, in the last century the lowest temperature recorded was 0.2ºC, in the coldest wave of the history of Spain when Alicante arrived to -3ºC, in Almeria was 2ºC. There are coastal towns near Cabo de Gata (most arid place on Europe, about 80mm rain per year) in which the temperature has never seen under 1.3ºC.

Edited August 29, 2015 by pRoeZa*

[Cluster]

Maybe I am not being clear, what I said is you can't compare 71-2000 with 81-2010 normals. I said that Dubrovnik only has normals for 71-2000 so it is hard to compare with 81-2010 normals! However the 71-2000 gives 16,6 mean temperature for Dubrovnik only and I said it is probably around 17c for the 81-2010 period since in average the climate is warming up around 0,2-0,4 c per decade in europe! Lisbon was 16,8 in 61-90 and for the 81-2010 it is 17,5. Lisbon is warmer than Dubrovnik and got to 17,5 in the 81-2010 normals.

Of course you could say that Lisbon is probably 18c+ the last 10 years, but then everyone else has also gotten warmer in this period of time so you can't use their old data!, that is why we use normals . Amateur weather stations are almost always warmer than official stations for many reasons I have explained before and is off topic to your thread. I can find you amateur stations in Lisbon way warmer as well, just remember that when we compare a climate 30 years ago it will be colder compared to data from today even if the station is the same. I hope this is clear enough. I am also not the only one pointing out this in this thread.

I do not know why you are calling Madeira to your thread in any case to be clear Madeira situation is more complicated as the station in Funchal changed spot during the years. Even if it did not change place you should add 0,3 degrees to the 71-2000 normals if you compare it to 81-2010 that was my only point, we compare apples to apples not apples to oranges:).

Also I do not understand why you are asking me if I know places that are this warm at this latitude as I agree with you, I said Europe is quite warm for its latitude. The warmest official places in continental Europe are probably Almeria and Seville.

Ps:Proeza I have found data (from an old newspaper) with the normals form the first station in Funchal for the period of 31-60! It was as warm as the normals from the 71-2000 period! That old station was in a much lower altitude and more protected, hence why it was warmer^^

Edited August 29, 2015 by Cluster

[Alicante]

The data is from an amateur weather station in wunderground, so there will be most likely some increased heat compared to an official station (if they had them there) also the data is only from the last 3 years, hence why you see such high temperatures. Nonetheless it is indeed a warm zone and if you look at the palms growing there it is amazing.

Yes I'm sure it is a microclimate but the mean annual temperature would not be anywhere near 20c. Brisbane, Australia has a mean annual temp of approximately 20.5c and is at latitude 27.

Look at this buddy:

This is Ceuta's climate, located at 35º 53'N is exactly as the same position as Malta, but it has the warmer winters of all Europe. Although geographically it's from Africa, it's at the same latitude as Malta which is Europe too.

San Diego: (32º 42'N)

Ensenada, Baja California (31º 51'N)

Coffs Harbour, New South Wales, AU (30º 18'S)

At 35ºN it's a freeze-less zone while at 30ºN occured some freezes in the history. In Ceuta you can grow up practically all species of palm trees, specially those who need 11b hardiness zones.

As you can see Ceuta's climate at 35º 53'N is warmer than San Diego located at 32ºN; also it's warmer than Ensenada, Mexico located at 31ºN and also it's warmer than Vicente Guerrero - San Quintin zone located at 30ºN but very close to 29ºN. In the south latitude the same; as you can see is warmer than Coffs Harbour which is located at 30ºS. I've checked the climate of PortMcQuarie and Sydney and happens the same; although those 2 locations are more in the south. The Mediterranean basin is quite warm, specially on Spain and Greece and Cyprus. Cyprus also is very hot for the latitude; at 35ºN Nicosia it has an average of maximums in July of 37ºC/98.6ºF

[Cluster]

Hello Proeza do you have any pictures of Euterpes in southern Spain and if so which species? Thanks!

Edited August 30, 2015 by Cluster

[Alicante]

Hello Proeza do you have any pictures of Euterpes in southern Spain and if so which species? Thanks!

No mate I don't have any; i'm sure they would be in Málaga even in my zone here at 38º 58'N, but they must be on private propierty.

I know it because some years ago I've posted in this forum talking about Euterpes in a farm near my city, and there is still farms who grow it.

Here all the farms have the palms in pots but most of farms have only outdoor zones so the palms maintain outdoors for the entire year. I would like too to see the aspect of an Euterpes here.

[SouthSeaNate]

That climate data for Ceuta is incorrect, according to the AEMET website. Also the data only goes back to 2003, so the averages on their website only cover 7 years from 2003 to 2010...

http://www.aemet.es/es/serviciosclimaticos/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos?l=5000C&k=ceu