Houston, New Orleans, Jacksonville Climate

[Ed in Houston]

The thread detailing Royal Palms growing in Jacksonville made me wonder how Jacksonville, New Orleans and Houston compared in their climates. There were a few Royals growing around Houston up until the cold spell of 2010 hit when Hobby Apt. recorded 21F.

Comparing the climates using this resource,

http://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/PHZMWeb/InteractiveMap.aspx

showed the following average temps for the years of 1976-2005.

Jacksonville Mayport Navel Station - 24.8F

Jacksonville Downtown - 23.5F

Jacksonville Craig Apt - 23.6F

Jacksonville Royal palms off Goodby's Creek- 23.7F

New Orleans near downtown - 25.5F

Houston near downtown - 24.5F

Houston Hobby - 24.2F

I calculated the average temps at Houston Hobby from 1990 -2015 using this resource

http://weather-warehouse.com/WeatherHistory/PastWeatherData_HoustonWilliamPHobbyArpt_Houston_TX_January.html

and the average was 28.3F, an increase of about 4 degrees since the colder years of the late 1970s and 1980s were exclude. I expect that if one did the same for Jacksonville and New Orleans the average would also come up about 4 degrees for the 1990- 2015 period and so I surmise that Jacksonville New Orleans and Houston have had a 9b climate for the past 25 years with New Orleans approaching 10a.

It should be noted that the average does not give insight into the standard deviation, that is the probability of how far from average the temp may vary. A 10a climate that has 20F one year and 40F the next does not mean that one can grow 10a palms! Much of Florida likely has a lower standard deviation than Louisiana and Texas, a more consistent climate.

Jacksonville Craig Airport recorded 20 in 2003, and 23 in 2009 and 2010. New Orleans Lake front Airport recorded 23F in 2010. Does this mean that the Jacksonville Royals were protected to survive the recent 20F, and the two 23sF? Could the Royals have survived the 2009 and 2010 freezes of 23F w/o protection. Are there any Royals in New Orleans? I remember on a 2011 trip to New Orleans seeing a 20 foot trunked Majesty palm just west of downtown.

Ed in Houston

[Xerarch]

I was thinking about this as well while reading the royal palms in Jacksoville thread, I was thinking of reminding everyone that there are still large Royals surviving near Houston. There are some great ones on Galveston that defoliated but recovered

[Sandy Loam]

Hello Ed-in-Houston. When you say "average temps for the years of 1976-2005," I assume that you mean "average extreme low temperature for each of those years," right?

This is an interesting topic, but unfortunately I have nothing to contribute about royal palms in New Orleans or Houston. I may be able to add some observations about Jacksonville as the discussion continues though.

[palmsOrl]

While it is certainly conceivable for a percentage of large trunking Roystonea regia to survive low 20s (21-23F), I would guess those royals in South Jax haven't seen below 24-25F during the time they have existed there, due to whatever micro climate (must) exist there. My large royals were TOTALLY defoliated by 25F here in 2010, and they may have still pulled through from a degree or two lower? But they sure didn't look like they would have taken any worse. It is splitting hairs, but my general impression from knowledge gained over the years is that the absolute lowest temp tolerance of mature Roystonea regia is 22-23F, with most dying at 24F and total defoliation at 25-26F. Severe cosmetic damage 27-29F (easily grown out of), and mild to moderate defoliation at 30-31F temps. This is not considering the effects of the presence of frost, which I assume could moderately defoliate a mature tree covered in frost at a temp of 33-35F?

[palmsOrl]

Also, average extreme annual lows at the reporting stations in Orlando have also seen an increase on the order of that you are noting/suggesting in JAX, New Orleans and Houston. The average low in Orlando used to easily be 27-28F, and now it is around 31F for the Orlando International Airport and 33-34F for the Executive Airport near downtown. The lows in the suburbs I have lived in over the past 10 years, excluding 2010, have averaged 30-32F for the lowest annual low. We are now a cold 10a, since multi-decadal fluctuations in climate may come and go (leading to colder and milder periods) but the ever-present and expanding urban heat island is here to stay, at least in our foreseeable future. So even when another cold period, like the 1980s affects us again, add several degrees (4-5 F easily) to the forecast in the urban area versus what would be expected in surrounding areas on cold nights (not even surrounding cold pockets, just the surrounding areas in general).

I feel, for example, that 2010 was a freeze of the magnitude of one of the famous 80s freezes in the Orlando area, and that low 20s would have been inevitable without all the development. The lowest lows are what appear to be affected most by the urban heat island affect it seems. This meant 25F in my suburban location instead of (20F-23F), and it saved my 10a palms (barely). I'll take it!

[Tropicdoc]

All I can add is.... I have never seen a Royal in New Orleans, and I lived there. There are a few nice royals (30-40 ft) on Galveston, and I lived there. There are some trunking Majesty palms in New Orleans. In New Orleans, there are large areas in the dense part of the city that are almost completely under live oak canopy. They hold in the heat from the cement, bringing the temp up 2-3 degrees. French Quarter courtyards are definitely 9b. Couple that with a large body of water to the North, and New Orleans is 4-5 degreed warmer than me, even though I am 60 miles to its Southwest!

[_Keith]

All I can add is.... I have never seen a Royal in New Orleans, and I lived there. There are a few nice royals (30-40 ft) on Galveston, and I lived there. There are some trunking Majesty palms in New Orleans. In New Orleans, there are large areas in the dense part of the city that are almost completely under live oak canopy. They hold in the heat from the cement, bringing the temp up 2-3 degrees. French Quarter courtyards are definitely 9b. Couple that with a large body of water to the North, and New Orleans is 4-5 degreed warmer than me, even though I am 60 miles to its Southwest!

Same here, and almost the same in Houston. No reason to grow one, it would just look like poop even if one did manage to keep it alive.

[Sandy Loam]

The comparison between majesty palms and royal palms might not be a good one. I wouldn't risk growing a royal palm anywhere north of Orlando. However, I know of two majesty palms in Tallahassee that must have seen single digits and they still bounce back every summer. They will look terrible every winter, but they always seem to bounce back.

[Ed in Houston]

There were some royal palms that survived in the Houston area from the 2010 freeze but survivors are probably limited to Galveston.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/27738-the-northernmost-royal-palms-on-the-gulf-coast/

Ed in Houston

[mnorell]

Of the three cities, New Orleans has by far the most dependably mild climate in winter. This is solely due to the presence of Lake Pontchartrain (and Lake Maurepas as well), which protects the city during periods of freezing northern air masses. Neither Houston nor Jacksonville enjoy this huge climate-bumper. Perhaps Jacksonville Beach could claim a milder climate in certain ways, but Jacksonville proper is still subject to north and northwest intrusions and a typically Deep South schizophrenic temperature-regime, and Houston is of course open on all sides facing the Arctic. In the French Quarter of New Orleans there are big Plumeria trees behind courtyard walls, and lots of tropical palms (such as a few Dypsis lutescens) and spectacular shrubs and vines (Allamanda, et al) that enjoy their intense urban heat-island plus the protection of Pontchartrain. However, if conditions are right, it can be blisteringly cold, as it was in 1962 and 1989. All Washingtonia and the majority of other palms were wiped out then, with only Sabal, Rhapis (half-hardy and a slow return at that), Rhapidophyllum, a few sturdy Livistona chinensis or Butia specimens, plus maybe a few other hardy species surviving the 11F or so that was recorded in that 3+ day of continuous below-freezing temps in 1989 (and I believe about 13F in 1962). IAH recorded 7F in the 1989 event. Royals are absolutely out of the question for any of these cities unless anyone is foolhardy enough to plant a gigantic species such as that one and let it grow for five mild years or more, and then have to take down the massive carcass. And yes, there are beautiful, large Ravenea rivularis all around New Orleans, some with very large trunks, thanks to broad availability in the big-box stores. They are able to tolerate a decent freeze (mid-20s) if the surrounding periods are mild and above freezing. But the idea that they could survive single digits is nothing but a pipe-dream. I have seen them planted out in Natchez, Mississippi and they barely return after a "typical" winter with a low of about 23F and at least 12-18 hours below freezing in such a year. Ultimately they cark it after a couple of years there. So if they are in Tallahassee as stated above, they are in one of the (many) mild, air-drained microclimates there that see nothing like single digits, despite what weather sources will tell you about that city due to the readings of their cold-spot airport.

[Tropicdoc]

Yes big difference between galveston and Houston. Galveston, like New Orleans has a nice large body of water to the north. New Orleans has a bigger one, although not a coastal city. IMO if I still lived in galveston I'd give beccariophoenix a try in a microclimate. But sadly I now live in fairly unprotected 9a. Grand isle to my south can probably support some 9b palms because of how it sits south of barataria bay.

[Tropicdoc]

Just saw this majesty 1 street over fromy house. I never noticed it before. It looks pretty old and a little stressed but alive!

[Tropicdoc]

Sorry needs flippage

[Sandy Loam]

See the majesty palms at the bottom of this thread below, surviving in a climate colder than New Orleans, Houston or Jacksonville:

www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/13879-majesty-palm-ravenea-rivularis/?fromsearch=1

[palmsOrl]

I think majesty palms are more cold hardy than royals, but I would still hesitate to classify them as a solid 9b palm. Mine survived 2010 with only about 50% defoliation from 25F, so maybe mature, well cared for specimens are okay in warmer 9b climates. Besides, they are cheap, plentiful and reasonably good looking and tropical looking palms, so why not give it a try anywhere near the Gulf Coast or on the FL Peninsula? I recently picked up a healthy triple trunk about 3' tall from the Walmart clearance rack for $3.77. I'd probably put one in the ground if I lived in Savannah, Georgia in a really sheltered microclimate and cover it for mid 20s and lower.

[AnTonY]

Considering that Houston has no body of water moderating it from the cold blast trajectories (Galveston Bay is east of the city), I find it rather strange that the averages are able to match up quite closely with New Orleans, which has a lake above it. The UHI in Houston must be strangely strong then, considering that the city is rather sprawled out, with not much dense infill core development until recent times.

[Ed in Houston]

1 hour ago, AnTonY said:

Considering that Houston has no body of water moderating it from the cold blast trajectories (Galveston Bay is east of the city), I find it rather strange that the averages are able to match up quite closely with New Orleans, which has a lake above it. The UHI in Houston must be strangely strong then, considering that the city is rather sprawled out, with not much dense infill core development until recent times.

Yes, Houston has a metro population of 6.5 million (2010) compared to N.O. with 1.1 million.  Also Houston is growing rapidly and projected to be 7.5 million in 3 years only behind N.Y. and L.A.

Ed in Houston

 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Ed,

Dallas/Ft Worth is currently the fourth most populated metropolitan area in the US with 7.1M people.  Houston is fifth at 6.6M.

Rank	Metropolitan Statistical Area	2015 Estimate	2010 Census	Change	Encompassing Combined Statistical Area
7000100000000000000♠1	New York-Newark-Jersey City, NY-NJ-PA Metropolitan Statistical Area	20,182,305	19,567,410	7000314244450338600♠+3.14%	New York-Newark, NY-NJ-CT-PA Combined Statistical Area
7000200000000000000♠2	Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area	13,340,068	12,828,837	7000398501438594940♠+3.99%	Los Angeles-Long Beach, CA Combined Statistical Area
7000300000000000000♠3	Chicago-Naperville-Elgin, IL-IN-WI Metropolitan Statistical Area	9,551,031	9,461,105	6999950480942765150♠+0.95%	Chicago-Naperville, IL-IN-WI Combined Statistical Area
7000400000000000000♠4	Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX Metropolitan Statistical Area	7,102,796	6,426,214	7001105284697957460♠+10.53%	Dallas-Fort Worth, TX-OK Combined Statistical Area
7000500000000000000♠5	Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX Metropolitan Statistical Area	6,656,947	5,920,416	7001124405278277740♠+12.44%	Houston-The Woodlands, TX Combined Statistical Area
7000600000000000000♠6	Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV Metropolitan Statistical Area	6,097,684	5,636,232	7000818724282463890♠+8.19%	Washington-Baltimore-Arlington, DC-MD-VA-WV-PA Combined Statistical Area
7000700000000000000♠7	Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD Metropolitan Statistical Area	6,069,875	5,965,343	7000175232170220560♠+1.75%	Philadelphia-Reading-Camden, PA-NJ-DE-MD Combined Statistical Area
7000800000000000000♠8	Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area	6,012,331	5,564,635	7000804537943638710♠+8.05%	Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Port St. Lucie, FL Combined Statistical Area
7000900000000000000♠9	Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Roswell, GA Metropolitan Statistical Area	5,710,795	5,286,728	7000802135082417710♠+8.02%	Atlanta-Sandy Springs, GA Combined Statistical Area
7001100000000000000♠10	Boston-Cambridge-Newton, MA-NH Metropolitan Statistical Area	4,774,321	4,552,402	7000487476721080429♠+4.87%	Boston-Worcester-Providence, MA-RI-NH-CT Combined Statistical Area