The palm garden of pharao Snefru in the necropolis of Dahshur

[Alcibiades]

It is rather rare that my field of study and my love of growing palms connect with each other.

Maybe some of you share my interest in ancient history. The DAI (german arhaeological institut) has excavated a palm garden dating to the reign of pharao Snefru (ca 2600 BCE) in Dahshur in last years excavation campaign. The results are not published in english in detail so far. A short summary of the 2014 campaign in english with some photos can be found here.

https://www.dainst.org/documents/10180/15856/Dahshur+Report+spring+2014.pdf

For those of you who want to know more about the garden and who are able to read german, i recommend Felix Arnolds article in Sokar 29. The magazine can be bought here http://www.verlag-michael-haase.de/ .

I´m relieved to know that even 4600 years ago people were already crazy enough to try to grow exotic plants in an unsuitable climate. I would love to know how they transported mature cypress trees from lebanon into the egyptian desert. All palms, cypress and Ficus sycomorus that were found were planted as mature plants. I guess they had a nursery for exotic plants somewhere in Egypt.

[Kim]

This is fascinating! I followed the first link, and skimmed through to read about the finding of palm roots. Really interesting. I wonder if anyone has done or will do an interpretive picture of the garden as it may have appeared, based on the excavated remains.

[Alcibiades]

Dear Kim,

there are interpretive pictures already made by the archaeologists who wrote about the excavation. Those pictures can be found in the Sokar magazin. I can`t post them for stupid copyright laws though. I still do not understand a copyright for content that is created from research that was financed with tax payers money.

[Yunder Wækraus]

Very cool!

[trioderob]

I have been there - very cool place.

went a few months after 9/11 they were almost giving away airline tickets to Egypt.

have video but its in the old digital video tape format

[Alcibiades]

So we won`t get any pictures? No pun intended.

Ancient gardens are a fascinating topic. Did you know that the Achaemenids called their royal tree gardens and hunting reserves paradeisos? The word has found his way into our modern language thanks to the authors of the Genesis.

Here a picture of one of the most famous garden images of antiquity. The banquet scene of the neoassyrian king Ashurbanipal (645BCE-635BCE) also showing a palm.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?assetId=237000001&objectId=366859&partId=1

[trioderob]

not unless someone wants to convert digital tape for me

nice avatar by the way,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Alcibiades]

I recommend an easy to use digital video converter. I bought one years ago for about 30€ including software. I stored a whole wardrobe full of videotapes on one harddrive. Definetly worth the effort.

[Phoenikakias]

So we won`t get any pictures? No pun intended.

Ancient gardens are a fascinating topic. Did you know that the Achaemenids called their royal tree gardens and hunting reserves paradeisos? The word has found his way into our modern language thanks to the authors of the Genesis.

Here a picture of one of the most famous garden images of antiquity. The banquet scene of the neoassyrian king Ashurbanipal (645BCE-635BCE) also showing a palm.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?assetId=237000001&objectId=366859&partId=1

Actually the word paradeisos is the hellenized ancient persian combination of the words: pairi.daēza meaning an enclosed or fenced patch of earth.

[Pal Meir]

Here a picture of one of the most famous garden images of antiquity. The banquet scene of the neoassyrian king Ashurbanipal (645BCE-635BCE) also showing a palm.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?assetId=237000001&objectId=366859&partId=1

At another thread I posted a link to a very similar photo taken in 1986 in London:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/palmeir/8255282840/in/album-72157632195735795/

[Alcibiades]

So we won`t get any pictures? No pun intended.

Ancient gardens are a fascinating topic. Did you know that the Achaemenids called their royal tree gardens and hunting reserves paradeisos? The word has found his way into our modern language thanks to the authors of the Genesis.

Here a picture of one of the most famous garden images of antiquity. The banquet scene of the neoassyrian king Ashurbanipal (645BCE-635BCE) also showing a palm.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?assetId=237000001&objectId=366859&partId=1

Actually the word paradeisos is the hellenized ancient persian combination of the words: pairi.daēza meaning an enclosed or fenced patch of earth.

Dear Phoenikakias,

actually there is not a singular ancient persian source mentioning the word. A common problem of a lack of local sources in comparison to greek sources. The greek word paradeisos seems to be directly borrowed from the Median form paradaiza. The meaning is still enclosure though.

If you want further information i recommend The Parks and Gardens of the Achaemenid Empire in Christopher Tuplin, Achaemenid studies. An excerpt can be read on google books for free.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Alcibiades

[DoomsDave]

Hmm.

One has to wonder about how the "ancients" moved mature plants. They didn't have cranes (or Ken Johnson) to help them. On the other hand, they were able to move large blocks to build the pyramids, so they undoubtedly had some excellent engineers.

[_Keith]

Hmm.

One has to wonder about how the "ancients" moved mature plants. They didn't have cranes (or Ken Johnson) to help them. On the other hand, they were able to move large blocks to build the pyramids, so they undoubtedly had some excellent engineers.

Well, Tad's old quote about an unending supply of expendable labor comes to mind. And in this case, they didn't even have to pay them substandard wage. Their payment was living to see another day. Most all of man's greatest ancient achievements, and quite a few modern ones came at the expense of many other men who never lived to see its completion. They were used up like cheap rope and tossed out with the trash.

[Alcibiades]

Dear Keith,

the egyptian monuments are not the result of slave labour. Buildings build by slaves do not survive for 5000 years. The best craftsmen of the country were used to build the pyramids. Excavations have already shown that theyre health status and diet was way better than for the average egyptian joe.

[Phoenikakias]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... Although seemingly very risky and superficial to trasfer conclusions and experiences from one historical period to another, HUMAN NATURE IS A CONSTANT at least since the transition to food production, so we all can assume how free a free willing conscription from time to time can be!

[trioderob]

Dear Keith,

the egyptian monuments are not the result of slave labour. Buildings build by slaves do not survive for 5000 years. The best craftsmen of the country were used to build the pyramids. Excavations have already shown that theyre health status and diet was way better than for the average egyptian joe.

from time spent there one thing becames very clear - the work you see in Egypt was not done by slaves.

it was done by people who loved their Pharaoh and believed him to be a Christ figure,

Edited May 27, 2015 by trioderob

[Alcibiades]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... Although seemingly very risky and superficial to trasfer conclusions and experiences from one historical period to another, HUMAN NATURE IS A CONSTANT at least since the transition to food production, so we all can assume how free a free willing conscription from time to time can be!

I would highly doubt that conclusion about a "human nature". You wont be able to define one human nature even for todays humankind. Socio-cultural differences are enormous. To jugde the intrinsic motivation of people from a totally different form of society is very difficult.

At least substandard wages 2000 years before the invention of money was one of the lesser concerns for those workers i guess.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Alcibiades

[Phoenikakias]

Dear Keith,

the egyptian monuments are not the result of slave labour. Buildings build by slaves do not survive for 5000 years. The best craftsmen of the country were used to build the pyramids. Excavations have already shown that theyre health status and diet was way better than for the average egyptian joe.

from time spent there one thing becames very clear - the work you see in Egypt was not done by slaves.

it was done by people who loved their Pharaoh and believed him to be a Christ figure,

Yes, and also the Soviet folk 'loved' nation's father, STALIN! But hey I do not have to go even that back, you just have to watch the expression of adorement of the people for the leadership in North Korea!!

Edited May 27, 2015 by Phoenikakias

[_Keith]

First, my comment was not made in disapproval of any country, culture or achievement. It was just a statement of the way things were and have been over history. And yes, I am aware of the discovery of dozens of buried bodies, from which the assumption was made that the pyramid builders were not slaves. I am also aware of the estimates of requiring 10,000 men to build a pyramid. My assumption is yes, those people in those graves no doubt played a role in building the pyramids. But my assumption is also that the people in those graves did not represent the rank and file of the many thousands who dragged those stones across the sands and wrestled them into position. My suspicion is that the people in those graves represented the construction management. No doubt they worked hard, too, as their remains indicate. And who knows, maybe my assumptions are wrong and every one of those 10,000 men volunteered to die in the desert building a monument and tomb for their leader, century after century. Until someone finds the remains of some quantity of the other 9,000+ men, those will remain my assumptions. And then again, I could be totally wrong. All we have to go on are scare few drawings and writings, no doubt carefully selected to show a vision the leaders wanted to show. As they say, history is written by the victors.

[Phoenikakias]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... Although seemingly very risky and superficial to trasfer conclusions and experiences from one historical period to another, HUMAN NATURE IS A CONSTANT at least since the transition to food production, so we all can assume how free a free willing conscription from time to time can be!

I would highly doubt that conclusion about a "human nature". You wont be able to define one human nature even for todays humankind. Socio-cultural differences are enormous. To jugde the intrinsic motivation of people from a totally different form of society is very difficult.

At least substandard wages 2000 years before the invention of money was one of the lesser concerns for those workers i guess.

Patterns of human behaviour are similar to those of animals with quantitive only differences, indicating and proving the animal origin of humans . Even the situation within primitive, small societies of food collectors is all other than innocent and heavenly as some romantik people want to present it. This has proved the study of tribes in the highlands of New Guinea.

[trioderob]

this was the most insane object I have ever seen in a museum

[Alcibiades]

First, my comment was not made in disapproval of any country, culture or achievement. It was just a statement of the way things were and have been over history. And yes, I am aware of the discovery of dozens of buried bodies, from which the assumption was made that the pyramid builders were not slaves. I am also aware of the estimates of requiring 10,000 men to build a pyramid. My assumption is yes, those people in those graves no doubt played a role in building the pyramids. But my assumption is also that the people in those graves did not represent the rank and file of the many thousands who dragged those stones across the sands and wrestled them into position. My suspicion is that the people in those graves represented the construction management. No doubt they worked hard, too, as their remains indicate. And who knows, maybe my assumptions are wrong and every one of those 10,000 men volunteered to die in the desert building a monument and tomb for their leader, century after century. Until someone finds the remains of some quantity of the other 9,000+ men, those will remain my assumptions. And then again, I could be totally wrong. All we have to go on are scare few drawings and writings, no doubt carefully selected to show a vision the leaders wanted to show. As they say, history is written by the victors.

The dirty jobs like dragging the stones were done by peasants. Maybe this is way to much of topic for PT but you can not jugde the ancient egyptians without knowing details about the religious beliefs of those ancient agricultural societies. The pharao ensured the maat, the divine order, fertility and the prosperity of the community. Jugding the beliefs of those people from our own perspective might be misleading. If Phoenikakias would be correct with his assumption of a general human nature, why did those peasants never revolt in over 2000 years of classical egyptian history? Our own more individualistic societal approach makes it difficult to understand more collective societies.

[trioderob]

best thread ever

this was the view when howard carter opened the tomb for the first time in thousands of years.

it would be a extreme understatement to call it a "find of a lifetime"

it literally does not get any better considering it was the only intact tomb ever found

Edited May 28, 2015 by trioderob

[Alicehunter2000]

Willing volunteers are capable of building great things.