Drought.... how is your community holding up.

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

Even though the media splashes drought across our tv screens, in reality, my city is almost 10 percent ABOVE NORMAL rain for the 2014-2015 season.

July to july , Which is the normal rainy season. One more storm like lat Friday and we will have had a normal rainfall year.

The sierra has little snow, runoff , which is mostly what farmers use seems a bit low.

A drive through the wooded foothills 40 miles away show no effects of a drought. The trees are all leafed out and green and is the fields of grass pasture looking nothing out of ordinary.

Yet the cities are the ones to suffer.

I asked for water at my local Texas Roadhouse.... they told me that they've been told to cut back on drinking water!

Since our water is treated, I can see conserving. But water at the dinner table is sacred.

Jeff

[DoomsDave]

Jeff, lucky you!

In So-Cal, we've been hurting a long while. While we had some rain this past year, it was nowhere close to normal.

All those sprinklers for the ice plant, etc., on the freeway medians were shut off years ago. Only the toughest plants remain, and many are obviously stressed. Most of the ground covers are gone, including ivy. Or at least they appear to be. I suspect with some serious rain, many will come back.

It would not have been so bad if there had been snow pack in the mountains, but there wasn't. Much of our water comes from the Owens River Valley, which gets its water from the high Sierras right nearby.

Los Angeles has been rationing a while now, and it's only a matter of time before it hits the O.C. Haven't heard from my water company yet, but I'm sure I will.

[John Case]

Drought awareness is all the rage up here. The hills are golden (hence 'The Golden State') and every city in my area is offering rebates/credits for those who rip out their lawns (except mine, of course). I am currently composing an article for the local paper on how to manage your landscape in these water/rain-less times. Of course, drought tolerant palms will be prominently featured.....

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

Dave, yea... Socal's situation is often different than mid Cal.

The whole state depends on what happens in a small band of mountains to the east.

I remember one year the snow pack was beautiful, yet valley citys didn't get a normal year... they called it a drought... so it seems we are in a constant lose /lose situation here.

[Mandrew968]

Ain't no drought in my hood. We are already in the rainy season a few weeks ahead of schedule.

Is it really a drought for you guys or is it that too many people live in a desert (chaparral, technically), trying to live like they are in the tropics?..

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

Hmmm , much of California has reasonable rainfall, at least enough to support its population.

What most people don't seem to grasp is that California Grows most of the U.S. Fruit and nut crops and we do it with no rain from May through sept.

Basically we have a storage problem.

[redbeard917]

I asked for water at my local Texas Roadhouse.... they told me that they've been told to cut back on drinking water!

-------------

That is darkly humorous. Sure, their customers are thirsty, but that's nothing compared to the satisfaction that comes from "saving" the state of California 12 whole ounces of water.

There is an odd trend I've been noticing in the environmental movement. Actually, I guess it would fall under the umbrella of "greenwashing". A highly visible but ineffective action is preferred. For example, I used to work at one of the country's largest convention centers. The amount of waste was staggering. Mostly packing materials, but quite often the products businesses brought were not worth shipping back, too. Many dumpsters were filled each day as the show was being prepared. Then after the show, everything was demolished and trashed. But convention-goers saw none of that. But they did see little placards with green leaves on them around the building bragging about their "green" hand soap and such.

I remember reading that the city of New Orleans loses a vast percentage of its treated water through leaky pipes. I'm sure the situation isn't nearly as bad where you are, but I imagine the difference between the amount of treated water lost to leaks, spills, and evaporation is probably about 10 orders of magnitude greater than the amount "lost" to restaurant customers.

Seems like a nuclear power plant with a desalination plant next door would solve most of California's water problems handily, but I'm no expert. Luckily I live in an area where supply is not an issue and the population is still fairly small. Our rainfall does vary quite a bit from year to year. This year has been wet, and the garden is enjoying it. We had a few dry years recently. Nothing serious, but with the heat, there was a lot of dragging the hose around just to keep newer, less established plants alive.

[redbeard917]

I should add that people who care about their lawns were much more distressed about the drought than I was. Another issue was the opening of sinkholes when groundwater subsided.

[Mandrew968]

Hmmm , much of California has reasonable rainfall, at least enough to support its population.

Hmm. That's not what I heard on NPR when they interviewed an Australian expert on water resources... she said it is all to so with groundwater and how California doesn't respect the importance of it, nor do they pay attention to the cause and effect of abusing the groundwater. Australia was in a drought for decades and their new water practices should be a model for California, in my opinion...

Florida is a pretty big agricultural state too-I think though, states should grow what is best for their climate-California should not be growing rice, alfalfa, lettuce and other crops-grapes, peaches and almonds are better for their climate, no? Interesting topic that we have here...

[LJG]

Ain't no drought in my hood. We are already in the rainy season a few weeks ahead of schedule.

Is it really a drought for you guys or is it that too many people live in a desert (chaparral, technically), trying to live like they are in the tropics?..

Andrew you love to make this same comment over and over on PT. I caution what you say because we are on a palm forum and most these people you are directing your "trying to live like they are in the tropics" are obviously not growing cactus and might find it insulting. As an outsider to FL politics I avoid pretending to have some greater insight than those living there. You should do the same. The issue is very complex. It has been confirmed by most experts (outside your NPR Aussie) that California lacks enough storage and was warned about this last drought. We also lack other effective means to supplement our water (more DeSal, toilet-to-tap, etc). Here is an interesting fact. There is the same amount of water on Earth now as when it was formed. The issue is getting that water or making better use of what water we do get. It isn't forcing people into growing rock gardens because our politicians fail us, a few eco-nuts screw us or because greed allows cities to keep issuing building permits.

[Pando]

Here is an interesting fact. There is the same amount of water on Earth now as when it was formed.

Actually, Len, it's estimated that the Earth has lost roughly 1/4 of its water to space during the last 4 billion years after it was formed. Of course this loss is completely negligible during the existence of human species, which I think is really the point of the argument here.

[DoomsDave]

Here is an interesting fact. There is the same amount of water on Earth now as when it was formed.

Actually, Len, it's estimated that the Earth has lost roughly 1/4 of its water to space during the last 4 billion years after it was formed. Of course this loss is completely negligible during the existence of human species, which I think is really the point of the argument here.

Whoa!

Who says? What's the basis?

Curious to know.

[LJG]

Here is an interesting fact. There is the same amount of water on Earth now as when it was formed.

Actually, Len, it's estimated that the Earth has lost roughly 1/4 of its water to space during the last 4 billion years after it was formed. Of course this loss is completely negligible during the existence of human species, which I think is really the point of the argument here.

Had to Google it because everything I learned in school was it is a closed system. So now let me clarify based off the one study you are referencing. It hasn't changed much at all for the last 2 billion years. Oxygen reacts with both hydrogen and deuterium to recreate water, which falls back to the Earth's surface.

[Pando]

Here is an interesting fact. There is the same amount of water on Earth now as when it was formed.

Actually, Len, it's estimated that the Earth has lost roughly 1/4 of its water to space during the last 4 billion years after it was formed. Of course this loss is completely negligible during the existence of human species, which I think is really the point of the argument here.

Whoa!

Who says? What's the basis?

Curious to know.

Dave, here is the paper for a bit of light reading... (here is the article based on the paper to save your sanity)

Len, yes, the loss was probably much greater in the first 2b years than the last 2b, especially when the Earth was a lot hotter place where most of the water existed as vapor in the atmosphere. Back then there was no ozone layer (to block UV rays that break down water molecules), and the planet had not cooled enough to allow precipitation. Nevertheless, it's not a completely closed system, and it's the hydrogen (the lightest element, along with helium) that's constantly escaping into space. Oxygen gets also removed from the global water reservoir by sequestration into sedimentary rocks along with carbon (as CO2), although it remains locked on the planet and not escaping.

That said, the loss of hydrogen is offset somewhat by water-rich meteorites that are constantly raining down.

So, it's safe to say that we have the same amount of water than did the Neanderthals, but not since the Earth was formed.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Pando

[John Case]

The City of Brentwood has just gone into a Stage 3 alert for the year. Luckily, I am already in compliance but I suspect that there will be more difficulty coming in later summer. I hope not but I have turned into a pessimist.....

[Mandrew968]

Ain't no drought in my hood. We are already in the rainy season a few weeks ahead of schedule.

Is it really a drought for you guys or is it that too many people live in a desert (chaparral, technically), trying to live like they are in the tropics?..

Andrew you love to make this same comment over and over on PT. I caution what you say because we are on a palm forum and most these people you are directing your "trying to live like they are in the tropics" are obviously not growing cactus and might find it insulting. As an outsider to FL politics I avoid pretending to have some greater insight than those living there. You should do the same. The issue is very complex. It has been confirmed by most experts (outside your NPR Aussie) that California lacks enough storage and was warned about this last drought. We also lack other effective means to supplement our water (more DeSal, toilet-to-tap, etc). Here is an interesting fact. There is the same amount of water on Earth now as when it was formed. The issue is getting that water or making better use of what water we do get. It isn't forcing people into growing rock gardens because our politicians fail us, a few eco-nuts screw us or because greed allows cities to keep issuing building permits.

Actually there is more water now than when it was formed--space debris, like comets and asteroids...

Sorry--was meant as a provocative question, not to make anyone upset. Obviously, I can only comment on my climate(it rained for almost 24 hours yesterday), and what I hear from other sources. I am always ready to listen to what people have to say, Len. The textbooks in my grade school said chaparral...

[palmaddict]

How times have changed. I currently live in San Diego and it has been a very dry couple of years. However I grew up in Sacramento which is built near the confluence of the Sacramento river the largest in the state and the American river which is the third largest in the state. Northern California in many parts is in extreme drought having subpar totals for the last few years. For those not familiar with California politics, there is enormous resentment in Northern California where all the snow melt is stored with all the water sent south to feed Los Angeles and San Diego which is where much of the city water is consumed. In reality agriculture consumes 80% of all water used in the state. My parents house in Sacramento was built in 1960 and only was retrofitted with a water meter about seven years ago. They used to pay a flat rate no matter how much water they used. Those times in Sacramento have completely changed and they are under restrictions on par with anywhere else or worse. The problem really is no progress has been made since 1950 with storage and conservation issues and meanwhile the population of the state has close to tripled. We are just paralyzed when it comes to dealing with the water issues. I feel comfortable commenting as both someone trying to grow palms in what is really a desert and someone who came from the North where there are real issues with the health of the Delta. We should have made progress like Israel has made with water resources and conservation. It is just remarkable what they have done and is in stark contrast to the bull**** the politicains have accomplished here in California. I predict we will have eight desalinization plants online in five-seven years here in California up from one major one about to come on line. We are one or two additional dry years from catastrophic failure of our decrepid water storage, production, and allocation system..

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

Yup, I agree with much of what you are saying.

[trioderob]

if next winter is bone dry we are screwed

[John Case]

How times have changed. I currently live in San Diego and it has been a very dry couple of years. However I grew up in Sacramento which is built near the confluence of the Sacramento river the largest in the state and the American river which is the third largest in the state. Northern California in many parts is in extreme drought having subpar totals for the last few years. For those not familiar with California politics, there is enormous resentment in Northern California where all the snow melt is stored with all the water sent south to feed Los Angeles and San Diego which is where much of the city water is consumed. In reality agriculture consumes 80% of all water used in the state. My parents house in Sacramento was built in 1960 and only was retrofitted with a water meter about seven years ago. They used to pay a flat rate no matter how much water they used. Those times in Sacramento have completely changed and they are under restrictions on par with anywhere else or worse. The problem really is no progress has been made since 1950 with storage and conservation issues and meanwhile the population of the state has close to tripled. We are just paralyzed when it comes to dealing with the water issues. I feel comfortable commenting as both someone trying to grow palms in what is really a desert and someone who came from the North where there are real issues with the health of the Delta. We should have made progress like Israel has made with water resources and conservation. It is just remarkable what they have done and is in stark contrast to the bull**** the politicains have accomplished here in California. I predict we will have eight desalinization plants online in five-seven years here in California up from one major one about to come on line. We are one or two additional dry years from catastrophic failure of our decrepid water storage, production, and allocation system..

FWIW, Israel has more water than they need due to desal plants they have built. Right now in Sacto, government dweebs are organizing a conference on the construction of more desal plants; their primary concern seem to be the rise in ocean salinity due to these plants.....of course, no scientists will be involved, but lots of environmentalists and unions.....we are lost....

[NorthFlpalmguy]

In my area we do all we can to try and drain enough land to plant timberland. The proposed desal plants should remedy the problem for a few decades. Poor metro and water storage/infrastructure planning has happened in Atlanta/GA as well. Fl/Ga have been fighting over the level of the Apalachicola river for decades now due to Atlanta sprawl .

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

From What I have seen around here, they treat surface water from lakes and rivers, then use it for irrigation for parks, city trees etc... crazy.

Treated water should be for domestic consumption only

[John Case]

We just got notified that we will be on a 35% reduction (this came out of nowhere as we all thought that based on numbers we have heard that 20% would be sufficient) from June 2015 through Feb 2016.

I suspect that the city council members up for election next year, including a formerly popular mayor, will probably not be in office after this, given that they have already demonstrated a deaf ear to the citizens after a hearing regarding a very unpopular decision regarding a placement of a proposed homeless shelter.

Additionally, an increase in rates appears to be on the horizon as well as the usage will be too low to make the budgeted income (?) that the city has expected. I find this very interesting. If a public utility is run by the city, is it ethical to try to run it for profit? After all, it is already supported by the tax dollars the city already gets? We already have one of the highest water rates in the area......something stinks to high heaven, and not just because people are not taking as many showers....

[DoomsDave]

Whoa, water from comets and asteroids.

Mama mia, papa pia . . .

[Pando]

If a public utility is run by the city, is it ethical to try to run it for profit? After all, it is already supported by the tax dollars the city already gets? We already have one of the highest water rates in the area......something stinks to high heaven

In a public utility the 'profit' is usually allocated for a reserve fund for any needed infrastructure improvements, often with timescales measured in decades. The annual financial reports and budgets are freely available on the web for any public utility you have questions on.

[redbeard917]

http://news.yahoo.com/drought-shaming-targets-wealthy-water-wasters-during-california-drought-154223581.html

First, they came for the people with green lawns... Hopefully palm hobbyists are rare enough to escape the ire of such busybodies.

[DoomsDave]

The un

http://news.yahoo.com/drought-shaming-targets-wealthy-water-wasters-during-california-drought-154223581.html

First, they came for the people with green lawns... Hopefully palm hobbyists are rare enough to escape the ire of such busybodies.

The fundamental problem is that many people who are rich like that just pay the fees and fines.

My garden will be in the cross-hairs, too. It's conspicuous, obvious.

Archontophoenix tuckeri palm heart, anyone?

[_Keith]

Tom seems to be doing OK.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-tom-selleck-water-complaint-20150707-story.html

[Ken Johnson]

The real story here is humans not water. When the humans get thirsty and or hungry they will either figure it out or die.

[Moose]

Ain't no drought in my hood. We are already in the rainy season a few weeks ahead of schedule.

 

Is it really a drought for you guys or is it that too many people live in a desert (chaparral, technically), trying to live like they are in the tropics?..

 

Andrew you love to make this same comment over and over on PT. I caution what you say because we are on a palm forum and most these people you are directing your "trying to live like they are in the tropics" are obviously not growing cactus and might find it insulting. As an outsider to FL politics I avoid pretending to have some greater insight than those living there. You should do the same. The issue is very complex. It has been confirmed by most experts (outside your NPR Aussie) that California lacks enough storage and was warned about this last drought. We also lack other effective means to supplement our water (more DeSal, toilet-to-tap, etc). Here is an interesting fact. There is the same amount of water on Earth now as when it was formed. The issue is getting that water or making better use of what water we do get. It isn't forcing people into growing rock gardens because our politicians fail us, a few eco-nuts screw us or because greed allows cities to keep issuing building permits.

Len, I've brought this issue up in another thread, so I'm going to ask it again since you have touched on it in your post. With California being a coastal state, I cannot comprehend the non use or establishment of desalination water plants. Storage is an issue, but desalination needs to be addressed as well. At least California is not landlocked without a desalination option.

[DoomsDave]

Ain't no drought in my hood. We are already in the rainy season a few weeks ahead of schedule.

 

Is it really a drought for you guys or is it that too many people live in a desert (chaparral, technically), trying to live like they are in the tropics?..

 

Andrew you love to make this same comment over and over on PT. I caution what you say because we are on a palm forum and most these people you are directing your "trying to live like they are in the tropics" are obviously not growing cactus and might find it insulting. As an outsider to FL politics I avoid pretending to have some greater insight than those living there. You should do the same. The issue is very complex. It has been confirmed by most experts (outside your NPR Aussie) that California lacks enough storage and was warned about this last drought. We also lack other effective means to supplement our water (more DeSal, toilet-to-tap, etc). Here is an interesting fact. There is the same amount of water on Earth now as when it was formed. The issue is getting that water or making better use of what water we do get. It isn't forcing people into growing rock gardens because our politicians fail us, a few eco-nuts screw us or because greed allows cities to keep issuing building permits.

 

Len, I've brought this issue up in another thread, so I'm going to ask it again since you have touched on it in your post. With California being a coastal state, I cannot comprehend the non use or establishment of desalination water plants. Storage is an issue, but desalination needs to be addressed as well. At least California is not landlocked without a desalination option.

Moose, desalinization is being taken seriously for the first time I can recall and I've been here 30+ years. The reason is that it's expensive, and requires a large, expensive, facility to do it, with lots of trucks kicking up dust, making noise, etc., which annoys neighbors on some of the most expensive real estate on earth. Plus a Coastal Commission that's been accused of being rogue, non-transparent, dictatorial, whimsical, etc. Getting a de-sal plant past that kind of gauntlet will be daunting.

Getting water from the rain, as we had done, was just a far easier thing to do. You can't stop the rain, till it stops.

I recall that a de-sal plant is being proposed for coastal Orange County somewhere (Huntington Beach?) but honestly can't imagine it actually getting built, or if it is, actually being operated. (I hope I'm wrong.)

Another big question is who will pay and how much? How do you iron out a disagreement? Hold an election? How do you finance? With bonds? Angel investors? Hmm. Maybe google that de-sal plant and see!

De-sal isn't simple, unless you're in Saudi Arabia and the King says "build a plant."

[DoomsDave]

I googled the de sal plant, and found an interesting article in the OC Register.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/water-658616-desalination-county.html

 

"Desalination promises a world with no limits. Or at least fewer of them.

If water – for your lawn, for your shower, for the orchards of almond trees – were as inexhaustible as the Pacific Ocean, there would be no more rationing, no edicts from the governor to cut consumption.

And it’s right there, along Orange County’s 42 miles of coastline. All 353 quintillion gallons of saltwater, ripe for the taking.

As California’s four-year drought forces the state to grapple with the possibility that growth and consumption face hard limits, technology that separates salt from water offers a tempting alternative.

That promise is driving the $1 billion desalination plant that Poseidon Water is set to open in Carlsbad this November. And it has brought Poseidon within one permit of building a plant in Huntington Beach. If completed as proposed, it would supply Orange County with 7 percent of its water.

But critics fighting the project say the desalination promise doesn’t align with reality.

The technology requires so much electricity, they point out, that the resulting water costs twice as much as water from other sources.

That’s not to mention the ecological impact of sucking in millions of gallons of seawater everyday packed with fish larvae and microorganisms. Or the dead zones created when brine twice as salty as ocean water is discharged after treatment."

CLICK ON LINK FOR MORE

 

[Moose]

Ain't no drought in my hood. We are already in the rainy season a few weeks ahead of schedule.

 

Is it really a drought for you guys or is it that too many people live in a desert (chaparral, technically), trying to live like they are in the tropics?..

 

Andrew you love to make this same comment over and over on PT. I caution what you say because we are on a palm forum and most these people you are directing your "trying to live like they are in the tropics" are obviously not growing cactus and might find it insulting. As an outsider to FL politics I avoid pretending to have some greater insight than those living there. You should do the same. The issue is very complex. It has been confirmed by most experts (outside your NPR Aussie) that California lacks enough storage and was warned about this last drought. We also lack other effective means to supplement our water (more DeSal, toilet-to-tap, etc). Here is an interesting fact. There is the same amount of water on Earth now as when it was formed. The issue is getting that water or making better use of what water we do get. It isn't forcing people into growing rock gardens because our politicians fail us, a few eco-nuts screw us or because greed allows cities to keep issuing building permits.

 

Len, I've brought this issue up in another thread, so I'm going to ask it again since you have touched on it in your post. With California being a coastal state, I cannot comprehend the non use or establishment of desalination water plants. Storage is an issue, but desalination needs to be addressed as well. At least California is not landlocked without a desalination option.

Moose, desalinization is being taken seriously for the first time I can recall and I've been here 30+ years. The reason is that it's expensive, and requires a large, expensive, facility to do it, with lots of trucks kicking up dust, making noise, etc., which annoys neighbors on some of the most expensive real estate on earth. Plus a Coastal Commission that's been accused of being rogue, non-transparent, dictatorial, whimsical, etc. Getting a de-sal plant past that kind of gauntlet will be daunting.

Getting water from the rain, as we had done, was just a far easier thing to do. You can't stop the rain, till it stops.

I recall that a de-sal plant is being proposed for coastal Orange County somewhere (Huntington Beach?) but honestly can't imagine it actually getting built, or if it is, actually being operated. (I hope I'm wrong.)

Another big question is who will pay and how much? How do you iron out a disagreement? Hold an election? How do you finance? With bonds? Angel investors? Hmm. Maybe google that de-sal plant and see!

De-sal isn't simple, unless you're in Saudi Arabia and the King says "build a plant."

Why does it have to be so complicated? Raise the rate of municipal water to $2 per gallon. At that rate the public would revolt and the bureaucracies would disolve.

Key West got their water piped down Dade County. Chemicals had to be added to make sure the water safe for drinking. It had an odor, funky taste and caused a bit of gastric distress until you became acclimated. The pipe was getting old it was a matter of time until a big rig would take it out.

I'll bet Key West residents pay less for their water from the desalination plant then our friends in California.

[DoomsDave]

Ain't no drought in my hood. We are already in the rainy season a few weeks ahead of schedule.

 

Is it really a drought for you guys or is it that too many people live in a desert (chaparral, technically), trying to live like they are in the tropics?..

 

Andrew you love to make this same comment over and over on PT. I caution what you say because we are on a palm forum and most these people you are directing your "trying to live like they are in the tropics" are obviously not growing cactus and might find it insulting. As an outsider to FL politics I avoid pretending to have some greater insight than those living there. You should do the same. The issue is very complex. It has been confirmed by most experts (outside your NPR Aussie) that California lacks enough storage and was warned about this last drought. We also lack other effective means to supplement our water (more DeSal, toilet-to-tap, etc). Here is an interesting fact. There is the same amount of water on Earth now as when it was formed. The issue is getting that water or making better use of what water we do get. It isn't forcing people into growing rock gardens because our politicians fail us, a few eco-nuts screw us or because greed allows cities to keep issuing building permits.

 

Len, I've brought this issue up in another thread, so I'm going to ask it again since you have touched on it in your post. With California being a coastal state, I cannot comprehend the non use or establishment of desalination water plants. Storage is an issue, but desalination needs to be addressed as well. At least California is not landlocked without a desalination option.

Moose, desalinization is being taken seriously for the first time I can recall and I've been here 30+ years. The reason is that it's expensive, and requires a large, expensive, facility to do it, with lots of trucks kicking up dust, making noise, etc., which annoys neighbors on some of the most expensive real estate on earth. Plus a Coastal Commission that's been accused of being rogue, non-transparent, dictatorial, whimsical, etc. Getting a de-sal plant past that kind of gauntlet will be daunting.

Getting water from the rain, as we had done, was just a far easier thing to do. You can't stop the rain, till it stops.

I recall that a de-sal plant is being proposed for coastal Orange County somewhere (Huntington Beach?) but honestly can't imagine it actually getting built, or if it is, actually being operated. (I hope I'm wrong.)

Another big question is who will pay and how much? How do you iron out a disagreement? Hold an election? How do you finance? With bonds? Angel investors? Hmm. Maybe google that de-sal plant and see!

De-sal isn't simple, unless you're in Saudi Arabia and the King says "build a plant."

 

Why does it have to be so complicated? Raise the rate of municipal water to $2 per gallon. At that rate the public would revolt and the bureaucracies would disolve.

Key West got their water piped down Dade County. Chemicals had to be added to make sure the water safe for drinking. It had an odor, funky taste and caused a bit of gastric distress until you became acclimated. The pipe was getting old it was a matter of time until a big rig would take it out.

I'll bet Key West residents pay less for their water from the desalination plant then our friends in California.

Go ahead, raise the rate to $2 a gallon. Then, invite those who are angry to pull Moose's noose . . . . .

As for Key West's rates, that's a great question. Maybe there's a way to look it up . . .