Recap for My Area and a Request

[Scot from SC]

I know there is a lot of information out there concerning the cold hardiness of various palms and tropical looking plants. I would like to ask each of you who have the time and are willing to document information, especially if you are like me and didn't protect anything. I think this sort of information is great because a lot of us don't protect palms.

I live in Greenwood, South Carolina. The altitude here is around 660 feet. We are a zone 8a. We have long summers, and it is not unusual to have 100 F days in July and August. The soil in most parts around here is either clay or a clay mix. The only palm that is native to my county is Sabal minor. We do have an increasing population of alligators, and this is not a surprise since gator hunting permits are issued to the county south of us and down. I added the gator comment to give you a feel for the area.

I had about 38 continuous hours at or below 32 F. My absolute low was 10 F. We touched 32 F yesterday, but that was it. Earlier this morning we rose above 32 F. I did not cover anything, but I am not worried. I will document anything that was damaged, but I really didn't cover last year, which was much more worse. Last year, the wind was horrible, we had ice and snow, and the hours below 32 F were longer.

I have the following varieties of palms: Butia odorata, J X B, Trachycarpus forunei, wagnerianus, takil, Rhapidophyllum hystrix, Sabal palmetto, minor, Brazoria, Birmingham, Uresana, Tamaulipas, Louisiana, Riverside, Bermudana, and Chamaedorea radicalis.

I have various other evergreen "tropical" looking plants like Fatsia, Christmas ferns, etc.

Of course, I can't predict if we will have another dip to 10 F like we did this week. I take solace in the fact that my zone is 8a, and 10F is in the range for my zone. My hope is to, with others, establish some guidelines for some of the newly discovered or created hybrids, palms, and plants that we all love for their tropical look.

I will post a follow up report in a few months and share my findings via photographs and commentary.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Scot from SC

[Alicehunter2000]

Butia odorata, J X B, Trachycarpus forunei, wagnerianus, takil, Rhapidophyllum hystrix, Sabal palmetto, minor, Brazoria, Birmingham, Uresana, Tamaulipas, Louisiana, Riverside, Bermudana, and Chamaedorea radicalis.

Sounds like good ones to try for the most part. Probably zone pushing with urseana, bermundana and C. radicalis. You should also check what those guys in Dallas are growing. You might have a chance with a W. filibusta ....with more "fili" and less "busta". You should definitely get some C. humilis varieties and I would try N. richiana as well. I think there are other Trachies as well that would survive your zone, a few other Butia's also.

I don't know if I wouldn't try a mule as well...they are readily available and probably worth a shot in your best microclimate. Some Livistonia and Phoenix are pretty dang tough too.

[Scot from SC]

Hey David! You are right about the urseana, bermundana and C. radicalis probably borderline for my area. I have the Radicalis against my house's foundation, out of the wind. It is in a perfect spot that stays in shade, especially in the winter months. The two sabals are going into their second winter in the ground unprotected, so time will tell. I think a mule is on my list for this year, and other hybrids as well. I do have spots on my property that usually are several degrees warmer in winter than the lows for my area. By the way, the uresana is as close as I can get to a palm you can grow with ease, Bismarckia. I love Bizzys! I have talked my aunt down in Ft. Myers into putting one in her yard. At least I can have an adopted one that I see a few times a year! Haha.

[Brad Mondel]

At my house in Myrtle Beach S.C I grew some cold hardy palms, and experimented with others.

Palms I grew successfully without protection were:

Livistona Chinensis (understory Palm)

Trachycarpus wagnerianus and Fortunei

Washingtonia robusta

Butia Odorata

Pheonix Canarienensis

Chamaedorea Radicalis

Chamaerops humilus 'argentae'

And green.

Sabal Palmetto

Sabal 'riverside'

Unsuccessful palms were:

Pheonix Syvestris

Syagrus R.

Good drainage and proper siting can decide the fate of a Palm. Planting the palms in amended soil above the soil line, in a raised bed, will help them much better than planting them at ground level.

Edited January 9, 2015 by ArchAngeL01

[Brad Mondel]

Here is the Chinensis. It survived 14F but it's under a canopy of pines for protection. They look better in shade than sun in my opinion.

[Scot from SC]

Hey ArchAngeL01! Thank you for the information and the beautiful picture. Charleston has a half zone on me, but your list and advice are very sound. Amended beds really make a difference on some of the desert palms that can tolerate cold but not wet feet. What is LA's zone? I am thinking a zone 9b?

[Brad Mondel]

According to the map, it's a zone 10b but I just moved here so I'm kind of clueless about the climate right now.

[905palms]

Sabal species have always been winners and a safer bet way up here. Mind you, I'm the only one with a S. Palmetto in Toronto area. Protection of course, but they seem to tolerate rapid fluctuations, and that's what affects most palms. Love your selection Scott! Tell me more about the Tamaulipas, I have seed growing strap leaves of that one. Any success with Foxtail or Queen?

[DoomsDave]

Livistona chinensis are a lot tougher than you think.

You might also consider some Arenga engleri. They're supposed to take into the single digits.

[Jim in Los Altos]

Don't forget the trunking variety of C. radicalis. They get nice and tall (12' or more) and are likely as cold hardy as the non-trunking variety. Los Angeles is 10b by the way.

[Scot from SC]

Hey Dan! Sabal Tamaulipas to me is like s Sabal minor on major steroids. It seems to grow faster and is much larger than the typical minor. Its seeds are larger from what I have read. Mine are still young, so it will be a few years before I get any. They are very cold hardy. I don't have a Queen or Foxtail, but I plan on trying a mule this Spring.

Dave, there is a lady growing Livistona chinensis not too far from me, so it might be worth a gamble. It is a beautiful palm.

Hey Jim! I have some young trunking C. radicalis planted out of the sun completely next to my foundation and chimney. I think they are very awesome looking little palms. You guys in LA are lucky! I would love to have a zone 10 growing environment! I do have relatives in Ft. Myers, FL, so I do get to plant a few goodies down there that don't stand a chance in my zone 8.

[smithgn]

Scot- I have data for all of the below freezing temperatures I've experienced at my house. I don't have anything fancy, but I have 2 different AccuRite temperature gauges that I use for each area that I want to record temperatures. Usually one brand is a degree or two colder than the other, but sometimes they are right about the same. I wanted to comment on growing a livistona chinensis for our area... I have one growing right up against a fence, with a house on the other side that, according to Google Earth, should block northwesterly winds and some cold. The absolute low it has seen completely unprotected was 20 degrees. It then experienced 23 degrees twice after the ultimate low of 20 degrees. I definitely got some frizzled tips from this and after this episode, I've thrown a frost cloth over it during upper 20's and low 30's temps just for the heck of it and if I had time (something I don't have much of!)

During our last cold front, I protected it during the night with a frost cloth and a tarp with a heater beneath. I did this for 4 nights, uncovering it during the day. I ultimately got down to 12. Surely, it would have been fried at this temperature but I don't think it'd be dead... I didn't want to try this though, since it still Isn't established and is maybe 2 feet tall and of course not even trunking yet.

This is a good topic and I'll try to share some more info as the winter presses on... I wish I had more time, but work and school is kicking my butt! I'll catch up when I can. Hope this info helps.

[Scot from SC]

Hey Nick! Thanks for the update. I understand about having to go to school and work...I did full time at both back in the day in undergraduate and graduate school. It will pay off though! Keep us updated as time permits my friend.

[DoomsDave]

Check my PM.

[Scot from SC]

Thanks Dave...message sent.

[smithgn]

Dave- I have 2, band size arenga engleri's I might try in my area (they're in the greenhouse for now). I've heard they are hardy into the teens, but no concrete information. BTW, is there any rule on how small to transplant plants from a container into the ground?

ArchAngel- That stinks to hear that the sylvestris didn't make it in your area, doesn't sound to promising for me then Haha. I bought one in an overflowing, 5 gallon pot for super cheap in October of last year. Instead of putting it in the ground since it was so late in the season, I put it in a larger pot. Brought it inside during the low teens, but hasn't flinched when temperatures hit anywhere in the 20's. Going to put that in ground once spring rolls around and hope for the best... We'll see! I'll be sure to keep everyone updated with that. Beautiful chinensis you have, btw. What did you do with your palms in Myrtle Beach?

Scot- I'm not sure if it was mentioned in the other thread you started about hybrids, but I'd be willing to try out Mule's as mentioned above by David. I know you said you've been looking around for the next hybrid to try out- this might be a good one. I'm going to try to get my hands on one by spring time and see how it does in our area. Another cool one and more exotic, but seldom available type of hybrid to try would be a Jubaea x Syagrus. Some documentation on that would be awesome since zone 8 would probably be on the farthest fringe of being able to grow that. Just a thought.

Edited January 19, 2015 by smithgn

[Scot from SC]

Hey Nick. I definitely am going to try out a mule. I will plant it near my house so it will be somewhat protected. I would love a J X S! I know it, like the mule, would be a gamble in our zone 8, but maybe the Jubaea blood would give it enough cold hardiness to grow here.

[Brad Mondel]

I think your chances of survival with the Sylvestris would increase if you made sure the soil was extremely well drained. I've made the mistake of poor drainage plenty of times.

My palms were left with relatives there, sometimes they send me updated pictures on them! They're doing surprisingly well considering I'm not there to care for them. I miss them like crazy.

[905palms]

Scot,thanks for the response and that'd be great if you can show me a picture of your Tamaulipas. I'm impatient with the growth rate of most Sabal species... however, I do know as they get older, they start taking off relatively speaking. And yes, the seeds I received were very large compared to the Brazoria's or standard S.minors. Actually they are little larger than a Reses Peices.lol

[smithgn]

Scot- No doubt the J x S would be worth a try. I'm now a little hesitant to try a Mule after reading in another thread that David's Mule(s) in North Florida had spear pull in mid-20's temperatures. Yikes!

ArchAngel- Duly noted about drainage for the Sylvestris. Im going to find a heckuva time finding that in my yard lol. That's good to hear about your palms in Myrtle Beach. When I'm out of town and/or working a lot It's often hard to entrust others to look after mine, but it often turns out okay- Haha

[Phoenikakias]

Dave- I have 2, band size arenga engleri's I might try in my area (they're in the greenhouse for now). I've heard they are hardy into the teens, but no concrete information. BTW, is there any rule on how small to transplant plants from a container into the ground?

ArchAngel- That stinks to hear that the sylvestris didn't make it in your area, doesn't sound to promising for me then Haha. I bought one in an overflowing, 5 gallon pot for super cheap in October of last year. Instead of putting it in the ground since it was so late in the season, I put it in a larger pot. Brought it inside during the low teens, but hasn't flinched when temperatures hit anywhere in the 20's. Going to put that in ground once spring rolls around and hope for the best... We'll see! I'll be sure to keep everyone updated with that. Beautiful chinensis you have, btw. What did you do with your palms in Myrtle Beach?

Scot- I'm not sure if it was mentioned in the other thread you started about hybrids, but I'd be willing to try out Mule's as mentioned above by David. I know you said you've been looking around for the next hybrid to try out- this might be a good one. I'm going to try to get my hands on one by spring time and see how it does in our area. Another cool one and more exotic, but seldom available type of hybrid to try would be a Jubaea x Syagrus. Some documentation on that would be awesome since zone 8 would probably be on the farthest fringe of being able to grow that. Just a thought.

For the palms that can not be consdered bullet-proof in your climate a 5 gal potted palm, which is substantially rootbound is the norm.

[smithgn]

Phoenikakias- Thanks again for the info, I'll keep this in mind

[Scot from SC]

Update...we had freezing rain last night. I estimate palms were iced over for 16 hours. Temperatures last night stayed around 30 F. We warmed up to high 30s today and ice has melted for the most part on my palms. We are looking at a low of 28 F tonight. Luckily I think most ice will be off palms and spears. We are supposed to be in 40s Wednesday and Thursday, but both nights will be in the low teens. This weekend we are supposed to be in the 60s. Such is life in the Southeast! I will document damage as time goes by. I am wagering everything will be fine. Let's see how tough my hybrid and Butias are. I am not worried about Sabals or the other cold hardy crew.

[SailorBold]

Update...we had freezing rain last night. I estimate palms were iced over for 16 hours. Temperatures last night stayed around 30 F. We warmed up to high 30s today and ice has melted for the most part on my palms. We are looking at a low of 28 F tonight. Luckily I think most ice will be off palms and spears. We are supposed to be in 40s Wednesday and Thursday, but both nights will be in the low teens. This weekend we are supposed to be in the 60s. Such is life in the Southeast! I will document damage as time goes by. I am wagering everything will be fine. Let's see how tough my hybrid and Butias are. I am not worried about Sabals or the other cold hardy crew.

Not too bad really..temperature wise... Im assuming you didn't cover anything?

[Scot from SC]

No sir...not a thing. I want real world results for my area and to help others.

[smithgn]

Scot, not surprisingly your temperatures are pretty much dead on to what mine were. Interested to see how everything fares. I'm covering up my W. Robusta and my L. Chinensis. Everything else is exposed. This is going to be the most brutal cold we've seen all winter and everything should be close to smooth sailing after this week. Look forward to seeing how everything goes your way, good luck!

[Scot from SC]

Thank you for the well wishes Nick. I think you are smart covering up those two palms. I don't have anything that tender, but I want to see how the hybrid handles things compared go my Butias.

[buffy]

On Arenga, I would recommend growing them in a container for 5 years before attempting. They're pretty frost sensitive even in the lower 20s. They'll return from the ground with suckers at low teens. But ideally, planting it out with a lot of mass will make recovery easier. They only put out 2-3 leaves in a growing season.

Dave- I have 2, band size arenga engleri's I might try in my area (they're in the greenhouse for now). I've heard they are hardy into the teens, but no concrete information.

[smithgn]

Scot-

buff- I knew next to nothing about arenga engleris when I bought the 2 seedlings. One thing I've learned before your response is how slow they are. But I'll take your advice, thanks. They need some room to breath so a bigger pot should speed up the process a tad.

[Scot from SC]

Just for the sake of documentation for any damage to palms, we just came out of our longest stretch of continuous freezing temperatures this winter. We had around 42 hours of temperatures below 32 F, with last night's low of 10 F being the lowest temperature during the period. We hit freezing at 8 p.m. Wednesday night, Thursday's temperatures were 15/30, and it looks like today's will be 10/34. We will dip to the mid twenties tonight according to sources. This weekend looks better, with temperatures in the low 50s for a high Saturday, lows of lower forties Saturday evening, and Sunday calling for a high of 62 and a low of 39.

[smithgn]

I had a low of 10 also, Scot. It'd be a few days till you may see any damage, if any. Interested to see how you radicalis' did. I covered mine with a garbage can lol

[Palm crazy]

That is some crazy cold this time of year!

Yeah I like to know about the Ch. radicalis also. Mine went through a big freeze once. 12F for three nights and most of them survived, they look totally dead but they regrew back in summer.

Good luck guys, may this weekend bring some Sun and Warmth.

[Scot from SC]

Thanks guys! It looks like my high might be 36 F for an hour...lol. The temperature went up a couple of degrees since I posted, but it will drop to the twenties when the sun goes down. I will see how my C. radicalis does in a few weeks. I have it in such a sweet little spot, tucked away between my house's foundation and a part where my house juts out a few feet. I have a feeling it will be okay, but time will tell. I am so ready for this winter to get out of here. Where else in the world can you have such crazy weather? We hit 100s here in the summer, and our summers are very long. Then we have some winter temperatures down to 10F and 11F briefly. I have heard that there are parts of China a lot like us. I pity the palm growers there too. Lol.

[smithgn]

It's crazy, I know! Sometimes in the summertime I feel like we live in a bonafide jungle; temperature wise. Yet days like we had recently, where it struggles to get past freezing makes me scratch my head and think we live in a frozen tundra. If only we were more peninsular (sp?) then we wouldn't get the brunt of all these fricken cold fronts. but hey, part of that is what makes it fun. I've read that SE China is similar to the SE United States as well; being east coast oriented as well, it must be very similar.

[Scot from SC]

Hey Nick. It is crazy! I am thankful we didn't get below 30 F last night. It didn't get there until late, so we had several hours above freezing. We are in the 50s now...lol. I hope that was the last bitter cold of this winter. Even though we were in our 8a designation, it felt colder. I think everything is fine, but sometimes it takes a month or two to see the damage. Speaking of China, I am growing from acorns different evergreen oaks. One of them is the Chinese evergreen oak. It is awesome from the literature I have read. Plus, it is not a huge oak, so it doesn't take up massive space. If I get seedlings you are welcome to one. I figure the more evergreen plants to go with my palms the better. I am after the tropical look!

[smithgn]

Awesome that all you got down to was 30. It almost sounds refreshing to be in 30's, I bet. I got a little colder in my yard, 28, 26, 26.

Funny you mention that, because the forecast for today was SUPPOSE to be ~47 if I recall correctly. Yet, it hit as high as 60. It hit 60 degrees in downtown Columbia but of course it was a little less than that in my yard, mid to high 50's probably. But I'll take it! What's funny is that if this was early November, we'd all be complaining about how chilly it is, yet after all of this freezing weather we welcome windy conditions with highs in the mid to upper 50's!

I'm still learning a lot when it comes to non-palm trees, but I do take an appreciation for Oaks and Magnolias- anything common where its warm, basically lol If they do germinate, I'd more than love to have one . BTW, I have some cool seedlings that you might like as well. I actually ventured out onto highway 378 in West Columbia and picked up a bunch of seeds underneath the massive Filibusta and I swear every single one is germinating and I have dozens and dozens of them. They're growing like crazy. You're more than welcome to several of those lol Are you familiar with the tree that I'm talking about? If not, let me know and I'll send you a picture of it. It's really pretty neat and stands out.

Edited February 22, 2015 by smithgn

[Kailua_Krish]

Have you guys looked at some of the non-grandiflora evergreen magnolias? (Like insignis)

[Scot from SC]

Hey Nick! I will save you some of whatever pops up. I am not sure of the Filibusta on 378. I would love a picture and seedling. Maybe Fklibusta would do well for me. We almost hit 60 F today. It felt great!

Hey Krishnaraoji88! I am not really. All I have is a big leaf magnolia. My neighbor has a small evergreen of some sort in his front yard. It gas the big hard leaves. I am unsure of the type. Are there other evergreen ones besides those?

[Kailua_Krish]

Many! Michelia, Parakmeria, and Manglietia all got collapsed into Magnolia. There are multiple evergreen species now of all sorts of sizes, flower sizes, and flower colors. Many are reported as very fragrant! Im not sure which ones are hardy in 8a since I grow in 9a but I think quite a few are. Magnolia maudiae and laevifolia are probably a good place to start looking.

-Krishna

[Scot from SC]

Thank you Krishna! I am going to research the ones you listed. Hopefully there are some tropical looking evergreen ones that will work for my area.