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Coconut palms in Golden Gate Estates near Naples, FL?


JakeK

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This question is very specific to those on Palmtalk who live in South Florida.

My parents will be moving to the Naples area in the next couple of years. They are content renting a condo from a friend until they do move, but eventually looking to buy a house. They've started looking a few neighborhoods and Golden Gate Estates is one of them. The large lots are really nice especially in south Florida.

I'm wondering if coconut palms could grow well in Golden Gate Estates? I know they grow exceptionally well west of I-75. Any thoughts?

Btw, my wife and I just returned from a 3 day trip to Captiva. I was there 20 years ago as a teenager with my family, but really didn't recognize much. Being a barrier island the flora is very tropical. Even saw a red sealing wax palm at South Seas Island Resort (don't think it will be a long-term resident though).

Cincinnati, Ohio USA & Mindo, Ecuador

 

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here is one on google and if look around there is on on the other side of the street. and this is far west by 75. if your concern is coconuts I would look for anything that hugs 75.

https://www.google.com/maps/@26.1780013,-81.7274882,3a,62.3y,325.89h,90.87t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1skEyr2prO9VyvVi2mqzgCng!2e0?hl=en

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I looked around Pine Island in 1993 before buying a lot, which I later sold. Pine Island can have marginal frosts every few years, but there were growing coconuts that I saw, some partially defoliated during a frost. The inner part of PI is a little higher and cooler than gulf front parts like Bookeelia. On the mainland on I75 near PI, coconuts were badly damaged in the frost, and were clearly marginal. If you want to grow anything tropical, don't even think about Golden Gate Estates. That area has freezes nearly every winter.

Mike Merritt

Big Island of Hawaii, windward, rainy side, 740 feet (225 meters) elevation

165 inches (4,200 mm) of rain per year, 66 to 83 deg F (20 to 28 deg C) in summer, 62 to 80 deg F (16.7 to 26.7 Deg C) in winter.

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The orange is solid 9B, the red cold 10A, dark red solid 10A, etc.

The neighborhood you are talking about is in the lighter red area.

That's my 3 cents.

Brevard County, Fl

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Golden Gate Estates is the coldest spot in extreme south Florida. I see freezing temps there on wundermap every year. Lots and houses were really cheap there a few years ago and may still be. This area and Lehigh Acres have been very depressed for years. Tell them to think very carefully and not just be seduced by bottom of the barrel prices.

Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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Golden Gate Estates is the coldest spot in extreme south Florida. I see freezing temps there on wundermap every year. Lots and houses were really cheap there a few years ago and may still be. This area and Lehigh Acres have been very depressed for years. Tell them to think very carefully and not just be seduced by bottom of the barrel prices.

Amazing that you would see freezing temps there every year, just looked it up, that's way far south and really not all that far from the coast

Corpus Christi, TX, near salt water, zone 9b/10a! Except when it isn't and everything gets nuked.

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East of. 75 is colder all the way down the coast. Every mile east makes a big difference. I think if the house sits on water it might not be a problem but I would try to look west of 75 or right around 75 on water.

Pine island is a totally different story, it's a key and surrounded by water. Even so there are warm and cold parts of Pine island so even there you would want to pick and choose carefully but I've seen coconuts everywhere there , some just fare better than others in cold snaps due to location.

Cape Coral on the water is pretty lush and tropical coconuts everywhere, people a mile inland or so can't grow them. You can get a lot for your money there but it's no Naples, I like it though. Awesome if you like boating, fishing, coconuts mangos lychees etc etc etc and pristine beaches.and it's growing and getting back on it's feet after being one of the hardest hit areas in the country.

If growing coconuts is your main concern, I would go west young man!

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I live in central Cape Coral and have a number of coconuts. Lehigh Acres & Golden Gate are much colder. If you want to grow coconuts reliably, don't go anywhere east of US 41.

Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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Yes Cape Coral has coconuts everywhere, in all parts of Cape Coral, not just near the water, and as Meg said stay west of HWY 41. You will see coconuts east of 41 but not reliable and they don't look great.

Lived in Cape Coral, Miami, Orlando and St. Petersburg Florida.

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Yes west of 41 would be the best advice. I only notice coconuts by the water in Cape Coral but You would certainly be the authority down there Meg :) I was going to say that in my post but forgot. Maybe people just garden more near the water or that's just where I go lol

Meg all over Cape Coral? Really? That's awesome!!!! Would you consider them marginal in most areas there or are they all long time survivors?

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Folks certainly need to plant trees down there! I don't know who thought it would be a good idea to level the place and turn it into a big field?

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Folks certainly need to plant trees down there! I don't know who thought it would be a good idea to level the place and turn it into a big field?

Coconuts are common all over the Cape (which is a peninsula surrounded by the Gulf and the Caloosahatchee River). Also, the city benefits from 400 miles of salt- and freshwater canals. I'm on freshwater and I'm sure my back yard jungle benefits from the moderation of cold in winter. That said, I think far northeast Cape is farthest from water and subject to significantly colder temps.

Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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Rob,

I live a few miles NE of Meg in Cape Coral right off of Pine Island road, and there are several mature fruiting coconut palms in my neighborhood. Matter of fact one was hit by lightning this past summer as it was taller than the surrounding trees. I am west of 41, and we are also surrounded by canals which probably help. In my collection, even though very young, have 10 coconut palms, Gold Malayan, Yellow Malayan, Green Malayan, Jamaican Tall, and Red Spicata.

I agree, people need to plant more trees! I live in a "newer" housing development that was hit hard by the real estate crash and there are a lot of empty lots. But I am doing my part in creating a jungle in my part of Cape Coral! :)

Lived in Cape Coral, Miami, Orlando and St. Petersburg Florida.

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You are actually probably better off in places like Cocoa Beach, St. Petersburg, or perfectly situated hill lake side in parts of interior central Florida than you would be on the east side of I-75 in Collier county.

Brevard County, Fl

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Folks certainly need to plant trees down there! I don't know who thought it would be a good idea to level the place and turn it into a big field?

Cape Coral is the brain child of the Rosen brothers in the 1950s. They bought a whole passel of swamp land, I mean "wetlands". Back then everyone thought swamps were bad and should be drained. The Rosens dredged the canals out of the swamp and used the fill to raise the elevation above sea level. Some FL natives recall playing on mounds of fill and fishing in the canals. The Rosens carved the new land into 80 x 125 sf lots and started peddling them to Yankees (everyone born north of FL is a Yankee, also called D*** Yankees). Fun in the sun for $50 down and $50 a month for a piece of former swamp land. Developers sweetened the deal by flying prospective buyers to the Cape for a vacation/hard sell (aka "Fly 'em and Fleece 'em " flights). My late in-laws took advantage of these flights but were not induced to invest - with 4 kids they couldn't afford a real estate investment in vacant land.

Cape Coral became an independent city in 1970. Nowadays, the EPA and FDEP would squash a land deal this huge like a bug. For further reference, watch the Marx Brothers movie "Cocoanuts."

Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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Cape Coral looks amazing from Google Earth, all those canals, more canals than streets it seems. It's kinda too bad that that kind of project would never fly today,

Corpus Christi, TX, near salt water, zone 9b/10a! Except when it isn't and everything gets nuked.

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Thanks everybody for the responses. It's crazy to think an area that far south and also not very far from the coast would be prone to such freezes each year. The reason why they were looking at Golden Gate Estates is because you can buy large lots, up to 10 acres...for horses. Property large enough to support a couple of horses in the Naples area means Golden Gate Estates at least from what they've seen.

Cincinnati, Ohio USA & Mindo, Ecuador

 

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Coconut palms do fine in the estates. I grew up there and there are plenty around. The closer you are to 951 the better. Yes they do get burned every once in a while but they recover. West of 41 never freezes but the land prices are ridiculous.

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Xerarch, it's a good thing a project like that wouldn't fly today. Draining wetlands to build houses on is not a good thing, the entire watershed of Florida has been drastically changed by man blocking the natural flow of the water from the okefenokee swamp in Georgia down through the Everglades and into Florida bay. Entire ecosystems unique to small areas have been lost or nearly destroyed through this practice. Florida is doing some work to try to get things flowing again.

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Xerarch, it's a good thing a project like that wouldn't fly today. Draining wetlands to build houses on is not a good thing, the entire watershed of Florida has been drastically changed by man blocking the natural flow of the water from the okefenokee swamp in Georgia down through the Everglades and into Florida bay. Entire ecosystems unique to small areas have been lost or nearly destroyed through this practice. Florida is doing some work to try to get things flowing again.

Yes, I agree, my comment was not intended to suggest that I actually wish we could drain more Florida swamps/wetlands as so much has been lost already. I was just looking at the fact that I think Cape Coral is really cool and that we won't see the likes of it again.

Corpus Christi, TX, near salt water, zone 9b/10a! Except when it isn't and everything gets nuked.

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Cape Coral is definitely one of a kind.

I would suggest to anyone considering a move like this that they visit when the climate is at its worst. So, in FL visit in July or August, not Jan. That's when the sun is at its most ferocious, days are hot, nights are stifling, bugs are swarming and hurricanes pending. If you can hack the worst you look forward to the best. We visited Cape Coral in July before making our life-changing decision.

Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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East of. 75 is colder all the way down the coast. Every mile east makes a big difference. I think if the house sits on water it might not be a problem but I would try to look west of 75 or right around 75 on water.

Pine island is a totally different story, it's a key and surrounded by water. Even so there are warm and cold parts of Pine island so even there you would want to pick and choose carefully but I've seen coconuts everywhere there , some just fare better than others in cold snaps due to location.

Cape Coral on the water is pretty lush and tropical coconuts everywhere, people a mile inland or so can't grow them. You can get a lot for your money there but it's no Naples, I like it though. Awesome if you like boating, fishing, coconuts mangos lychees etc etc etc and pristine beaches.and it's growing and getting back on it's feet after being one of the hardest hit areas in the country.

If growing coconuts is your main concern, I would go west young man!

Rob is correct about Golden Gate. Years ago I had a hunting camp "technically in Golden Gate" which has been taken over by the state. The property was south of the residential area of Golden Gate and north of the Fakahatchee strand preserve state park. This area is a cold trap that gets visited by frost. You can plant coconuts and they will survive for awhile but not be robust and thriving. A cold event will be their demise before you ever see the nuts in my opinion. The prevailing opinion of west of I-75 has a lot of merit.

Coral Gables, FL 8 miles North of Fairchild USDA Zone 10B

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Xerarch, it's a good thing a project like that wouldn't fly today. Draining wetlands to build houses on is not a good thing, the entire watershed of Florida has been drastically changed by man blocking the natural flow of the water from the okefenokee swamp in Georgia down through the Everglades and into Florida bay. Entire ecosystems unique to small areas have been lost or nearly destroyed through this practice. Florida is doing some work to try to get things flowing again.

thanks for taking that one palm dude I don't think I would of been so nice about that comment. That is a very sore subject with a lot of us
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Bonita Springs is another possibility, land is fairly cheap--here's an example--1.22 acres for $50,000, and it's West of I-75.

http://www.trulia.com/property/3156133309-24167-Melaine-Ln-Bonita-Springs-FL-34135#photo-1

Definitely check out that deal in person before buying. The ad waffles over whether the land is in Bonita or San Carlos. San Carlos is an older area that has had a reputation for crime, renters and blight. Is that still true? I don't know but Bonita Springs itself is higher end than San Carlos and south of Cape Coral.

Meg

Palms of Victory I shall wear

Cape Coral (It's Just Paradise)
Florida
Zone 10A on the Isabelle Canal
Elevation: 15 feet

I'd like to be under the sea in an octopus' garden in the shade.

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As a church we go on the streets of San Carlos Park and meet with people. There are some good parts of San Carlos and some not so good. That is one of the reasons we go out there to minister with people as it is a "rough" neighborhood. There is quite of bit of crime in some parts of that area.

Lived in Cape Coral, Miami, Orlando and St. Petersburg Florida.

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It looks to be somewhat south of San Carlos Park, closer to Bonita on the map, of course you would have to check it out in person--may not even have utilities, etc. :

post-4141-0-18152900-1417054552_thumb.jp

Edited by displaced_floridian
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All of this tells me that Naples (at least east of US highway 41) is inferior as a coconut-growing region by comparison with Miami, even though Miami is at the same latitude and is directly to the east. There are mature coconut trees all over Miami, no matter how far inland you travel. I suppose the Gulf Stream helps the Miami climate a lot.

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That's right, if you look at averages and extremes for Naples an Miami, Naples has lower nighttime temps in winter and higher daytime temps in summer.

Naples in January: Avg high 75, low 54. Miami, Avg high 76, low 60. Lowest past 20 years--Naples 26 in 1977, Miami 31 in 1977. And inland from Naples is even more extreme. Readings taken from Miami Int'l Airport (about 6 mi. from Biscayne Bay), and Naples Municipal Airport (1.5 mi. from Gulf).

Part of the reason is the prevailing Easterly winds, off the Atlantic on the East coast, and from the Everglades on the West coast.

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This interactive USDA zone map shows a pretty clear difference, parts of Miami make it into zone 11 while the west coast never makes it out of 10a.

post-3058-0-38455200-1417185158_thumb.jp

Corpus Christi, TX, near salt water, zone 9b/10a! Except when it isn't and everything gets nuked.

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Miami,Fort Lauderdale,and West Palm Beach area has a good 30 miles of urban heat island.That also contribute to warmer temps than the west coast of Florida.

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Xerearch, I couldn't resist going online to look at the USDA minimum temperatures map after you posted a photos of it below. I have attached the bottom end of that same USDA map to this post (click on PDF below). It shows not only a warmer southeastern Florida than southwestern Florida when comparing Miami with Naples, but it also shows that the trend continues into the Keys (which contains no urban heat island that can be factored into the equation). That may be why most of the Florida Keys have extreme minimum temperatures in Zone 11B (min. 50 degrees Fahrenheit) all the way to Key West and beyond KW to the Marquesas Keys, FL. Then, surprisingly, several miles farther to the west, you see the Dry Tortugas Islands (Florida) which are not as warm, even though they are at roughly the same latitude as the Lower Keys. The Dry Tortugas Islands are in zone 11A instead of zone 11B. Is this evidence of the same pattern we see when contrasting western Florida with eastern Florida, even down at the level of the Lower Keys. Perhaps the Dry Tortugas simply do not enjoy the same easterly current exposure (Gulf Stream) of the other Florida Keys (?) I have no idea, but can speculate.

We see this same east coast Florida vs. west coast Florida pattern farther north where the New Smyrna Beach climate approximates the Tampa climate, even though Tampa is much further south. We again see the same pattern where the Melbourne/Satellite Beach climate on the east coast approximates the Sarasota or Venice climate on the west coast. I could go on. I am just surprised to notice that this same trend (if it is a trend) appears to affect the Lower Keys relative to the Dry Tortugas islands.

The Dry Tortugas islands have nothing to do with where one should plant coconut trees in Naples, Florida, but it may be all be part of the big picture.

USDA map southern Florida.pdf

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I've noticed the same patterns on the map, including the fact that the dry Tortugas are slightly colder than Key West. I can't think of any reason that that would be the case with the Dry Tortugas, I honestly wonder if that weather station isn't just placed in a slightly colder spot or its a glitch in the programming that extrapolates between stations or something.

Have you noticed that you can click on any given area and it will give you the exact minimum? It's a pretty cool feature, you can question the accuracy but it's pretty cool anyway.

Corpus Christi, TX, near salt water, zone 9b/10a! Except when it isn't and everything gets nuked.

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I have a friend who lives and has a nursery just north of Alligator Alley and between Immokalee and the Indian reservation. To give you an idea of the micro-climate there, not too much different than Golden Gates, all his customers are from central Florida to Texas. He does not bother with much tropicals at all.

So many species,

so little time.

Coconut Creek, Florida

Zone 10b (Zone 11 except for once evey 10 or 20 years)

Last Freeze: 2011,50 Miles North of Fairchilds

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Xerearch, I couldn't resist going online to look at the USDA minimum temperatures map after you posted a photos of it below. I have attached the bottom end of that same USDA map to this post (click on PDF below). It shows not only a warmer southeastern Florida than southwestern Florida when comparing Miami with Naples, but it also shows that the trend continues into the Keys (which contains no urban heat island that can be factored into the equation). That may be why most of the Florida Keys have extreme minimum temperatures in Zone 11B (min. 50 degrees Fahrenheit) all the way to Key West and beyond KW to the Marquesas Keys, FL. Then, surprisingly, several miles farther to the west, you see the Dry Tortugas Islands (Florida) which are not as warm, even though they are at roughly the same latitude as the Lower Keys. The Dry Tortugas Islands are in zone 11A instead of zone 11B. Is this evidence of the same pattern we see when contrasting western Florida with eastern Florida, even down at the level of the Lower Keys. Perhaps the Dry Tortugas simply do not enjoy the same easterly current exposure (Gulf Stream) of the other Florida Keys (?) I have no idea, but can speculate.

We see this same east coast Florida vs. west coast Florida pattern farther north where the New Smyrna Beach climate approximates the Tampa climate, even though Tampa is much further south. We again see the same pattern where the Melbourne/Satellite Beach climate on the east coast approximates the Sarasota or Venice climate on the west coast. I could go on. I am just surprised to notice that this same trend (if it is a trend) appears to affect the Lower Keys relative to the Dry Tortugas islands.

The Dry Tortugas islands have nothing to do with where one should plant coconut trees in Naples, Florida, but it may be all be part of the big picture.

It is an error on the map. The Dry Tortugas is warmest place in the State with regard to minimum temperatures. I still like my map better:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/41649-most-northerly-area-of-florida-considered-zone-10b10a-and-9b/#entry644018

Brevard County, Fl

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Xerearch, I couldn't resist going online to look at the USDA minimum temperatures map after you posted a photos of it below. I have attached the bottom end of that same USDA map to this post (click on PDF below). It shows not only a warmer southeastern Florida than southwestern Florida when comparing Miami with Naples, but it also shows that the trend continues into the Keys (which contains no urban heat island that can be factored into the equation). That may be why most of the Florida Keys have extreme minimum temperatures in Zone 11B (min. 50 degrees Fahrenheit) all the way to Key West and beyond KW to the Marquesas Keys, FL. Then, surprisingly, several miles farther to the west, you see the Dry Tortugas Islands (Florida) which are not as warm, even though they are at roughly the same latitude as the Lower Keys. The Dry Tortugas Islands are in zone 11A instead of zone 11B. Is this evidence of the same pattern we see when contrasting western Florida with eastern Florida, even down at the level of the Lower Keys. Perhaps the Dry Tortugas simply do not enjoy the same easterly current exposure (Gulf Stream) of the other Florida Keys (?) I have no idea, but can speculate.

We see this same east coast Florida vs. west coast Florida pattern farther north where the New Smyrna Beach climate approximates the Tampa climate, even though Tampa is much further south. We again see the same pattern where the Melbourne/Satellite Beach climate on the east coast approximates the Sarasota or Venice climate on the west coast. I could go on. I am just surprised to notice that this same trend (if it is a trend) appears to affect the Lower Keys relative to the Dry Tortugas islands.

The Dry Tortugas islands have nothing to do with where one should plant coconut trees in Naples, Florida, but it may be all be part of the big picture.

It is an error on the map. The Dry Tortugas is warmest place in the State with regard to minimum temperatures. I still like my map better:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/41649-most-northerly-area-of-florida-considered-zone-10b10a-and-9b/#entry644018

Agreed! IMHO this newfangled USDA map is largely junk, particularly in outlying areas, despite the hooplah over its supposed accuracy. I see gross errors all over (though of course any supposedly reliable climate map in a continental climate falls down due to the uselessness of its average temps and crazy standard deviations). I do suspect that the folks at Oregon State may have handed the mapmaking duties over to their lab monkeys.

BTW, there is no weather station in the Marquesas or at Fort Jefferson, just a buoy at Frigate Shoals lighthouse and I'm not sure how long that has even been in service. The Tortugas are definitely the warmest spot. Here in the Keys we are all subject to the same easterlies in NORMAL conditions. The difference is that averages are dragged down by cold air intrusions brought on northerly winds associated with cold fronts. It's all about cold air drainage from the mainland and hence only the middle and upper keys are subject to the related cold. From Bahia Honda to Fort Jefferson there is only the Gulf, and cold is heavily moderated. The Tortugas are of course the warmest though in reality the entire stretch from Bahia Honda westward is extremely uniform in terms of winter minima.

Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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All of this tells me that Naples (at least east of US highway 41) is inferior as a coconut-growing region by comparison with Miami, even though Miami is at the same latitude and is directly to the east. There are mature coconut trees all over Miami, no matter how far inland you travel. I suppose the Gulf Stream helps the Miami climate a lot.

Comparing Miami to Naples, they are not even the same latitude. Naples is more like mid northern Broward County. Miami is about the mid latitude of Miami Dade County. The Gulf Stream moves down and around Key West before heading up the Easy Coast. The waters have the opportunity to warm up making that trek. Yes all the concrete and heavy traffic creates a heat island as well. I'm 2.5 miles south of Miami International Airport and 8 miles due north of Fairchild Tropical Botanical Garden. My lows are consistently 4 degrees F warmer then Fairchild, Look how much cooler Homestead and outlying areas are compared to Miami although its proximity to the Florida Keys is much closer.

Coral Gables, FL 8 miles North of Fairchild USDA Zone 10B

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