Palms that thrive on Limestone

[_Keith]

Which palms grow exceptionally well on Limestone? When thinking about why Richard Josephson's Everglades palm might be in a steady multi-year decline, it hit me that everywhere I had seen this palm flourish was on limestone, so that got me to thinking, what other palms would maybe require the addition of lime in certain places.

So, help me list the palms that thrive in lime? Should be a cinch to list for the mid to south Florida folks who essentially live on a limestone shelf.

[Palmə häl′ik]

Cyphophoenix nucele and Pseudophoenix aka Buccaneer Palm

[redbeard917]

Probably an obvious answer, but here are some Sabals (and cedars...there is another Sabal right behind the cedar too) colonizing a rocky outcrop in the salt marsh in St. Marks, FL. It is most likely some carbonate rock, if not limestone exactly. Old Indian mounds are usually covered with hundreds of volunteer Sabals as well, even when they are absent on surrounding terrain. I suspect it is due to the high shell content in the soil. Sea shells contain Calcium carbonate (CaCO3), the same mineral that makes up limestone.

[mnorell]

Keith, are you sure you've seen Acoelorrhaphe thriving on limestone? They may be sitting above limestone, but I'm pretty sure they are almost always found naturally growing in wet, swampy places filled with rich, black, acid-to-neutral muck (e.g., in the Everglades). When planted directly on limestone with little or no amendment (as here in the Florida Keys), and without the 60+ inches of acidic rain common on the southeast Florida mainland, they often suffer terribly from micronutrient deficiencies, Manganese/frizzletop, chlorosis, etc. Many specimens I've seen down here in the Keys look bad. No doubt due to the failure of their caretakers to continually amend with suitable micronutrients and acidifiers. I have seen gorgeous specimens at hotels in Miami and Coral Gables, at Fairchild, et al. but these are generally pampered and heavily maintained, and as I mentioned above, they get significantly more and predictably well-distributed rain supplies to temper the alkalinity. My guess is that they will tolerate a certain amount of alkalinity but once it passes a moderate point, trouble follows. I have a specimen at my garden up in Mississippi that is growing beautifully on pretty much black, acid soil. It returns quickly from defoliation after severe winters in the upper teens with many hours of freezing temps, has good leaf-color, but it certainly doesn't have an alkaline environment.

[_Keith]

Keith, are you sure you've seen Acoelorrhaphe thriving on limestone? They may be sitting above limestone, but I'm pretty sure they are almost always found naturally growing in wet, swampy places filled with rich, black, acid-to-neutral muck (e.g., in the Everglades). When planted directly on limestone with little or no amendment (as here in the Florida Keys), and without the 60+ inches of acidic rain common on the southeast Florida mainland, they often suffer terribly from micronutrient deficiencies, Manganese/frizzletop, chlorosis, etc. Many specimens I've seen down here in the Keys look bad. No doubt due to the failure of their caretakers to continually amend with suitable micronutrients and acidifiers. I have seen gorgeous specimens at hotels in Miami and Coral Gables, at Fairchild, et al. but these are generally pampered and heavily maintained, and as I mentioned above, they get significantly more and predictably well-distributed rain supplies to temper the alkalinity. My guess is that they will tolerate a certain amount of alkalinity but once it passes a moderate point, trouble follows. I have a specimen at my garden up in Mississippi that is growing beautifully on pretty much black, acid soil. It returns quickly from defoliation after severe winters in the upper teens with many hours of freezing temps, has good leaf-color, but it certainly doesn't have an alkaline environment.

Michael, no matter what is done above, those roots will reach lime and have plenty of it. My thought is that the amendments do more to hold fresh water moisture, and provide the other nutrients it needs through both decomposition and fertilizers. Anyone who takes the trouble to mulch a palm is most likely giving it a good fertilizer regimen as well. At least those are my thoughts. But alas, I am no expert, hence the question.

Oh, and this thought also came from the only truly healthy absolutely beautiful one I have seen in S. Louisiana was planted right in the middle of a limestone parking lot, Limestone was over a foot deep, and the palm was loving it.

[mnorell]

Hopefully some of the south Florida landscape professionals on this forum, who have no doubt spent a good deal of time with Acoelorrhaphe, will comment more definitively on the topic. I have scratched my head over this many times. Perhaps it is just more complex and doesn't have everything to do with alkaline vs. acid, though I've googled it a bit and it's commonly stated that alkaline soil causes nutrient deficiencies in this species. BTW I remember seeing a nice one in a front yard in the Carrollton/Audubon Park area of uptown New Orleans, I think on St. Charles, if memory serves.

[amazon exotics]

some cocothrinax

[ghar41]

Keith, are you sure you've seen Acoelorrhaphe thriving on limestone? They may be sitting above limestone, but I'm pretty sure they are almost always found naturally growing in wet, swampy places filled with rich, black, acid-to-neutral muck (e.g., in the Everglades). When planted directly on limestone with little or no amendment (as here in the Florida Keys), and without the 60+ inches of acidic rain common on the southeast Florida mainland, they often suffer terribly from micronutrient deficiencies, Manganese/frizzletop, chlorosis, etc. Many specimens I've seen down here in the Keys look bad. No doubt due to the failure of their caretakers to continually amend with suitable micronutrients and acidifiers. I have seen gorgeous specimens at hotels in Miami and Coral Gables, at Fairchild, et al. but these are generally pampered and heavily maintained, and as I mentioned above, they get significantly more and predictably well-distributed rain supplies to temper the alkalinity. My guess is that they will tolerate a certain amount of alkalinity but once it passes a moderate point, trouble follows. I have a specimen at my garden up in Mississippi that is growing beautifully on pretty much black, acid soil. It returns quickly from defoliation after severe winters in the upper teens with many hours of freezing temps, has good leaf-color, but it certainly doesn't have an alkaline environment.

This is a good point. Mine grows slowly in my alkaline soil and does better with amendments...including pine bark mulch, and iron supplements in an effort to drive down the ph

[_Keith]

Keith, are you sure you've seen Acoelorrhaphe thriving on limestone? They may be sitting above limestone, but I'm pretty sure they are almost always found naturally growing in wet, swampy places filled with rich, black, acid-to-neutral muck (e.g., in the Everglades). When planted directly on limestone with little or no amendment (as here in the Florida Keys), and without the 60+ inches of acidic rain common on the southeast Florida mainland, they often suffer terribly from micronutrient deficiencies, Manganese/frizzletop, chlorosis, etc. Many specimens I've seen down here in the Keys look bad. No doubt due to the failure of their caretakers to continually amend with suitable micronutrients and acidifiers. I have seen gorgeous specimens at hotels in Miami and Coral Gables, at Fairchild, et al. but these are generally pampered and heavily maintained, and as I mentioned above, they get significantly more and predictably well-distributed rain supplies to temper the alkalinity. My guess is that they will tolerate a certain amount of alkalinity but once it passes a moderate point, trouble follows. I have a specimen at my garden up in Mississippi that is growing beautifully on pretty much black, acid soil. It returns quickly from defoliation after severe winters in the upper teens with many hours of freezing temps, has good leaf-color, but it certainly doesn't have an alkaline environment.

This is a good point. Mine grows slowly in my alkaline soil and does better with amendments...including cedar mulch, and iron supplements in an effort to drive down the ph

This is very interesting. What did your soil test at prior to amendment? And at the bottom of the planting hole where the roots are, what does it test at now?

[ghar41]

Keith, are you sure you've seen Acoelorrhaphe thriving on limestone? They may be sitting above limestone, but I'm pretty sure they are almost always found naturally growing in wet, swampy places filled with rich, black, acid-to-neutral muck (e.g., in the Everglades). When planted directly on limestone with little or no amendment (as here in the Florida Keys), and without the 60+ inches of acidic rain common on the southeast Florida mainland, they often suffer terribly from micronutrient deficiencies, Manganese/frizzletop, chlorosis, etc. Many specimens I've seen down here in the Keys look bad. No doubt due to the failure of their caretakers to continually amend with suitable micronutrients and acidifiers. I have seen gorgeous specimens at hotels in Miami and Coral Gables, at Fairchild, et al. but these are generally pampered and heavily maintained, and as I mentioned above, they get significantly more and predictably well-distributed rain supplies to temper the alkalinity. My guess is that they will tolerate a certain amount of alkalinity but once it passes a moderate point, trouble follows. I have a specimen at my garden up in Mississippi that is growing beautifully on pretty much black, acid soil. It returns quickly from defoliation after severe winters in the upper teens with many hours of freezing temps, has good leaf-color, but it certainly doesn't have an alkaline environment.

This is a good point. Mine grows slowly in my alkaline soil and does better with amendments...including cedar mulch, and iron supplements in an effort to drive down the ph

This is very interesting. What did your soil test at prior to amendment? And at the bottom of the planting hole where the roots are, what does it test at now?

That should read pine bark mulch. My ph is 7.2-7.3 which is not highly alkaline but I think Acceloraphe does better here with the addition of soil amendments. I also use coffee grounds. I have noticed over time that it is growing faster, the leaves are becoming a deeper green and nutritional deficiencies have become less pronounced. Also, it helps keep it more consistently moist. Growing it here on bare ground that dried between waterings was futile.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I think you might be confusing a palm's higher requirements for calcium and magnesium with it's pH requirements. All these palms might tolerate higher pH but what they're really after are rock minetals. In the case of the everglades palm, since it's a swamp lover it surely prefers acidic soil AND extra calcium.

[_Keith]

I think you might be confusing a palm's higher requirements for calcium and magnesium with it's pH requirements. All these palms might tolerate higher pH but what they're really after are rock minetals. In the case of the everglades palm, since it's a swamp lover it surely prefers acidic soil AND extra calcium.

. Note - I never mentioned ph.

[mnorell]

Axel, I think what you're talking about is the balance between Calcium carbonate and Calcium bicarbonate? We are on oolitic limestone here in the Lower Keys, and thus it is almost entirely Calcium carbonate deposited and aggregated from the bits of old sloughed (or parrotfish-crunched) coral skeletons. What you say (or what I think you're saying) is an interesting idea...I understand it in terms of corals in the ocean and their need for the availability of "free" calcium (Calcium bicarbonate) to build more of their Calcium carbonate skeleton...but I am way out of my league in understanding exactly how this works in the mechanics of plant metabolism. But one thing I just found in the book Tree Islands of the Everglades might shed some light: "interior mahogany hammocks" and their "organic soils here, nearly twice as deep as the soils in hammocks of Long Pine Key, overlay marl instead of limestone...Mahogany hammocks reveal their coastal affinities in the presence of such species as Acoelorrhaphe wrightii and Eugenia foetida...both absent from the hammocks of Long Pine Key." According to Wikipedia, most marl substrate is composed primarily of calcite, whereas we are generally on oolite or aragonite in the Keys. But those Everglades hammocks are also the home of West Indian Mahogany, which is also native here in the Keys and grows like crazy (the primary weed I have to pull around my property...they volunteer everywhere!). Methinks Mahogany is a lot more tolerant of our substrate here than is Acoelorrhaphe.

I am no chemistry expert and so it's a bit confusing to me but perhaps it does have something to do with the type of calcium around the root-zone. Again, hopefully somebody who is utterly familiar with this species can bring some clear info to the table.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I see nothing in any cultivation guides suggesting that the paroti needs any special nutrients. Seems to be relatively care free.

[mnorell]

I see nothing in any cultivation guides suggesting that the paroti needs any special nutrients. Seems to be relatively care free.

Axel, there are numerous references in re this species suffering from deficiencies (particularly Manganese) in highly alkaline soils. As an example, from the summer 2007 edition of Florida Arborist: "Manganese deficiency is very common on alkaline soils, but can occur in containers if drainage is poor or soil temperatures are cool. Most species of palms can be affected, but Syagrus romanzoffiana (queen palm), Acoelorrhaphe wrightii (paurotis palm), Phoenix roebelenii (pygmy date palm), and Elaeis guineensis (African oil palm) are particularly susceptible." This is also documented in multiple publications from the University of Florida. UF's Edward Gilman, in his book Trees for Urban and Suburban Landscapes, writes that "Paurotis Palm is susceptible to chlorosis from micronutrient deficiencies (especially manganese) when grown in soil with a high pH. It may also show deficiencies of potassium in sandy soils unless appropriate fertilizers are applied regularly..."

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I see nothing in any cultivation guides suggesting that the paroti needs any special nutrients. Seems to be relatively care free.

Axel, there are numerous references in re this species suffering from deficiencies (particularly Manganese) in highly alkaline soils. As an example, from the summer 2007 edition of Florida Arborist: "Manganese deficiency is very common on alkaline soils, but can occur in containers if drainage is poor or soil temperatures are cool. Most species of palms can be affected, but Syagrus romanzoffiana (queen palm), Acoelorrhaphe wrightii (paurotis palm), Phoenix roebelenii (pygmy date palm), and Elaeis guineensis (African oil palm) are particularly susceptible." This is also documented in multiple publications from the University of Florida. UF's Edward Gilman, in his book Trees for Urban and Suburban Landscapes, writes that "Paurotis Palm is susceptible to chlorosis from micronutrient deficiencies (especially manganese) when grown in soil with a high pH. It may also show deficiencies of potassium in sandy soils unless appropriate fertilizers are applied regularly..."

I did read about the manganese deficiency. I was trying to highlight that this palm doesn't seem to need any sort of lime rock to grow. I don't think the paroti qualifies as a lime rock lover like a brahea dulcis does.

[_Keith]

Well, I am no expert. What I do know about Lime is that farmers here add it to our clay soils, which do run a little on the acid side, every 2 or 3 years. I do the same in my vegetable garden and the result is noticeable. The intent is never to raise the soil ph above neutral just to bring it a up a little closer to it, which unlocks many other nutrients already present. Many nutrient deficiencies can be caused not by their lacking, but by the ph locking up their availability for the plants to use them. I also use ashes for the same purpose. That has worked great for my few known alkaline lovers.

What I like about Limestone, as a mulch, is the slow leaching over time.

Boron has the most interesting curve below, and phosphorus is not far off. Bottom line, ph is the most important thing to measure in the garden, at least IMHO. But I still wonder with Limestone if there is something else going on.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Keith, you're confusing agricultural lime with limestone. The two are not the same. Agricultural lime is usually dolomite lime, which is mainly Calcium and Magnesium Carbonate. These are incredible buffer agents, bringing any soil towards neutral from either a high or low pH. And it provides lots of calcium and magnesium, two essentials for both veggies and palms.

Limestone, in contrast is highly alkaline and will bring pH way up.

[_Keith]

Keith, you're confusing agricultural lime with limestone. The two are not the same. Agricultural lime is usually dolomite lime, which is mainly Calcium and Magnesium Carbonate. These are incredible buffer agents, bringing any soil towards neutral from either a high or low pH. And it provides lots of calcium and magnesium, two essentials for both veggies and palms.

Limestone, in contrast is highly alkaline and will bring pH way up.

I have no confusion at all between the two.

[Explorer]

Trachycarpus princeps, Chamaerops, Phoenix theophrastii.

Alexander

[_Keith]

Trachycarpus princeps, Chamaerops, Phoenix theophrastii.

Alexander

P. theophrastii? Excellent, and explains why mine are struggling. Thank you. I'll pull out with the pelletized lime tomorrow. Could also explain why I have trouble getting Chamerops established.

[Neil C]

Guihayaia argyrata

Regards Neil