Lemurophoenix halleuxii Seedling Speeding Along In The Ground

[Jim in Los Altos]

I've taken plenty of grief from soooo many out there about this palm's prospects here that my ears are on fire. Despite that, I'm enjoying this palm so much as it continues to grow at, what I would consider, a rapid pace. I planted this palm as a two leaf seedling in late March or early April and it's now a solid four leafer with a new leaf opening right now. It would be five leaves but the oldest has been shed recently. That's three new leaves since planting it in the ground which is about 4 1/2 months ago. I will do whatever is necessary to keep it going through the winter months.

[Kostas]

Very nice Jim,great growth!!! Mine arrived with only part of one leaf alive but a nice spear and it has been settling in well and growing much faster than I would expect. Hope to ground plant it this year or the next,didn't get to it this month.

[Tyrone]

Jim, if their is anyone who can grow it in your climate successfully it is you. Your Marojejya darianii looks like it's growing in Madagascar, all perfect looking and smug like.

[Jim in Los Altos]

Jim, if their is anyone who can grow it in your climate successfully it is you. Your Marojejya darianii looks like it's growing in Madagascar, all perfect looking and smug like.

Oh yeah, the M. darianii is truly an experiment too. It has been steadily growing too but not nearly as fast as the Lemurophonix. It seems very happy for now.

[Darold Petty]

I sense Pauleen Sullivan hovering over Jim's shoulder !!

[DoomsDave]

Hover pauleen, dear

and

Jim

Keep us apprized

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Jim, who told you these don't grow in the Bay Area's Summer weather? This is a coolish grower that would probably even grow in Berkeley's Summer weather. But the problem isn't the Summer, it's the Winter. Let us know how it fares next year, it would be great if you can keep it from croaking in Norcal's extensive chill hours below 45F during the Winter. Los Altos clocks around 800-1000 chill hours, maybe put a little heater on it.

[Jim in Los Altos]

Jim, who told you these don't grow in the Bay Area's Summer weather? This is a coolish grower that would probably even grow in Berkeley's Summer weather. But the problem isn't the Summer, it's the Winter. Let us know how it fares next year, it would be great if you can keep it from croaking in Norcal's extensive chill hours below 45F during the Winter. Los Altos clocks around 800-1000 chill hours, maybe put a little heater on it.

Axel, the lowlands of Los Altos and the northeast side might possibly have that many chill hours but that's about double what I have here in south Los Altos and at my 300+ foot elevation. No one told me it wouldn't grow during the warm season here, just that these are slow as molasses which, so far, isn't my experience. What I was referring to is that so many have said it's impossible to grow in our cool season. That's why I wrote that I would do what's necessary to keep it happy in the winter. Many years we have so few chill hours that apple, pear and many other disiduous fruit trees don't produce fruit around here. Our nighttime lows in the winter are significantly higher than those in Santa Cruz for instance.

[LJG]

Jim, you are a seasoned grower, you should know about "Marcus momentum" man After one year in the ground through a cool soil period, tropical palms can stagnate until soil temps warm up again. Axel use to poke fun at the term "green house momentum", but I have a read a few post where he sees what people meant by this now. I am not saying this palm won't live for you, but if it does I wouldn't expect 3 leaves next year from it. I can tell you from experience this palm is slow as hell here once it gets a dose of reality and spends a winter in the ground.

Good luck! Unfortunately winter is approaching

[Jim in Los Altos]

Jim, you are a seasoned grower, you should know about "Marcus momentum" man After one year in the ground through a cool soil period, tropical palms can stagnate until soil temps warm up again. Axel use to poke fun at the term "green house momentum", but I have a read a few post where he sees what people meant by this now. I am not saying this palm won't live for you, but if it does I wouldn't expect 3 leaves next year from it. I can tell you from experience this palm is slow as hell here once it gets a dose of reality and spends a winter in the ground.

Good luck! Unfortunately winter is approaching

Len, you probably are right but I would be foolish not to at least try. I've been buying palms from Floribunda for years and have never experienced this "Marcus momentum." in fact most of what I've purchased grew considerably faster after establishing with a few exceptions such as certain Pinanga species for instance. I've said it before but if I only planted what I was told by others would grow here over the years, I'd now only have half the species I have in the ground.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Jim, who told you these don't grow in the Bay Area's Summer weather? This is a coolish grower that would probably even grow in Berkeley's Summer weather. But the problem isn't the Summer, it's the Winter. Let us know how it fares next year, it would be great if you can keep it from croaking in Norcal's extensive chill hours below 45F during the Winter. Los Altos clocks around 800-1000 chill hours, maybe put a little heater on it.

Axel, the lowlands of Los Altos and the northeast side might possibly have that many chill hours but that's about double what I have here in south Los Altos and at my 300+ foot elevation. No one told me it wouldn't grow during the warm season here, just that these are slow as molasses which, so far, isn't my experience. What I was referring to is that so many have said it's impossible to grow in our cool season. That's why I wrote that I would do what's necessary to keep it happy in the winter. Many years we have so few chill hours that apple, pear and many other disiduous fruit trees don't produce fruit around here. Our nighttime lows in the winter are significantly higher than those in Santa Cruz for instance.

Jim, my only criticism I have is that you are seeing your climate through rose colored glasses. I think you could be quite successful with lemurophoenix if you acknowledged the limitations and worked with them, but I am skeptical when I see how over-confident you are with this palm.

In regards to your climate, all my CRFG friends that live up in the Los Altos/Mountain View area tell me about the abundance of chill. The whole area used to be orchards as far as the eye can see. You can grow just about anything, and the chill count actually goes up with elevation even if the risk of a freeze goes down. It's the same in the Santa Cruz Mountains. The freezes are actually more damaging near the water but the chill accumulation there is quite low. As you move inland and up the hills into the thermal belts, the chances for a freeze diminish but the chill accumulations rise rapidly with elevation. The best thermal belts up near Reston Rd rarely freeze but chill is through the roof with even daytime chill accumulation because of the elevation.

My understanding is that lemurophoenix has been grown with limited success (it grows for a few years) in those parts of San Diego where the Winter average low is 49F, but as soon as you head inland even a little, it croaks from even the couple of hundred of hours of chill there. But if your garden is exempt of the standard Northern California limitations and is even better than Vista, then you should have no problems growing lemurophoenix.

Len is right about the Floribunda momentum. Marginal palms grow gangbusters the first season, and after a Winter, things settle down to the known California paces. Palms from Floribunda that are not marginal do not experience this phenomena. I can illustrate with two distinct dypsis species. I purchased a dypsis utilis that kept growing like a weed until Winter. It shut down in November, and nothing happened until July. It's just now starting to resume a decent clip. In contrast, dypsis ambositrae barely slowed down and continued to grow at a fast clip, because it's not marginal in our climate.

My theory is that the cold soil from low sun angles (even in Socal) takes a toll on the roots. I just spent a chunk of time today re-potting a number of tropical palms. It's quite easy to see the Winter root die off and where the Summer growth resumed. This is why it's a good idea to grow a marginal to some size first. With a much bigger root mass, the palm will resume growing a lot sooner. For a lemurophoenix to stand a chance here, it needs to be brought up to a 15g size first in a greenhouse with at least a heat bench during the shortest days of the year.

[LJG]

Jim, you are a seasoned grower, you should know about "Marcus momentum" man After one year in the ground through a cool soil period, tropical palms can stagnate until soil temps warm up again. Axel use to poke fun at the term "green house momentum", but I have a read a few post where he sees what people meant by this now. I am not saying this palm won't live for you, but if it does I wouldn't expect 3 leaves next year from it. I can tell you from experience this palm is slow as hell here once it gets a dose of reality and spends a winter in the ground.

Good luck! Unfortunately winter is approaching

Len, you probably are right but I would be foolish not to at least try. I've been buying palms from Floribunda for years and have never experienced this "Marcus momentum." in fact most of what I've purchased grew considerably faster after establishing with a few exceptions such as certain Pinanga species for instance. I've said it before but if I only planted what I was told by others would grow here over the years, I'd now only have half the species I have in the ground.

I have never read anyone tell you that you couldn't grow something. I think your past results speak for themselves. I have read post where people cautioned you on expectations. But I get that all the time as well. One thing I will say is that I have followed your garden ever since I came to PT (as it is one of my favorites) and your pallet has changed. The more really tropical palms you try to grow like Lemurophoenix halleuxii, the more you will see that what you get from Marcus the first year of growth will be nothing like the following years.

On a side note, have you tried Prestoea ensiformis "Entire Leaf"?. Marcus sells these and this is a very tropical looking palm that has made it two winters in my yard without any winter struggles. It could be a real winner for you as you have more humidity.

[BS Man about Palms]

Kudos to you Jim for marching on!

May we BOTH be smiling as we achieve some Californy palm glory...

[Jim in Los Altos]

THANK YOU BILL! It's nice to see some positivity in writing here. Two thumbs up!

[Jim in Los Altos]

Jim, you are a seasoned grower, you should know about "Marcus momentum" man After one year in the ground through a cool soil period, tropical palms can stagnate until soil temps warm up again. Axel use to poke fun at the term "green house momentum", but I have a read a few post where he sees what people meant by this now. I am not saying this palm won't live for you, but if it does I wouldn't expect 3 leaves next year from it. I can tell you from experience this palm is slow as hell here once it gets a dose of reality and spends a winter in the ground.

Good luck! Unfortunately winter is approaching

Len, you probably are right but I would be foolish not to at least try. I've been buying palms from Floribunda for years and have never experienced this "Marcus momentum." in fact most of what I've purchased grew considerably faster after establishing with a few exceptions such as certain Pinanga species for instance. I've said it before but if I only planted what I was told by others would grow here over the years, I'd now only have half the species I have in the ground.

I have never read anyone tell you that you couldn't grow something. I think your past results speak for themselves. I have read post where people cautioned you on expectations. But I get that all the time as well. One thing I will say is that I have followed your garden ever since I came to PT (as it is one of my favorites) and your pallet has changed. The more really tropical palms you try to grow like Lemurophoenix halleuxii, the more you will see that what you get from Marcus the first year of growth will be nothing like the following years.

On a side note, have you tried Prestoea ensiformis "Entire Leaf"?. Marcus sells these and this is a very tropical looking palm that has made it two winters in my yard without any winter struggles. It could be a real winner for you as you have more humidity.

Len, I didn't write that other people here on PalmTalk have specifically said I can't grow this or I can't grow that. I've been told by many people to my face that I can't grow certain things. I can't tell you the satisfaction when I show them exactly what they said can't be done is being done. I had several nurserymen over to my garden in May and all of them were flittering around my yard saying "You're growing this here?" "You're growing that up here." "No way, this is impossible." All stuff like that and it made me think these guys are in a huge horticultural rut. I grew a Clinostigma ponapence to trunking from a seedling several years ago in a shaded position and it only grew about five months out of the year producing maybe two leaves a year until 2007's freeze when it went unprotected. I think Lemurophoenix is similar in requirements except that it will grow with less heat and I will protect it when necessary.

[Jim in Los Altos]

Jim, who told you these don't grow in the Bay Area's Summer weather? This is a coolish grower that would probably even grow in Berkeley's Summer weather. But the problem isn't the Summer, it's the Winter. Let us know how it fares next year, it would be great if you can keep it from croaking in Norcal's extensive chill hours below 45F during the Winter. Los Altos clocks around 800-1000 chill hours, maybe put a little heater on it.

Axel, the lowlands of Los Altos and the northeast side might possibly have that many chill hours but that's about double what I have here in south Los Altos and at my 300+ foot elevation. No one told me it wouldn't grow during the warm season here, just that these are slow as molasses which, so far, isn't my experience. What I was referring to is that so many have said it's impossible to grow in our cool season. That's why I wrote that I would do what's necessary to keep it happy in the winter. Many years we have so few chill hours that apple, pear and many other disiduous fruit trees don't produce fruit around here. Our nighttime lows in the winter are significantly higher than those in Santa Cruz for instance.

Jim, my only criticism I have is that you are seeing your climate through rose colored glasses. I think you could be quite successful with lemurophoenix if you acknowledged the limitations and worked with them, but I am skeptical when I see how over-confident you are with this palm.

In regards to your climate, all my CRFG friends that live up in the Los Altos/Mountain View area tell me about the abundance of chill. The whole area used to be orchards as far as the eye can see. You can grow just about anything, and the chill count actually goes up with elevation even if the risk of a freeze goes down. It's the same in the Santa Cruz Mountains. The freezes are actually more damaging near the water but the chill accumulation there is quite low. As you move inland and up the hills into the thermal belts, the chances for a freeze diminish but the chill accumulations rise rapidly with elevation. The best thermal belts up near Reston Rd rarely freeze but chill is through the roof with even daytime chill accumulation because of the elevation.

My understanding is that lemurophoenix has been grown with limited success (it grows for a few years) in those parts of San Diego where the Winter average low is 49F, but as soon as you head inland even a little, it croaks from even the couple of hundred of hours of chill there. But if your garden is exempt of the standard Northern California limitations and is even better than Vista, then you should have no problems growing lemurophoenix.

Len is right about the Floribunda momentum. Marginal palms grow gangbusters the first season, and after a Winter, things settle down to the known California paces. Palms from Floribunda that are not marginal do not experience this phenomena. I can illustrate with two distinct dypsis species. I purchased a dypsis utilis that kept growing like a weed until Winter. It shut down in November, and nothing happened until July. It's just now starting to resume a decent clip. In contrast, dypsis ambositrae barely slowed down and continued to grow at a fast clip, because it's not marginal in our climate.

My theory is that the cold soil from low sun angles (even in Socal) takes a toll on the roots. I just spent a chunk of time today re-potting a number of tropical palms. It's quite easy to see the Winter root die off and where the Summer growth resumed. This is why it's a good idea to grow a marginal to some size first. With a much bigger root mass, the palm will resume growing a lot sooner. For a lemurophoenix to stand a chance here, it needs to be brought up to a 15g size first in a greenhouse with at least a heat bench during the shortest days of the year.

At 300 feet elevation I'm high enough for there to be some cold air drainage but certainly not high enough for the increased chill hours you mentioned. You're talking 900, 1,000, 1,200 feet. Now you've got some elevation induced chill. I guess I've been wearing these "rose colored glasses" too long, several decades I estimate. Except for three years in Chicago, I've lived in the South Bay region 53 of my 56 years so I'm doing things based on personal experience rather than what someone just reports as fact. Deciduous fruit orchards had some good years and some really bad years in this area. Apricots were the main orchard fruit here. Apples were tried and production proved not good enough. Walnuts and almonds don't need much chill and lots of orchards here produced those nuts. Now that the orchards are gone and the asphalt and building heat island effect is on, it's avocados and citrus that rule the roost in home gardens here. The apricots trees are long gone but lots of the old walnut and almond trees remain.

I don't grow much in pots because there is way too much soil temperature fluctuation and stress. I grew my Roystonea boriquena in the ground from a two inch seedling to over 15 feet tall and trunking in a mostly winter shaded spot. The ones in pots didn't fare well at all. Same with my Dictospema album. It went straight into the ground last year as a tiny seedling and has produced three leaves this summer and an emerging spear. Yeah it spotted a bit in December but the ones in pots in the green house (cold frame)...dead.

I guess we all have our theories and methods. Most of us are frequently trying to improve our chances with plants that come from climates different from ours. Some of us don't want to take chances and stick with the tried and true. I like taking these chances. It gives me much pleasure and if a plant doesn't make it it's okay. If it does, then clap we our hands.

[NApalm]

Go hard jim. I know im in a very different climate but if it means anything to you, mine shocked me with how quick it grew in summer (with plenty of water) and while it slowed in my winter (right now) it still didn't miss a beat and kept pushing a spear, albeit a little slower, but no yellowing or spotting. I've never been to cali, so I dont have much of an idea on your climate, but as you Americans say, I'm rooting for you.

Edited August 18, 2014 by NApalm

[Alicehunter2000]

Half the fun is pushing the envelope ...... Axel, didn't you have the "Grand Dypsis Experiment" going on last year?

I know you are just trying to warn Jim not to get his heart broken ..... but I think he knows the risks and is ok with it....much like your experiment. The micro climate discussion is interesting because it involves all these extreme changes in elevation.

BTW ..... Dypsis decipiens has been cruising through summer here......supposedly another no go species for the humid southeast.

[Pando]

Jim - that's awesome. It must be that sewer line; some really hot stuff going in there...

You have definitely given me inspiration what can be done. I'm about 3 miles south from Mardy's jungle, on a west-facing hill, over a canyon. I've only been at my current location for about a year, but I can tell that the microclimate here is amazing. I will get my own Floribundle soon enough.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Half the fun is pushing the envelope ...... Axel, didn't you have the "Grand Dypsis Experiment" going on last year?

I know you are just trying to warn Jim not to get his heart broken ..... but I think he knows the risks and is ok with it....much like your experiment. The micro climate discussion is interesting because it involves all these extreme changes in elevation.

BTW ..... Dypsis decipiens has been cruising through summer here......supposedly another no go species for the humid southeast.

David, I will be the last to discourage anyone from pushing the envelope. I do it all the time myself. It's just that I learned my lesson last Winter with the grand dypsis experiment. The most marginal potted dypsis fared much better than ones planted in the ground at the same size. I have a greenhouse in full sun and a southwest side of the house that gets hot in the Winter. Pots in the heat of the greenhouse or on the southwest side of the house fare much better than stuff in the ground. Pots in the shade fare much worse than the same plants in the ground. Jim's garden is mostly canopy and shade, so I understand his strategy. It's not what I would do, but he seems to have success with it.

But I've changed my strategy. I am following the growing strategies from the old timers (Len, Dean, Darold etc...) and I now grow my marginals to much bigger plants before I put them in the ground. I can push a lot of things in my greenhouse and get at least two years worth of outdoor growth squeezed into one. There just is no comparison, I am not watching a bunch of small stuff die again no matter how cheap you can buy them from Floribunda.

The other mistake I am not making again is to try so many marginals all at once. This Winter, my efforts will focus on only three marginals: marojejya insignis, bentinckia condapanna, and clinostigma savoranium. They will be grown up into nice 15g sizes before they go in the ground. All three are doing well in Socal, so these stand a chance here with some babying. I will not waste my time with m. dariani if even Mr. Dariani can't grow this.

[Stevetoad]

Jim, YOU CANT GROW THAT!!! there now someone said it. Now having said that......i wish you the best of luck and look forward to an update thread next year showing this thing pushing 25 leaves a month.

[trioderob]

its too small to be outside in winter in California unless its in a small greenhouse.

It will die in Jan when the first wet and cold night hits it.

I would re pot it and let it get MUCH bigger before leaving it outside.

I am talking years from now

(yes I did have one that size which croaked - grew and looked great this time of year tho )

it wants to be in a hot humid rain forest - moist and warm with extremely rich organics

Edited August 18, 2014 by trioderob

[comic097]

Good for you Jim, we had our coldest ever day here in Brisbane since records were recorded 2.8 degrees ( 37F) and it hasn't missed a beat, would be pretty boring if you never tried, Good luck

[sgvcns]

" Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all ".

Who would have thought Alfred Lord Tennyson was a palm nut.

A true visionary.

[NApalm]

" Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all ".

Who would have thought Alfred Lord Tennyson was a palm nut.

A true visionary.

Like!

[Gtlevine]

Jim, just get one of those Charleys Greenhouse mini plastic greenhouses, or similar, and put it over the plant for the winter. You can probably keep it happy for several years that way.

[Daryl]

Go you good thing, Go!

What is that little palm trunk next to it that is going to get monstered in a few years?

Mine takes a lot of cool, and (once) some cold down to -1C with hardly a mark on it.

The thing they really dislike is dry soil and dry winds.

Daryl

[Tyrone]

Hey, I'm beginning to think I could grow one here, BUT, they are impossible to find anywhere.

[Mandrew968]

I have been told to my face, in my climate, that I can't grow this palm--GOOD LUCK growing it...

[Jim in Los Altos]

Go you good thing, Go!

What is that little palm trunk next to it that is going to get monstered in a few years?

Mine takes a lot of cool, and (once) some cold down to -1C with hardly a mark on it.

The thing they really dislike is dry soil and dry winds.

Daryl

Daryl, That trunk belongs to a Wodyetia that's about 7 feet tall. I have lots of palms planted practically on top of each other in my landscape and, as long as one is taller than the other, it's attractive and very natural looking. I keep the soil very moist there and I'm fortunate that the air in the Bay Area is relatively moist.

[Sabal Steve]

I have been told to my face, in my climate, that I can't grow this palm--GOOD LUCK growing it...

We're all so glad you're back Andy.

[Jim in Los Altos]

I have been told to my face, in my climate, that I can't grow this palm--GOOD LUCK growing it...

I hope this palm doesn't end up being like a coconut!

[XYZ]

Jim:

I think that it's admirable that you're putting this very beautiful palm on trial in this area and wish you all success but - and hopefully this comment is viewed as untinged by (much) envy or schadenfreude - would add my voice to those who urge you not to get your hopes too high about it surviving here for very long outside of a hothouse. I have grown a number of these from seed in Guatemala City (unheated greenhouse), some to about a 1.20 m or so tall, only to have them blow up in rapid and spectacular fashion following prolonged cold spells during the winter months. Like many "touchy" tropical palms that I have failed with in highland Guatemala, IMO they don't mind freak spells into the low single digits (-C-) for a couple hours or so if they really are just occasional events, but that are followed by rapid warm up and otherwise benign (warm & humid) growing conditions for the rest of the year.

As to local growing conditions so far in 2014 and based on performance of quirky botanicals that I am playing with outdoors at both sites, I would say that the weather has been so benign in Redwood Shores this year that it trumps highland Guatemala's by a wide margin. I am quite convinced that I could have grown a full-sized, potted Cyrtostachys renda unstressed and prospering on my partially shady, open terrace in CA from the very beginning of March on. Not so sure that it would miss the flight to expensive compost heaven by more than a few minutes past November 30th, so I am reluctant to try ;^)

Cheers,

J

[Jim in Los Altos]

Jim:

I think that it's admirable that you're putting this very beautiful palm on trial in this area and wish you all success but - and hopefully this comment is viewed as untinged by (much) envy or schadenfreude - would add my voice to those who urge you not to get your hopes too high about it surviving here for very long outside of a hothouse. I have grown a number of these from seed in Guatemala City (unheated greenhouse), some to about a 1.20 m or so tall, only to have them blow up in rapid and spectacular fashion following prolonged cold spells during the winter months. Like many "touchy" tropical palms that I have failed with in highland Guatemala, IMO they don't mind freak spells into the low single digits (-C-) for a couple hours or so if they really are just occasional events, but that are followed by rapid warm up and otherwise benign (warm & humid) growing conditions for the rest of the year.

As to local growing conditions so far in 2014 and based on performance of quirky botanicals that I am playing with outdoors at both sites, I would say that the weather has been so benign in Redwood Shores this year that it trumps highland Guatemala's by a wide margin. I am quite convinced that I could have grown a full-sized, potted Cyrtostachys renda unstressed and prospering on my partially shady, open terrace in CA from the very beginning of March on. Not so sure that it would miss the flight to expensive compost heaven by more than a few minutes past November 30th, so I am reluctant to try ;^)

Cheers,

J

Jay, how would you say Lemurophoenix compares to something like Dictosperma album? Right now that would be the most tender palm that's overwintered well in my garden.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Jay is saying exactly what I was saying, lemuirophoenix has a tolerance for maybe a total of 25-50 hours of chill per year. They can take 2C in Brisbane for a night because the night time chill is canceled the next day with 20C.

I got my lemuirophoenix last March and I have much cooler growing conditions than Jim. Mine spend all its growing momentum from Floribunda by June and stopped growing all together in our outdoor conditions. It's alive and that's it. In contrast, my dictosperma grew like a weed during the Summer. I rate dictosperma around 200-300 hours of chill at most.

[Jim in Los Altos]

Jay is saying exactly what I was saying, lemuirophoenix has a tolerance for maybe a total of 25-50 hours of chill per year. They can take 2C in Brisbane for a night because the night time chill is canceled the next day with 20C.

I got my lemuirophoenix last March and I have much cooler growing conditions than Jim. Mine spend all its growing momentum from Floribunda by June and stopped growing all together in our outdoor conditions. It's alive and that's it. In contrast, my dictosperma grew like a weed during the Summer. I rate dictosperma around 200-300 hours of chill at most.

Hmm, not what I was hoping to hear. On the other hand, my Lemur is still in high gear growth wise. It's doing so well that it will be sad to see it go into decline by midwinter. I stll plan on giving it extra care to see how far I can push the envelope.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Jay is saying exactly what I was saying, lemuirophoenix has a tolerance for maybe a total of 25-50 hours of chill per year. They can take 2C in Brisbane for a night because the night time chill is canceled the next day with 20C.

I got my lemuirophoenix last March and I have much cooler growing conditions than Jim. Mine spend all its growing momentum from Floribunda by June and stopped growing all together in our outdoor conditions. It's alive and that's it. In contrast, my dictosperma grew like a weed during the Summer. I rate dictosperma around 200-300 hours of chill at most.

Hmm, not what I was hoping to hear. On the other hand, my Lemur is still in high gear growth wise. It's doing so well that it will be sad to see it go into decline by midwinter. I stll plan on giving it extra care to see how far I can push the envelope.

I don't think you should give up on this palm. You have a better shot with lemurophoenix than with m. darianii, although both are probably the most difficult "pushing the envelope" palms you can choose besides a coconut, but if no one tries these up here, we will never know if there is actually a combo of conditions that can get them through cool Bay area Winters. Your lemurophoenix will surely outlast your m. darianii. One thing is for sure, you have much better conditions for this palm between April and October than a lot of California and all of Florida, so if it's got a chance to make it, your garden is about as good of a shot that it will get. It's actually too hot in Florida from what I hear.

I looked up Geoff Stein's comments online, here's what he says:

This is indeed a magnificent palm.. and shows a tad bit of hardiness to cold as those palm nuts who have to have every thing in their collections struggle to keep this alive in California... some manage to do it year after year, but what a slow growing palm!! Still, if they can just get it well established and starting to shoot up some monstrous leaves, it will all be worth it... what a colorful palm!!

You easily qualify as one of "those palm nuts who have to have every thing in their collections", and if yours is actually growing fast, you're obviously ahead of the game.

I have zero chance of getting this to grow here, so mine is going back in the greenhouse, and if it ever does get big, you can have it.

[XYZ]

Jim:

Sorry, but no experience with Dictyosperma. Perhaps heretically, my interest in Mascarene palms is slight; a few of the showier miniature, understory Dypsis spp., Ravenea hildebrandtii and very few others. I was particularly keen on succeeding with Lemurophoenix because - well - it's Lemurophoenix!

OT, but have you trialed (or have interest in) the red/maroon crownshaft forms of Areca vestiaria in your garden? I have grown close to a thousand of them in Guatemala and found that a fair percentage are surprisingly tolerant of mild climatic abuse-prolonged cool/cold, more or less of the type we see here in winter in southern part of the Peninsula. After start in greenhouse, I grew several to near flowering size as potted plants in my Guatemala garden where they certainly saw brief overnight dips into the low single digits during their lifetimes and usually looked great. My source material included seed from a couple commercial sources, as well as 600 x 4" seedlings I got from Jeff in 06 or 07, so I can vouch for the fact that he has the genes for hardiness in his mother stock. Emphasis on the red crownshaft form. Orange and yellow crownshaft A. vestiaria are a dead loss as as a cool-growing subject; die young IME, and are also surprisingly fragile even under purely wet tropical conditions in SW Guatemala. I have seen very nice trunking ones in CRica and Panama, a couple nice ones in Guat, but all in all find them nearly hopeless under our conditions.

Cheers,

J

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I am going to have to confirm Jim's observation that this palm doesn't appear to mind less heat accumulations here in Central Calif/Bay Area. I got mine last Winter, it had stopped growing in June, but it turns out it was a fertilizer issue. I recently decided to give it some fertilizer and this thing just took off. Mine is way past greenhouse momentum, it's gotten quite a bit of abuse and neglect because I didn't believe in it being growable here. It's survived not getting watered and no fertilizer at all. It's in full sun, which burned off all the leaves except the ones it grew here.

I am going to stop listening to all the nay saying, and give this more of a try. It might not be Winter hardy, but it could be fun to grow in a pot and move to shelter when temps decide to get into the upper 30's.

[Mr Rare]

I have tried and succeeded with many marginal palms for my area but Lemurophoenix is not one of them.

After three tries I am convinced it can not be grown in my garden.