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Bye-bye Bunya - how many unusual Araucarias left in SoCal?


mnorell

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My partner is out in L.A. at the moment on business and last week had sent me pix of an expansion/remodel of an old Spanish house in West Hollywood (Orlando Ave. at Santa Monica Blvd.) that had been redone with an uncharacteristically nice quality of design and materials. And what was better...they had left the towering old Araucaria, either a narrow Bunya Bunya (Araucaria bidwillii) or perhaps a hybrid or another unusual species, standing in domination of the area, as it had for many years. Unfortunately, he just happened upon the same site an hour ago and sent me this picture:

bye-bye-bunya.jpg

Unfortunately it looks like this will be a goner by this afternoon. Meanwhile the owners have installed Syagrus romanzoffiana, Bougainvillea and Strelitzia nicolai, crowded into a narrow strip throughout the alley, just a few uncomfortable inches from wall and pavement, and what they may do now at the front of the house remains to be seen. To my eyes this goes from an arresting landscape to an ordinary one in one day's time.

I have watched Araucaria bidwillii disappear gradually from the California landscape over many years. I have often wondered from this specimen's narrower-than-usual form if it might be a hybrid or another species altogether (and perhaps any Aussies may be able to enlighten). It has been a thing of beauty and a notable presence in the landscape there. There was a spectacular, gigantic and perfectly formed specimen of A. bidwillii at the old "sheik's mansion" in Beverly Hills (the mansion in the Steve Martin film The Jerk) that died when the city of Beverly Hills took over the property and apparently it languished and browned out from a complete lack of water. That has been many years now. It looks like most cities have few if any tree protection laws and as human density increases those that remain are disappearing. Does anybody have any observations as regards this sad fact for this species or the other more unusual Araucarias, and how many might still remain in southern California?

Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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I know of at least 3 huge ones here in modesto, which is in central ca.

Modesto, CA USDA 9b

July/August average 95f/63f

Dec/Jan average 55f/39f

Average lowest winter temp 27f

Record low temp 18f

Record high temp 113f

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Quite a few here in the SF Bay Area as well, one of my design clients has one 104 years old, and so does the neighbor across the street. They were quite popular here around 1880 to about 1910.

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Not even common anymore in their home state, many old specimens have been removed.

Andrew,
Airlie Beach, Whitsundays

Tropical Queensland

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I still see a lot of these around southern California, but can't say, other than my own, any new plantings here. CAn't even seem to find one of these for sale anymore. Get too huge for most gardens I think. BElow are some shots NOT in botanical gardens, which still have a number of these.

post-426-0-64674400-1408231288_thumb.jpgpost-426-0-88766700-1408231326_thumb.jpgpost-426-0-58369700-1408231346_thumb.jpgpost-426-0-59959700-1408231379_thumb.jpgpost-426-0-70047800-1408231408_thumb.jpg

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They are magnificent trees, but need to be given room. No good for a garden due to the falling nuts, and the razor sharp dead foliage that litters the ground...try walking bare feet under one... :)

Daryl

Gold Coast, Queensland Latitude 28S. Mild, Humid Subtropical climate. Rainfall - not consistent enough!

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I can see a few here and there in the wild from right out the window from where I'm typing this. Legendary trees.

Happy Gardening

Cheers,

Wal

Queensland, Australia.

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I still see a lot of these around southern California, but can't say, other than my own, any new plantings here. CAn't even seem to find one of these for sale anymore. Get too huge for most gardens I think. BElow are some shots NOT in botanical gardens, which still have a number of these.

attachicon.gifAraucaria bidwilliis.JPGattachicon.gifAraucaria bidwillii in SB.jpgattachicon.gifAraucaria bidwillii silohuette SB.jpgattachicon.gifAraucaria bidwillii Pasadena tall.jpgattachicon.gifAraucaria bidwillii leaning Santa Paula.jpg

Great pics!

Falling cones are a huge liability issue. Most cities that have trees in parks or ROWs have a yearly removal routine. As trees get taller, the size and cost of booms needed increases considerably. And for homeowners who have trees that may overhang public ROWs, those costs may be hard to bear every year.

SoCal and SoFla; zone varies by location.

'Home is where the heart suitcase is'...

_____

"If, as they say, there truly is no rest for the wicked, how can the Devil's workshop be filled with idle hands?"

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It's sad that our society has become so litigious that many flowering and fruiting trees are removed just for liability fears. Of course in some cases it's a very real danger (and I understand that the cones on these may be something of a danger), but in others I think people just want an easy cash reward because they didn't look where they were walking. Some years ago someone sued L.A. for slipping on a Chorisia speciosa bloom downtown next to an office or administrative building. A whole group of mature trees was removed pronto when that happened...and I'm sure there was a nice payout to the "injured" party as well.

And also I had forgotten to post a link to the way the Araucaria looked before it was touched, here on Google Street View in 2011.

And here's the house the day after the tree was removed:

Bunya-gone.jpg

Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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Moving to another farmhouse soon, there's a old bunya nearby. This whole region where I now reluctantly abide were covered in them back in the day.

post-51-0-34297200-1408321328_thumb.jpg

Happy Gardening

Cheers,

Wal

Queensland, Australia.

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Do you see these narrow forms in the wild? I'm still wondering if that is a natural variation or if some hybridization has occurred. The fourth picture in Geoff's post above also shows a narrow 'version.' And Wal, did they (or do they) form pure stands of forest in Queensland? I get the impression from their broad pyramidal shape that they would naturally grow at some good distance from each other.

Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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My photo is of a wild tree. Nothing hybrid going on. Next time I go to Bunya mountains I will take some photos.

Happy Gardening

Cheers,

Wal

Queensland, Australia.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Quite a few here in the SF Bay Area as well, one of my design clients has one 104 years old, and so does the neighbor across the street. They were quite popular here around 1880 to about 1910.

There's a nice old specimen that towers over the entrance to Chez Panisse, the famous restaurant in Berkeley.

Jason Dewees

Inner Sunset District

San Francisco, California

Sunset zone 17

USDA zone 10a

21 inches / 530mm annual rainfall, mostly October to April

Humidity averages 60 to 85 percent year-round.

Summer: 67F/55F | 19C/12C

Winter: 56F/44F | 13C/6C

40-year extremes: 96F/26F | 35.5C/-3.8C

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Numerous specimens (mostly Monkey Puzzles) still can be found around San Jose, the biggest I've seen being just outside the Winchester Mystery House, unless they chopped it down.. and out near the Mining museum in New Almaden. There was also another sizable specimen a couple blocks from where id lived in the Cambrian Park area. Before leaving the area last year, the nursery id worked at stocked several large Monkey Puzzles and sold them all.

Had also been seeing more and more NF Island pines around the east side of town over the last few years as well.

-Nathan-

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I have a Bunya Bunya - this was the first year I had any seeds. I didn't see or hear it fall, but it really does look like it could cause a lot of damage.

Resident of Puerto de la Cruz, Tenerife, San Diego, CA and Pahoa, HI.  Former garden in Vista, CA.  Garden Photos

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As a visitor I loved these trees. They gave quite a bit of visual interest to the skyline.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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I know there used to be a few columnaris at a park in La Jolla, don't know if they're still there. I ,for one, always thought Araucarias just look out of place and ugly in an otherwise subtropical/ tropical landscape. That is with the exception of norfolks, which I do remember seeing in SoCal, but I could be mistaken.

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It's good to know there are more of these to be found, though it certainly sounds as if their numbers are shrinking due to development. I for one have always enjoyed them, though I have to admit that the Norfolk is not my favorite and is perhaps overused. (I'm very much partial to A. bidwillii and A. columnaris.) And whether or not you think they look "tropical" or not, they certainly are pretty unique as "tree cycads" and they add a lot to the landscape as skyline trees. The various species tolerate cool maritime/temperate (Monkey Puzzle) to warm humid tropical (A. columnaris) and seemingly everything in between as long as frosts are neither common nor severe. Coastal California seems dominated by Norfolks and to a much lesser extent Bunya-Bunya (and I really don't remember ever seeing any A. columnaris there); and there are a lot of A. columnaris down here in the Keys (and a decent number of Norfolks as well). I have not recognized any of the other species here. The Brazilian Araucaria (A. angustifolia) is spectacular, though I've only seen them in photos.

Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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ON the contrary, 99% of all Araucarias growing in southern California are A columnaris. A heterophyllas exist, but they are much more rare… I love them as they are humongous, stately trees with amazing silhouettes… sadly all these zillions of planted columnaris are always incorrectly identified as Norfolk Island pines, which they are not, and the confusion gets perpetuated on and on...

Here is an article about my frustration with this continued confusion:

http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/4586/

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It is easy to take for granted that which is common and easily grown. Those trees were likely someone's pride of the garden, and maybe in some cases, still are. One man's weed,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Geoff, I am now completely confused. The picture on Wikipedia of A. columnaris trees in New Caledonia in habitat look like what I always have associated with A. columnaris, a tall skinny stick, irregular but dense in its mass of foliage; while I always have thought A. heterophylla has the triangular "Christmas Tree" silhouette with widely spaced, very symmetrical branching (and which is basically what I'm seeing in most of the trees pictured when I look on the Norfolk Island tourism website). And my sister and brother-in-law live in Cardiff-by-the-Sea and have a "Norfolk Pine" that is leaning (as you describe in your article) and they are ready to rip it out as they wanted a symmetrical, upright tree. Perhaps I should tell them to investigate a little further before they do that and try to replace it. I think this whole business is also complicated by hybridization and as you mention, by differences in appearance as the tree ages. I suppose the way to tell is by examining the cones with a key. I guess I have always just assumed it was as easy as looking at that silhouette. Ugh! Perhaps someone from Australia or New Caledonia or Norfolk wants to chime in and enlighten us further?

Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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ON the contrary, 99% of all Araucarias growing in southern California are A columnaris. A heterophyllas exist, but they are much more rare… I love them as they are humongous, stately trees with amazing silhouettes… sadly all these zillions of planted columnaris are always incorrectly identified as Norfolk Island pines, which they are not, and the confusion gets perpetuated on and on...

Here is an article about my frustration with this continued confusion:

http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/4586/

I've had some difficulty distinguishing between the two, sometimes it's obvious because norfolk's have much wider spacing in-between branches. Other times, I find myself torn. Here's a pic by my house in Vero beach, on the barrier island. Are these columnaris or norfolk? I assumed norfolk.

post-10561-0-49789000-1410881505_thumb.j

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those are typical columnaris.. note first the leaning … Norfolks virtually NEVER lean (nor branch). Also notice foliage growing near trunk… Norfolks have most of the foliage out near the tips of the branches… also branches too close together for heterophylla. Certainly NOT a Norfolk.. .but could be some sort of hybrid. There are many trees I have trouble putting completely in one category versus the other. Unfortunately climate does change the looks of A columnaris (though does not seem to affect heterophylla much)… A columnaris gets a lot bigger in a warm, humid climate like yours (huge in fact… still smaller than heterophylla though). They are far easier to tell apart here in California where one is a small tree (at least at first) while A heterophylla is never small (except as a seedling of course).

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those are typical columnaris.. note first the leaning … Norfolks virtually NEVER lean (nor branch). Also notice foliage growing near trunk… Norfolks have most of the foliage out near the tips of the branches… also branches too close together for heterophylla. Certainly NOT a Norfolk.. .but could be some sort of hybrid. There are many trees I have trouble putting completely in one category versus the other. Unfortunately climate does change the looks of A columnaris (though does not seem to affect heterophylla much)… A columnaris gets a lot bigger in a warm, humid climate like yours (huge in fact… still smaller than heterophylla though). They are far easier to tell apart here in California where one is a small tree (at least at first) while A heterophylla is never small (except as a seedling of course).

Do Norfolk have any trouble with the California climate? I imagine norfolk being humid with quite a bit of rain year round.

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they seem to do very well here… not seen any with disease problems. Just not planted enough is all -takes up way too much room for most back yards is the problem I think… even an Araucaria bidwilli takes up a lot less room initially than this monster, though it quickly catches up and surprises people…. possibly one reason so many get taken out. A heterophylla is such a graceful, gorgeous tree, and not that unsafe, either (doesn't drop the monster bombs like Bunya Bunyas do)

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Hmm.

No question, Araucarias are magnificent when they grow large.

And, they're a giant pain, too, or at least the ones that drop the giant cones.

Bunya Bunya do. Do they ever!

There's a century old specimen in the front yard of a house that's now a lawyer's office in Riverside. I happened to be standing near it, when CRASH down came a cone from the tree onto the lawn. Fortunately, I was on the sidewalk. That cone was bigger and fatter than my big and fat head, and likely weighed at least as much. While it wasn't hard like a coconut, it's not something I'd want falling on me. (They had warning signs, which the gardener had taken down! :interesting: )

As nice as they can be, I'd call it irresponsible to plant one in a West Hollywood treelawn next to a sidewalk. Too bad, but most people do appreciate their orthopedic continuity.

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

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Ha! I love it...orthopedic continuity. Very funny but also a good point considering its proximity to the sidewalk. That tree had been there for many years so I wonder if there was ever any issue. I never thought about it and walked past it many times over the years. Unfortunately I don't think that was the motivation behind its removal...

Michael Norell

Rancho Mirage, California | 33°44' N 116°25' W | 287 ft | z10a | avg Jan 43/70F | Jul 78/108F avg | Weather Station KCARANCH310

previously Big Pine Key, Florida | 24°40' N 81°21' W | 4.5 ft. | z12a | Calcareous substrate | avg annual min. approx 52F | avg Jan 65/75F | Jul 83/90 | extreme min approx 41F

previously Natchez, Mississippi | 31°33' N 91°24' W | 220 ft.| z9a | Downtown/river-adjacent | Loess substrate | avg annual min. 23F | Jan 43/61F | Jul 73/93F | extreme min 2.5F (1899); previously Los Angeles, California (multiple locations)

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