Do U think the mild winter and tropical summer sets us up to fail?

[BS Man about Palms]

Starting in about November of 2013, and at this point into the foreseeable future, the growing weather has approached perfection in So. California...at least for being in the mainland USA.

Is that prompting you to zone push?

Will newbies be convinced this Palm Hobby "isn't that hard".. (That's where I was in early 2006 and then winter 2007 hit)

What benefits or detractions do you see in this?

[trioderob]

no Bill - it set us up to win.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Yeah, go ahead and rub it in. We had one of the worst freezes in Norcal last December. This Summer I bought some large brahea from a nursery in the North Bay and even the brahea were damaged at the nursery there, they're re-growing nicely here.

Let's hope for rain and of course the best outcome is no cold outbreak at all.

[DoomsDave]

If El Nino does come, it will be a slow letdown. Temps will fall, and some things that like the dry will not be happy.

The palms love the heat, me, not so much. Thank heaven for the Dark Tower and AC guys like BS man . . . .

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

If El Nino does come, it will be a slow letdown. Temps will fall, and some things that like the dry will not be happy.

The palms love the heat, me, not so much. Thank heaven for the Dark Tower and AC guys like BS man . . . .

You need to come up here to cool off.

[DoomsDave]

If El Nino does come, it will be a slow letdown. Temps will fall, and some things that like the dry will not be happy.

The palms love the heat, me, not so much. Thank heaven for the Dark Tower and AC guys like BS man . . . .

You need to come up here to cool off.

I'm overdue, according to a number of No-Callians . . .

[_Keith]

It can definitely set up your plants for a sucker punch. After 2 exceptionally mild winters and warm very rainy summers everything here was in uber growth full of new tender foliage that had never seen cold. Then wham. No doubt the unbelievably worse than normal damage was the result of the previous 2 years and not the severity of the cold itself.

[Ben in Norcal]

If El Nino does come, it will be a slow letdown. Temps will fall, and some things that like the dry will not be happy.

The palms love the heat, me, not so much. Thank heaven for the Dark Tower and AC guys like BS man . . . .

You need to come up here to cool off.

Up where? Down there you mean? Week straight of 100ish here...

[palmsOrl]

Yes it does! I have my parent's yard full of tropical palms and other tropical plants of all kinds. I now live in a home of my own and am beginning to do the same thing here. Heck, even my grandma has a yard landscaped like Fort Laderdale, except for the large live oaks and some azaleas. I have never seen her lose anything from freeze damage. Many of my newly planted palms are 10b palms, though some are 10a. As I have noted before, all of my in-ground zone 10a palms (2 species of Roystonea, majesty, foxtail, Archontophoenix) survived 2010 unprotected. I planted a 40 foot hedge of crotons last year, something most would not dream of bothering with 20-30 years ago in the Orlando area. I didn't lose a thing in the ground this past winter, or the winter before that. Most of this ridiculous zone pushing behavior happens during the wet summer months, when I almost get lulled into a sense that I am gardening in the Amazon, or Singapore. I am in for a rude awakening, likely within the next few years. I feel that more will survive than expected during the next big cold event, due to the ever-expanding urban heat island.

[Capnrey]

Will newbies be convinced this Palm Hobby "isn't that hard".. (That's where I was in early 2006 and then winter 2007 hit)

I'm only a few years into this, and I've managed to loose 1 foxtail - due to putting it in place it really didn't like (the roof deck), and then trying to plant it in the ground - where it finally croaked. I replaced it with a Chamaedorea Plumosa. This past May, the heat burned the leaves severely on my Cham. Marcrocarpa, and H. Canterburiana that I got from Phil at JM. The good news is, those two palms are throwing out new spears and are doing fine now. Two other palms, a ptychosperma elegans, and D. Lanceolata got a bit of burn on them - but very mild. I put up a screen to cover the FlameThrower for now.

All my new palms are surrounding our newly remodeled pool. I figure, if the temp ever threatens to go down below let say 36 degrees for the night, I'm throwing the pool heater on that day to help keep the air and ground warmer for the night. But our yard is in a urban area, a mile away from the coast in two directions and placed up on a ridge, where cold air really can't 'hang' like it can down in the arroyo - and I've never seen temps below 38 on the roof. Actually, this is part of the reason I decided to grow rare palms . .I figured I had a chance to be successful at it in the yard I have.

But yeah . . what a great climate were having! I just loved the "mexican" weather we had the last few days. Keeps the direct sun off the fronds!

Aside from weather . .my other challenge is spelling all these damn palm names right. :/

Cheers,

-Rey

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Rey, it will be a freak of nature if a ridge 1 mile from the water in Dana Point should ever drop below freezing. You've got nothing to worry about. If it wasn't for Santa Ana winds you could try your luck with a coconut and I bet you might even succeed.

FYI, the May Santa Ana heat wave was a freak of nature, never seen the mercury hit 103F up here along the Central California coast in May. I got mild burn on a large b. hapala that's in part shade, just 1 hour of sun did it.

[Jim in Los Altos]

Except for the damp early December freeze that Axel mentioned here in NorCal, the rest of the winter was mild to very warm. January and February had several days reaching the 80s and nighttime lows were rarely lower than the 40s on clear nights. Spring growth went into high gear earlier than normal provided we irrigated. I believe a strong, well fed palm always holds up to what winter throws at it much better than a palm left to its own defenses regardless of whether it's "hardened off". I feed heavily with a good organic palm fertilizer in mid autumn to get my palms ready for winter.

[Alicehunter2000]

You guys got it rough.....blah blah

[_Keith]

You guys do know the Polar Vortex kind of never went away. Crazy weather further north off and on this summer. We are having out 3rd cold front this summer, which is unheard of. Low tonight of 69, in the 3rd week of July. This will tie our all time record low for this date. Highs won't even break 90 for next few days. I got a bad feeling we have not seen the last of the Polar Vortex.

I saw something on the weather channel about this briefly before I had to head into work. We're getting down to a high of 83 and 84 over the next few days, certainly unheard of around here. I was really hoping I put my first dreadful winter season as a palm grower behind me (and my first winter as a palm grower ever!) Bad timing, I guess.

You guys do know the Polar Vortex kind of never went away. Crazy weather further north off and on this summer. We are having out 3rd cold front this summer, which is unheard of. Low tonight of 69, in the 3rd week of July. This will tie our all time record low for this date. Highs won't even break 90 for next few days. I got a bad feeling we have not seen the last of the Polar Vortex.

Yeah, I saw some articles regarding some more polar vortex patterns showing up over the Summer with lows in the lower 40's throughout upstate NY.

El Nino has fizzled, most of the Pacific waters are going back to neutral conditions. Here in California this Summer is showing a very similar pattern to the drought pattern of the 1970's with abnormally strong monsoon flows across the State. Not sure what all of this means for this coming Winter. Days are getting more noticeably shorter as we head into August, so it's probably a good time to start planning for the coming Winter.

Doesn't sound good... And don't worry, I've already started planning and that leads to this question:

Besides wrapping your palm tree in Christmas lights, is there another way to keep your palm warm, like putting an electric heater to blow air on your palm while its wrapped underneath a frost blanket? I was thinking the frost sheet would keep the heat in and at the same time, I would have my heater turn on and off intermittently throughout the night so it wouldn't get to be 200 degrees. Is this crazy? Or are there better ways out there as far as sending heat onto a palm while underneath a blanket or protection of some sort?

Soil heat tape. Old fashion, 60 watt bulb under the cover.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

If El Nino does come, it will be a slow letdown. Temps will fall, and some things that like the dry will not be happy.

The palms love the heat, me, not so much. Thank heaven for the Dark Tower and AC guys like BS man . . . .

You need to come up here to cool off.

Up where? Down there you mean? Week straight of 100ish here...

I am talking about balmy Central California Coastal Valley weather, 70's to low 80's, not the inland inferno you live in.

I went to the July NCPS meeting in Vacaville, I don't recall seeing you there, it was 102F. We camped under the jubaea, it was 85F at midnight.

[DoomsDave]

Well the tough part is being on the alert.

After a time of milk and honey, the fantasy of plenty just goes right to your head in this land of not-always-plenty.

You think it will last forever.

Nope.

Cows go dry, and the bees get attacked by Japanese Hornets of Doom.

But, El Nino will be ideal in its way. It will fill the reserviors, or however you spell that.

[Hammer]

Well the tough part is being on the alert.

After a time of milk and honey, the fantasy of plenty just goes right to your head in this land of not-always-plenty.

You think it will last forever.

Nope.

Cows go dry, and the bees get attacked by Japanese Hornets of Doom.

But, El Nino will be ideal in its way. It will fill the reserviors, or however you spell that.

You are so right on DD. I think the weather impacts us people more than the palms. It's our memories and expectations that are not met and we start to see the negative. Might even be, in my case, that I get lazy and think I can cut corners. Then the palms suffer.

[yachtingone]

Excellent topic Bill! To bad most responses so far have nothing to do with the topic (Axel). I got into palms in 2006. We had the 2007 freeze and I learned my lesson well early into planting palm trees! I refuse to zone push because of that experience despite of my huge success story with Dypsis pembana! My D. pembana survived the freeze with little damage! Our guide book said it should die bellow 32 f.? . The book was wrong!

I hope other keep zone pushing thru the wonderful weather we have been experiencing! Maybe they to will be able to rewrite the book on low temps our palm trees can take!

Randy

PS, Peeps try to stay on topic!

[Capnrey]

If it wasn't for Santa Ana winds you could try your luck with a coconut and I bet you might even succeed.

I've tired coconut - way way south !

Edited August 1, 2014 by Mantarey

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Excellent topic Bill! To bad most responses so far have nothing to do with the topic (Axel). I got into palms in 2006. We had the 2007 freeze and I learned my lesson well early into planting palm trees! I refuse to zone push because of that experience despite of my huge success story with Dypsis pembana! My D. pembana survived the freeze with little damage! Our guide book said it should die bellow 32 f.? . The book was wrong!

I hope other keep zone pushing thru the wonderful weather we have been experiencing! Maybe they to will be able to rewrite the book on low temps our palm trees can take!

Randy

PS, Peeps try to stay on topic!

Here's an on-topic response for you. Pembama's hardiness is a great find, I have discovered they can take quite a bit of abuse here too, not the least of which was 120F in my greenhouse a week ago while I was out of town. But then why do you refuse to zone push when you had such a perfect example of a success? The whole point of zone pushing is to plant a bunch of things and see what sticks and not bemoan the losses. Last Winter I planted a number of dypsis, about half of them were experimental, meaning not a single soul had ever tried to grow them here. In came the December 2013 freeze, just in time to clean out what wasn't gonna fly here. I discovered dypsis ambositrae to be a winner here, tough as nails. It was totally worth loosing the few other marginals just to find one killer new species that is relatively bullet proof here.

But getting more specific even to this topic, you guys down South must have real short memory. You had one reasonably mild Winter, that's all, and that's not that unusual either, the last hard freeze was January 2013, which is barely a year and a half ago. I don't see how anyone even had time to get more complacent than usual unless they have a bad case of amnesia. It's relatively routine for folks to be more daring even by the first week of Summer.

The key is to try things that haven't been tried before, and ask around what folks have tried and failed at. It's more interesting to find something new than to repeat someone else's failure. One mild Winter really has nothing to do with it.

[yachtingone]

Axel, "you guys down South must have a short memory". This topic is not about our memory! That was a rude statement anyways!!! You will see us southerners bring occasionally up the 07 freeze in many threads! It's amazing that our real short memory that us down south have can remember that far back...

"You had one reasonably mild Winter, that's all, and that's not that unusual either" It is unheard of to have the very warm winter we had last year!!! 3" of rain, no frost and I never turned on my heater for the house too! We had a lot of record high temps last winter too!

Axel it's obvious I would rather learn from other peoples mistakes in zone pushing. I don't like to waste my money, I chose to learn more with other peoples money!!!

Axel instead of being rude and terse, try being reasonable and stay on topic. You have intellect but little compassion!

Randy

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Axel, "you guys down South must have a short memory". This topic is not about our memory! That was a rude statement anyways!!! You will see us southerners bring occasionally up the 07 freeze in many threads! It's amazing that our real short memory that us down south have can remember that far back...

"You had one reasonably mild Winter, that's all, and that's not that unusual either" It is unheard of to have the very warm winter we had last year!!! 3" of rain, no frost and I never turned on my heater for the house too! We had a lot of record high temps last winter too!

Axel it's obvious I would rather learn from other peoples mistakes in zone pushing. I don't like to waste my money, I chose to learn more with other peoples money!!!

Axel instead of being rude and terse, try being reasonable and stay on topic. You have intellect but little compassion!

Randy

Nothing I said was directed at you personally. You, on the other hand seem to be directing a lot of anger towards me personally and are being particularly rude towards me. Try not to take things so personally, it's not about you. If you disagree with something I say, you are welcome to make an argument to the contrary, but be polite and stay away from making personal character references.

I grew up in Southern California, there was nothing unusual about last Winter in Southern California, I spent a chunk of it down there. I've seen many Winters without frost and little rain and never had to turn on the heater. As I said above, the last Socal freeze was only 18 months ago, there hasn't been enough time to be complacent, except for those folks who forget about Winter by late June. I'll stick with my original comment, IMHO it's business as usual, there is nothing special about this year.

[rprimbs]

I've thought about zone pushing with palms but I'm just sticking with the sure things for now. But I will admit that I feel the urge partly because I have a mangosteen that is doing okay -- that I bought last year, and I have a couple of durians that seem to be loving the heat.

[yachtingone]

Axel maybe your not as smart as I gave you credit for! Reread my last post again. I didn't show any anger towards you at all. Quote me where you think I I expressed anger towards you!

You made a general statement that all of us in So. Cal. MUST have a short memory. If that's NOT rude I don't know what is.

How come did we have numerous record high temps last winter? I have lived in Corona for 34 years. Every winter before last winter we had many frosts and I turned on my heater a lot! So.Cal is a big place, where you spent a chunk here of time does not apply to Corona. There are a lot of different climate here in So. Ca., Probably more than anywhere else on the planet!

http://www.weatherwest.com/

The link above backs up we had the warmest winter on record.

I have seen in many of your post you back off when you figured out you were dead wrong. Maybe it will happen again!

My plants are loving the record warm temps we had last winter! They want another very warm winter. I wouldn't mind another winter w/o a heating bill!

Randy

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Axel maybe your not as smart as I gave you credit for! Reread my last post again. I didn't show any anger towards you at all. Quote me where you think I I expressed anger towards you!

You made a general statement that all of us in So. Cal. MUST have a short memory. If that's NOT rude I don't know what is.

How come did we have numerous record high temps last winter? I have lived in Corona for 34 years. Every winter before last winter we had many frosts and I turned on my heater a lot! So.Cal is a big place, where you spent a chunk here of time does not apply to Corona. There are a lot of different climate here in So. Ca., Probably more than anywhere else on the planet!

http://www.weatherwest.com/

The link above backs up we had the warmest winter on record.

I have seen in many of your post you back off when you figured out you were dead wrong. Maybe it will happen again!

My plants are loving the record warm temps we had last winter! They want another very warm winter. I wouldn't mind another winter w/o a heating bill!

Randy

Let do it in bullet form, perhaps it will be more clear:

• I am referring to collective amnesia, not your memory in particular.
• Southern California gets many periods of amazingly mild weather. I doubt any experienced gardeners in Southern California who live in the more frost prone locations would be lullabied into a false sense of security just because an entire Winter passed without any cold spells. The last Socal freeze was in January 2013, a mere 18 months ago, That would be too close for comfort for me. I get the sense it's too close for comfort even for you since you are not willing to push the envelope anymore even though you didn't even fire up your heater last Winter.
• In my neck of the woods, exclamations are associated with enthusiasm only when they're at the end of a praising sentence. At the end of a condemnation, they're always interpreted as anger. When I am referring to you being angry, here are the quotes:
  • "maybe your not as smart as I gave you credit for!",
  • "Axel instead of being rude and terse, try being reasonable and stay on topic. You have intellect but little compassion!".

Way too many folks on PalmTalk seem to be quick at dishing out personal condemnations when someone says something they don't agree with. And I am sure it wouldn't be too hard to dig up cases of me doing the same, but still doesn't make it right.

[_Keith]

You are all in time-out. Go to your rooms, now.

Said while yelling from inside my room as I am already in time-out.

[JT in Japan]

Besides wrapping your palm tree in Christmas lights, is there another way to keep your palm warm, like putting an electric heater to blow air on your palm while its wrapped underneath a frost blanket? I was thinking the frost sheet would keep the heat in and at the same time, I would have my heater turn on and off intermittently throughout the night so it wouldn't get to be 200 degrees. Is this crazy? Or are there better ways out there as far as sending heat onto a palm while underneath a blanket or protection of some sort?

Soil heat tape. Old fashion, 60 watt bulb under the cover.

I saw a product in the Japanese Ag Society catalogue yesterday (I'll post a pic in 2 days when I get back to the city where I left it), but it's essentially an insulated heater cable, fairly thick, in lengths of 20 to 50 meters, that farmers bury in the dirt to heat the ground. The image provided had it going into the ground of a poly tunnel, I guess to encourage early growth of seedlings. Has anyone seen this before? I'm thinking how easy it would be to snake this through the garden, circling each palm rootball, just under the top layer of soil or under the mulch. What do you think? It'll only run 3-4 months, nights only, so the annual running costs should be low...

[_Keith]

It all depends on where the palms growing point is. Other than Sabals and young palms, in the soil may not be as much help. Optimally you want something that can be thermostatically controlled and at the most tender point of the plant. Many times that is above rather than below ground.

[Jeff Searle]

Well, that was fun reading.

[Hammer]

You are all in time-out. Go to your rooms, now.

Said while yelling from inside my room as I am already in time-out.

Keith you forgot to add exclamation points!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hammer]

Besides wrapping your palm tree in Christmas lights, is there another way to keep your palm warm, like putting an electric heater to blow air on your palm while its wrapped underneath a frost blanket? I was thinking the frost sheet would keep the heat in and at the same time, I would have my heater turn on and off intermittently throughout the night so it wouldn't get to be 200 degrees. Is this crazy? Or are there better ways out there as far as sending heat onto a palm while underneath a blanket or protection of some sort?

Soil heat tape. Old fashion, 60 watt bulb under the cover.

I saw a product in the Japanese Ag Society catalogue yesterday (I'll post a pic in 2 days when I get back to the city where I left it), but it's essentially an insulated heater cable, fairly thick, in lengths of 20 to 50 meters, that farmers bury in the dirt to heat the ground. The image provided had it going into the ground of a poly tunnel, I guess to encourage early growth of seedlings. Has anyone seen this before? I'm thinking how easy it would be to snake this through the garden, circling each palm rootball, just under the top layer of soil or under the mulch. What do you think? It'll only run 3-4 months, nights only, so the annual running costs should be low...

Stevetoad started a thread on a similar topic (heating cables in the yard) a couple years ago. I can't search far enough back to post the link. But if you can find it, it may have some useful comments.

[Jim in Los Altos]

Well, I'm in the experiment with marginals camp too. The hobby would be boring to me if I wasn't trying some new species every year. My third and last of the season palm order from Floribunda was delivered today and, as usual, the plants are in awesome health. New species for me in this order are Bentinkia condapanna, Burretiokentia koghiensis, Dypsis pilulifera, D. Sp. white, Geonoma schottiana, Prestoea montana, and Ptychosperma cuneatum. I can't wait to get them in the ground this weekend! There are at least 75 of the 125 species doing well in my garden that were previously untested in my area. I don't mind spending money on a palm even if iit ends up as an annual. I can think of a lot of worse things to "waist" money on.

[PALM MOD]

One more personally directed derisive remark and this topic disappears.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Well, I'm in the experiment with marginals camp too. The hobby would be boring to me if I wasn't trying some new species every year. My third and last of the season palm order from Floribunda was delivered today and, as usual, the plants are in awesome health. New species for me in this order are Bentinkia condapanna, Burretiokentia koghiensis, Dypsis pilulifera, D. Sp. white, Geonoma schottiana, Prestoea montana, and Ptychosperma cuneatum. I can't wait to get them in the ground this weekend! There are at least 75 of the 125 species doing well in my garden that were previously untested in my area. I don't mind spending money on a palm even if iit ends up as an annual. I can think of a lot of worse things to "waist" money on.

I am curious how you fare with Geonoma schottiana. I lost mine to fungus, but I planted it in a bad poorly ventilated spot to begin with. Make sure to plant that one in loose, well aerated soil. Last December's freeze obviously spared your garden given your current enthusiasm.

[Stevetoad]

Déjà vu.

[Jim in Los Altos]

Well, I'm in the experiment with marginals camp too. The hobby would be boring to me if I wasn't trying some new species every year. My third and last of the season palm order from Floribunda was delivered today and, as usual, the plants are in awesome health. New species for me in this order are Bentinkia condapanna, Burretiokentia koghiensis, Dypsis pilulifera, D. Sp. white, Geonoma schottiana, Prestoea montana, and Ptychosperma cuneatum. I can't wait to get them in the ground this weekend! There are at least 75 of the 125 species doing well in my garden that were previously untested in my area. I don't mind spending money on a palm even if iit ends up as an annual. I can think of a lot of worse things to "waist" money on.

I am curious how you fare with Geonoma schottiana. I lost mine to fungus, but I planted it in a bad poorly ventilated spot to begin with. Make sure to plant that one in loose, well aerated soil. Last December's freeze obviously spared your garden given your current enthusiasm.

Axel, I had no losses whatsoever from the cold spell in December. Of course, there were some singed fronds here and there but it takes much more than a low of 30F to do much damage even though the cold spell was nearly two weeks long. Yes, I'm more enthusiastic than I was a few years ago.

[Tyrone]

Every summer I feel like zone pushing and have to remind myself that winter is a certainty and won't disappear altogether. Every winter I get reminded how crazy my zone pushing ideas were and wish for summer. I should live in the wet tropics.

[Jim in Los Altos]

Some years I actually look forward to winter so I can see how my latest experimental palm species will fare. This coming winter is on my mind because I've added at least 25 untried species to the ground this summer, several of which I've been assured can NEVER make it up here. I've heard that many times before and sometimes the warnings were right and often they weren't. Bring on winter and please RAIN!

[trioderob]

EPIC growing conditions now !

tropical moisture and high heat every day

palms are growing at jaw dropping rate now

the hell with winter

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

EPIC growing conditions now !

tropical moisture and high heat every day

palms are growing at jaw dropping rate now

the hell with winter

Rob, didn't you recently post a thread about how the lack of water is really the limiting factor for growth? What's the use of the heat if there is no rainfall? That's the continuing difficult part of growing palms in California, there's no rain when the palms need it the most, hence palms are slow in California. You've said it yourself, you can throw all the heat at them you want, you're still not going to get the growth rate if there's no rainfall.

I heard it rained in Hemet, but it's still all just traces of rain, not going to help the palms.