Phoenix Canariensis o Dactylifera

[foxtail]

Hi everyone, need your help to identify this specimen. Thanks in advance.

On the third Photo, those black spots, Is she sick?

Edited July 23, 2014 by foxtail

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

That looks like a Dactylifera.

[Phoenikakias]

I do not have any experience at all how a dacty or a CIDP would look like in a tropical climate (yes climate zone may affect appearance of a palm), but I dare say it is neither a CIDP nor a pure (at least) dacty! I dare furthermore say it reminds me an Indian or an east-asian Phoenix sp...

[Xerarch]

Ya I was going to say it looks a little dainty to be either a pure canariensis or pure dacty.

[foxtail]

Hello and thanks to all. The seller told me that is a Canariensis but I had my doubt.

Edited July 23, 2014 by foxtail

[Palmdude]

I was thinking the same thing about how delicate it looks.

[Phoenikakias]

If I may add a potentially useful but also controversial information, I think one more feature against the (genuine) dacty identity, is the proportion of petiole and part of rhachis equiped only with spines (aka acanthophylls- I use arbitrarily the term 'pseudopetiole' to describe both parts together) compared to entire leafe's length. On a pure dacty this part of the leaf is way shorter than one third of total length, but on the loureiroi clan it reaches roughly the first proximal one third of the entire legth. Now I wait for responses...

[foxtail]

I am waiting for that too, need to learn a lot

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I do not have any experience at all how a dacty or a CIDP would look like in a tropical climate (yes climate zone may affect appearance of a palm), but I dare say it is neither a CIDP nor a pure (at least) dacty! I dare furthermore say it reminds me an Indian or an east-asian Phoenix sp...

Looks a lot like my phoenix theophrasti which is also in a 15 gallon at this time.

[foxtail]

Nobody has noticed that maybe looks like this due to the lack of space for their roots and lack of other resources?

[foxtail]

I do not have any experience at all how a dacty or a CIDP would look like in a tropical climate (yes climate zone may affect appearance of a palm), but I dare say it is neither a CIDP nor a pure (at least) dacty! I dare furthermore say it reminds me an Indian or an east-asian Phoenix sp...

Looks a lot like my phoenix theophrasti which is also in a 15 gallon at this time.

Hello

Brahea Axel, could you please do it a favor for me, upload a photo from your? cause at this moment i don't know what palm i have Thanks mate

Edited July 29, 2014 by foxtail

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Sure, tomorrow I'll upload a picture.

Lack of root space/fertilizer resources = stunted palm, lack of light could be responsible for a stretched look, but then a canary date palm would be much more dark green from lack of light. Hence I'd rule out canariensis. Looks more like a hybrid of an Indian form, not to mention that canariensis is not a likely specimen in the tropics, they just don't like a tropical climate. Dactylifera however is more commonly grown, but less common than silvestris and theophrasti.

[foxtail]

If I may add a potentially useful but also controversial information, I think one more feature against the (genuine) dacty identity, is the proportion of petiole and part of rhachis equiped only with spines (aka acanthophylls- I use arbitrarily the term 'pseudopetiole' to describe both parts together) compared to entire leafe's length. On a pure dacty this part of the leaf is way shorter than one third of total length, but on the loureiroi clan it reaches roughly the first proximal one third of the entire legth. Now I wait for responses...

I do not have any experience at all how a dacty or a CIDP would look like in a tropical climate (yes climate zone may affect appearance of a palm), but I dare say it is neither a CIDP nor a pure (at least) dacty! I dare furthermore say it reminds me an Indian or an east-asian Phoenix sp...

Looks a lot like my phoenix theophrasti which is also in a 15 gallon at this time.

Sure, tomorrow I'll upload a picture.

Lack of root space/fertilizer resources = stunted palm, lack of light could be responsible for a stretched look, but then a canary date palm would be much more dark green from lack of light. Hence I'd rule out canariensis. Looks more like a hybrid of an Indian form, not to mention that canariensis is not a likely specimen in the tropics, they just don't like a tropical climate. Dactylifera however is more commonly grown, but less common than silvestris and theophrasti.

Ok, i think YOU ARE RIGHT, upload from GoOgle --- Phoenix Theophrasti

[Phoenikakias]

I am sorry, IT IS NOT A THEOPHRASTI even in a stretched form, because this sp in shady or humid conditions remains green. Yours instead has already a tendency to silver. If you want to make absolutely sure whether your plant is a theophrasti, you have only to do a simple (but painful test). Check how pungent leaflet tips are, not just to let them poke your eye out, this would be the easy part for some more phoenix spss, moreover theophrasti's leflets can penetrate for good to the bleeding any part of your skin.

[foxtail]

Ok, I will do this test tomorrow morning and report, this palm is driving me crazy :badday:

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Here's my theophrasii:

[foxtail]

Here's my theophrasii:

Beautiful palm,

Brahea Axel Looks a lot like mine, but I'm confused right now

[Phoenikakias]

You do not have to be confused!!! JUST TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT AXEL'S THEOPHRASTI, ESPECIALLY AT THE PSEUDOPETIOLE OF THE OLDER LEAVES...

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

You do not have to be confused!!! JUST TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT AXEL'S THEOPHRASTI, ESPECIALLY AT THE PSEUDOPETIOLE OF THE OLDER LEAVES...

Please elaborate, because I am also confused by what you are saying. I can't tell the difference. Mine is green, not blue because it's been shaded. His is green as well, I don't see any silver. But if there is silver, it would point towards silvestris, but for that it's far too open of a growth form even for a shade grown specimen. That leaves dactylifera, which can also be pretty nasty.

[Phoenikakias]

If I may add a potentially useful but also controversial information, I think one more feature against the (genuine) dacty identity, is the proportion of petiole and part of rhachis equiped only with spines (aka acanthophylls- I use arbitrarily the term 'pseudopetiole' to describe both parts together) compared to entire leafe's length. On a pure dacty this part of the leaf is way shorter than one third of total length, but on the loureiroi clan it reaches roughly the first proximal one third of the entire legth. Now I wait for responses...

I am out of more precise words for my thoughts! I am sure you're keeneyed, so observe picture 2 in the beginning of the topic and picture 1 of your specimen concentrating on the petiole and following part of rhachis equiped only with spines, having in mind what I have described in my previous posting. Besides central part of leaves (meaning petiole and rhachis) on the mystery-specimen is significantly lighter green meaning that leaves are indeed gaucous (not only a game of light ) central part is going to become with age gray...

PS

In case I have not made it clear enough, all above is an argumentation that the specimen to be identified IS NOT A THEOPHRASTI.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Phoenikakias

[Phoenikakias]

You do not have to be there to realize at once the difference in the proportion to the entire leaf respectively that each encircled part has.

[foxtail]

I am sorry, IT IS NOT A THEOPHRASTI even in a stretched form, because this sp in shady or humid conditions remains green. Yours instead has already a tendency to silver. If you want to make absolutely sure whether your plant is a theophrasti, you have only to do a simple (but painful test). Check how pungent leaflet tips are, not just to let them poke your eye out, this would be the easy part for some more phoenix spss, moreover theophrasti's leflets can penetrate for good to the bleeding any part of your skin.

The spines are not too sharp, I bend it with my fingertips

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I'd go by process of elimination:

1) Not canariensis, leaves are not deep green like they should be

2) It's not silvestris, petioles are too long

3) It's not theophrasti if we believe Constantinos

4) Dactylifera is questionable if we believe Constantinos, but IMHO it's still a possibility

That leaves Phoenix loureiroi, and since loureiroi is such an intensely variable species with some Canary look-alikes as smaller palms, perhaps that's what it is. But I still think it's a dactylifera.

[Phoenikakias]

This is exactly what I am thinking also, a loureiroi or at least a hybrid with loureiroi in it. It happens that I have a palm bought as hanceana with strong resemblance to the the one here.

Here it is mine as juvenile decades ago

Hard to believe it has developed to this form (do not mind the leaf infront on the left side of the picture, it's from another Phoenix!)

[Phoenikakias]

Here are some more details

[Phoenikakias]

I am sorry, IT IS NOT A THEOPHRASTI even in a stretched form, because this sp in shady or humid conditions remains green. Yours instead has already a tendency to silver. If you want to make absolutely sure whether your plant is a theophrasti, you have only to do a simple (but painful test). Check how pungent leaflet tips are, not just to let them poke your eye out, this would be the easy part for some more phoenix spss, moreover theophrasti's leflets can penetrate for good to the bleeding any part of your skin.

The spines are not too sharp, I bend it with my fingertips

If you really do mean the spines and not the leaflets, then you have done above test wrongfully! I am talking seriously about the leaflets themselves (either those on top end of the entire leaf or those in the middle so that you do not confuse leaflets with spines aka acanthophylls). Theophrasti is so dangerous in terms of the penetration ability of leaflet tips, second only to Trithrinax camperstris within the whole palm family! But the fact alone that you can bend real spines is a proof that your palm is not a theophrasti (on latter spines do not bend) but an asian sp or hybrid (on my specimen spines are also quite flexible). Below pics of spiny habit of theophrasti, young specimen and adult one.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Phoenikakias

[foxtail]

I am sorry, IT IS NOT A THEOPHRASTI even in a stretched form, because this sp in shady or humid conditions remains green. Yours instead has already a tendency to silver. If you want to make absolutely sure whether your plant is a theophrasti, you have only to do a simple (but painful test). Check how pungent leaflet tips are, not just to let them poke your eye out, this would be the easy part for some more phoenix spss, moreover theophrasti's leflets can penetrate for good to the bleeding any part of your skin.

The spines are not too sharp, I bend it with my fingertips

If you really do mean the spines and not the leaflets, then you have done above test wrongfully! I am talking seriously about the leaflets themselves (either those on top end of the entire leaf or those in the middle so that you do not confuse leaflets with spines aka acanthophylls). Theophrasti is so dangerous in terms of the penetration ability of leaflet tips, second only to Trithrinax camperstris within the whole palm family! But the fact alone that you can bend real spines is a proof that your palm is not a theophrasti (on latter spines do not bend) but an asian sp or hybrid (on my specimen spines are also quite flexible). Below pics of spiny habit of theophrasti, young specimen and adult one.

DSC01898.JPGDSC01904.JPG

Understand, so it's my palm a Phoenix loureiroi ?

Edited July 31, 2014 by foxtail

[Phoenikakias]

I strongly believe that it is either a pure loureiroi or a hybrid with plenty of loureiroi in it.

[dalmatiansoap]

I am sorry, IT IS NOT A THEOPHRASTI even in a stretched form, because this sp in shady or humid conditions remains green. Yours instead has already a tendency to silver. If you want to make absolutely sure whether your plant is a theophrasti, you have only to do a simple (but painful test). Check how pungent leaflet tips are, not just to let them poke your eye out, this would be the easy part for some more phoenix spss, moreover theophrasti's leflets can penetrate for good to the bleeding any part of your skin.

did the test this afternoon and I can say I HAVE A THEOPHRASTI!!

[Phoenikakias]

SCREAM...

[foxtail]

Excellent ID solved. Sir. Phoenikakias, Sir. Brahea Axel, thanks for your input and help.

Edited August 5, 2014 by foxtail

[foxtail]

I purchased these one today, what do you think guys? Canariensis or Dactylifera?

Edited August 7, 2014 by foxtail

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Definitely not canariensis. Looks like dactylifera but I can't rule out silvestris. Not enough details and the lighting makes it hard to see the color and shades of green.

[foxtail]

Definitely not canariensis. Looks like dactylifera but I can't rule out silvestris. Not enough details and the lighting makes it hard to see the color and shades of green.

Hello

Brahea Axel Thanks for your input. Here some pics with more definition.

[foxtail]

Hi

Phoenikakias what do you think ?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

The coloring, leaflet arrangement and thorn/petiole length make me lean towards dactylifera, but Konstantinos has more experience than I do with the phoenix genus and can give you a better definite ID at this stage of maturity.

[foxtail]

Entire ...

Edited August 7, 2014 by foxtail

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Oh yeah, that's a dactylifera.

[foxtail]

Oh yeah, that's a dactylifera.

i don't know what happen with the palms nurseries?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Canary date palms have leaflets that are more linear and more in a plane on each side. Take a careful look at the fronds on the picture below. Dark green, very orderly. On dactylifera the leaflets are not well confined in a plane.

(Photo from https://www.willisorchards.com/product/canary-island-date-palm-tree)

Trying to grow a p. canariensis is a bit of a waste of time in Puerto Rico, they are very, very sensitive fo fungal infection and thus don't do well in tropical wet Summer conditions.