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Anybody growing any of the exotic mules?


Mauna Kea Cloudforest

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Does anyone have some more mature versions of the exotic mules from Patric? I just purchased the following from Patric at our Norcal IPS meeting and I wanted to see some more mature specimens so I would like to know how to place them in my landscape. I assume they're typical mule size but the paraguayensis is dwarfing, so perhaps that mule isn't as tall.

The mules I am talking about are:

1) Butia paraguayensis x queen

2) Butia yatay x queen

3) Butia poni x queen, also known as the "poni mule".

I don't have a photo of the mother for cross #1,

The mother of cross #3 is shown below in Dick Douglas' garden. It's the one on the left and Dick Douglas grew it from seed he collected in Argentina under the name "butia poni", but this is thought to be a synonym of paraguayensis. It's different from other paraguayensis specimens I've seen. You can see it's already got very fine elegant leaves, so the resulting mule should look spectacular. The photo is from http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/10872-dick-douglas-butia-x-jubaea/.

photo95.jpg

The parent of cross number one is probably Dick Douglas' Yatay which is shown below. It does look similar in appearance to the poni butia. It has even finer leaves. This photo is from http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/4114-dick-douglas-garden/.

photo14.jpg

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Hi Axel,

Here is my B. paraguayensis X Queen I purchased from Patric back in 2009. I immediately put it in the ground as a three strap leafed baby. It has grown pretty fast and has been flowering for three years already, it's an elegant looking palm,

20140715_124548_zpsf4imx01f.jpg

I'll throw in a pic of my (BXJ)xQ purchased at the same time, It's windy here today so she looks a bit messy

20140715_124624_zpszywkl7ft.jpg

Matt in Temecula, CA

Hot and dry in the summer, cold with light frost in the winter. Halfway between the desert and ocean

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In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Matt! Glad to see you landed back here on PalmTalk!

  • Upvote 1

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

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I think the yatay xButiagrus is the nicest looking one when young, but the pictures I've seen of it in South America as an adult look horrible. I wonder why that is!

Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

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I think the yatay xButiagrus is the nicest looking one when young, but the pictures I've seen of it in South America as an adult look horrible. I wonder why that is!

I think most palms look better in the adolescent stage than at full maturity.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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Matt, that paraguayensis butiagrus looks fantastic! Now I know where I need to plant mine. I also picked up a (BXJ)xQ, that makes for a nice diversity of butiagrus to plant around the garden. I always wanted to get a few more mules but I am glad I held off until I had access to this wide array of different types of mules.

Keith Z, the poni mule looks pretty amazing to me, the mature butiagrus in Gilroy (Debbie's garden) is most likely a poni mule and looks much better than regular mules. And the poni butia is a synonym for yatay. This looks pretty cocoides (cocosesque) to me.

20130223_150342_zpsdd3f928d.jpg

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Matt, that paraguayensis butiagrus looks fantastic! Now I know where I need to plant mine. I also picked up a (BXJ)xQ, that makes for a nice diversity of butiagrus to plant around the garden. I always wanted to get a few more mules but I am glad I held off until I had access to this wide array of different types of mules.

Keith Z, the poni mule looks pretty amazing to me, the mature butiagrus in Gilroy (Debbie's garden) is most likely a poni mule and looks much better than regular mules. And the poni butia is a synonym for yatay. This looks pretty cocoides (cocosesque) to me.

Here's some pics to let you decide. It looks messier than a regular mule to me

http://www.pacsoa.org.au/wiki/Butyagrus_yatay_x_romanzoffiana

Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

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I hate to say it...but they all look like regular BxS to me.....subtle differences can also be achieved by normal variations among standard BxS..........ok I'm prepared to take the verbal abuse now...

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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David, I don't think that's quite true. For one, the butia paraguayensis mule that Matt posted a picture of looks very different from the regular mule. And here are the pictures from PACSOA, they look pretty nice and unique to me. There's an interesting discussion on the variation of regular butiagrus, see http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/12259-butyagrus-variations/. Unfortunately, Gary moved his pictures, so you can't see them anymore. But in the rest of the thread none of them look like the Yatay mule.

Butyagrus_yatayXromanzoffiana.jpg

Butyagrus_yatayXromanzoffiana02.jpg

The last one looks messy, but that's a cultivation problem more than an actual issue for the palm itself. Palms in the wild sometimes look ratty and attractive.

Butyagrus_yatayXromanzoffiana04.jpg

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Seems to me butia paraguayensis has stronger genes than odorata. Alberto's Paraguay x parajubs look much more like butia than Dick Douglas' palm of odorata x parajub. And Paraguay mules look more like a butia than other mules. But.................... as David pointed out, there is so much variability within hybrids its really hard to predict their final appearance.

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Debbie's mules in Gilroy make me sick every time I see them. I feel like I could buy 1000 mules and none of them would turn out that nice. I will say this again..... If I knew they would look like Debbie's, I would buy about ten mules tomorrow.

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Any chance somebody could post a picture of Debbie's mules?

Steve

Peoria AZ

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I hate to say it...but they all look like regular BxS to me.....subtle differences can also be achieved by normal variations among standard BxS..........ok I'm prepared to take the verbal abuse now...

David, if you see the standard Mule and Yatay Mule side by side there is no mistaking the differences. While they have some similarities in other ways they look very different. If you ever find yourself in Louisiana stop by to see. But I'll probably make it your way first, with Lejeune's French Bread and Boudin. See, I haven't forgotten.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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here's one

That's my photo, next time ask before uploading to PalmTalk. As I said before, these are probably poni mules. That's what made the rounds in the Bay area, and those are old enough to be poni mules.

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I think the yatay xButiagrus is the nicest looking one when young, but the pictures I've seen of it in South America as an adult look horrible. I wonder why that is!

In every hobby there's always a freakshow element.

Maybe I'm spoiled as don't need to push zones. But these are truly the ugliest dogs in the plant world.

Woof Woof

The Palm Mahal

Hollywood Fla

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Axel, I can't remember where I got that picture. It doesn't have the name of the photographer on it in the form of a watermark or something like that. How would I know it was yours and thus ask you if I can upload it? To me, if you put a picture online, you understand that it has the potential to be copied, downloaded, altered, reposted etc. Someone could download your picture and then use it for an ad for poni mules on ebay for instance.

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Axel, I can't remember where I got that picture. It doesn't have the name of the photographer on it in the form of a watermark or something like that. How would I know it was yours and thus ask you if I can upload it? To me, if you put a picture online, you understand that it has the potential to be copied, downloaded, altered, reposted etc. Someone could download your picture and then use it for an ad for poni mules on ebay for instance.

If you open a liquor store, you understand it has the potential to be robbed. Sorry dude, but there are copyright laws, and usually, the most liberal license requires attribution. I don't mind sharing my photos, but I put them on PalmTalk to be linked from Photobucket, not to be uploaded to PalmTalk because people violate the license. On Photobucket I have the option to add a watermark. I recently got in trouble with Dean for doing exactly as you did, so I stopped doing this. You can use the link from Photobucket and put an attribution, but do not upload to PalmTalk.

I think the yatay xButiagrus is the nicest looking one when young, but the pictures I've seen of it in South America as an adult look horrible. I wonder why that is!

In every hobby there's always a freakshow element.

Maybe I'm spoiled as don't need to push zones. But these are truly the ugliest dogs in the plant world.

Woof Woof

I understand that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but your words are unnecessarily harsh. There is nothing freakshow-ish about mules, but if you don't like butia, you won't like mules either. Besides, theres' no need to grow a mule where you can grow coconuts, the mule is an attempt at bringing out the cocoides look for a hardier climate. In that regards, they are quite successful.

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OK, I get it. You don't want your photos copied, etc. I'm sorry that I did that.

I was in no way trying to profit from your picture or anything like that. I was simply sharing information on this forum. Which is what the forum is for, right?

I wish I remember how I got the photo off of this forum. I wonder if, at any point, while I was saving it to my hard drive, I was presented information stating that the picture was copyrighted. If I was not presented this, then you should reconsider how you post pics online to prevent another unsuspecting, innocent, naïve, plant enthusiast from repeating my transgression.

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If these were the palms that grew for me I would not grow palms.

Luckily this is not the case

Steve

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Axel, I can't remember where I got that picture. It doesn't have the name of the photographer on it in the form of a watermark or something like that. How would I know it was yours and thus ask you if I can upload it? To me, if you put a picture online, you understand that it has the potential to be copied, downloaded, altered, reposted etc. Someone could download your picture and then use it for an ad for poni mules on ebay for instance.

If you open a liquor store, you understand it has the potential to be robbed. Sorry dude, but there are copyright laws, and usually, the most liberal license requires attribution. I don't mind sharing my photos, but I put them on PalmTalk to be linked from Photobucket, not to be uploaded to PalmTalk because people violate the license. On Photobucket I have the option to add a watermark. I recently got in trouble with Dean for doing exactly as you did, so I stopped doing this. You can use the link from Photobucket and put an attribution, but do not upload to PalmTalk.

Axel, you are easily the most prolific poster on PT for the last year. Are you going to tell me that you asked permission for every photo, link, etc. that you have posted? If so, good for you cause that would be a very long list and a lot of work, but I am betting not. Maybe even post 10 above, did you seek permission from those parties to share those photos. That photo was posted on the open internet with no attempt what so ever to apply copyright or origin by language or symbol. Chad did not claim it was his in any way, simple reposted it in the same forum from which it probably came. A watermark of origin at the minimum needs to be on your photos is you want to insure credit every time your photo is shared, and a copyright if you wish to attempt to prevent sharing (it won't) because you know as well as I do that although the photo was probably same from PT in reality it could have been copied many times (probably was) and come from anywhere on the net. Give a break here on this one.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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This is a thread I would be very interested in...but between the photo rights stuff and palm snobbery, it isn't turning out as I hoped for.

JMO, but take issues with other members to PM and we should all try and not make other "palm nuts" feel like what they are able to grow is somehow inadequate.

Ben Rogers

On the border of Concord & Clayton in the East Bay hills - Elev 387 ft 37.95 °N, 121.94 °W

My back yard weather station: http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/hdfForecast?query=37.954%2C-121.945&sp=KCACONCO37

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This is a thread I would be very interested in...but between the photo rights stuff and palm snobbery, it isn't turning out as I hoped for.

JMO, but take issues with other members to PM and we should all try and not make other "palm nuts" feel like what they are able to grow is somehow inadequate.

Ben,

I use mules prominently in my landscape even though I can grow a long list of cocoides palms that aren't hybrids. As much as palm snobbery might be offensive, just ignore those people. There is nothing wrong with people expressing their dislike for a particular palm, their dislike is their loss, not yours. The people who dislike the mules are generally the same folks who don't like the whole butia look, and my guess is that those people probably wouldn't be growing any palms if they didn't live in the tropics, because they really only like the super tropical looking palms. Nothing wrong with that, just their loss, that's all.

I actually agree that there are some mules that are freak shows, but that seems to be constrained to the F2 mules, i.e. second generation seedlings and some F1 mongrels. But even the "freak shows" are totally interesting. Gary has a real nice "freak show" with yellow petioles, I got in trouble on that one for calling it ugly.

As for the photo issue, I should probably have used a PM to deal with it.

Axel, I can't remember where I got that picture. It doesn't have the name of the photographer on it in the form of a watermark or something like that. How would I know it was yours and thus ask you if I can upload it? To me, if you put a picture online, you understand that it has the potential to be copied, downloaded, altered, reposted etc. Someone could download your picture and then use it for an ad for poni mules on ebay for instance.

If you open a liquor store, you understand it has the potential to be robbed. Sorry dude, but there are copyright laws, and usually, the most liberal license requires attribution. I don't mind sharing my photos, but I put them on PalmTalk to be linked from Photobucket, not to be uploaded to PalmTalk because people violate the license. On Photobucket I have the option to add a watermark. I recently got in trouble with Dean for doing exactly as you did, so I stopped doing this. You can use the link from Photobucket and put an attribution, but do not upload to PalmTalk.

Axel, you are easily the most prolific poster on PT for the last year. Are you going to tell me that you asked permission for every photo, link, etc. that you have posted? If so, good for you cause that would be a very long list and a lot of work, but I am betting not. Maybe even post 10 above, did you seek permission from those parties to share those photos. That photo was posted on the open internet with no attempt what so ever to apply copyright or origin by language or symbol. Chad did not claim it was his in any way, simple reposted it in the same forum from which it probably came. A watermark of origin at the minimum needs to be on your photos is you want to insure credit every time your photo is shared, and a copyright if you wish to attempt to prevent sharing (it won't) because you know as well as I do that although the photo was probably same from PT in reality it could have been copied many times (probably was) and come from anywhere on the net. Give a break here on this one.

With all due respect Keith, this is none of your business, they're not your photos. That photo is particularly nice and could very well end up on E-Bay, which I don't want. My photos are distributed under a non-commercial creative commons license, and I have no issues with people using the photobucket links and re-posting the photos that way, but I don't want it uploaded to PalmTalk. I do post a lot and I've been reprimanded by the board for one photo I used without permission even without copying it. I don't see why others should be treated differently from me.

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This is a thread I would be very interested in...but between the photo rights stuff and palm snobbery, it isn't turning out as I hoped for.

JMO, but take issues with other members to PM and we should all try and not make other "palm nuts" feel like what they are able to grow is somehow inadequate.

Ben,

I use mules prominently in my landscape even though I can grow a long list of cocoides palms that aren't hybrids. As much as palm snobbery might be offensive, just ignore those people. There is nothing wrong with people expressing their dislike for a particular palm, their dislike is their loss, not yours. The people who dislike the mules are generally the same folks who don't like the whole butia look, and my guess is that those people probably wouldn't be growing any palms if they didn't live in the tropics, because they really only like the super tropical looking palms. Nothing wrong with that, just their loss, that's all.

I actually agree that there are some mules that are freak shows, but that seems to be constrained to the F2 mules, i.e. second generation seedlings and some F1 mongrels. But even the "freak shows" are totally interesting. Gary has a real nice "freak show" with yellow petioles, I got in trouble on that one for calling it ugly.

As for the photo issue, I should probably have used a PM to deal with it.

Axel, I can't remember where I got that picture. It doesn't have the name of the photographer on it in the form of a watermark or something like that. How would I know it was yours and thus ask you if I can upload it? To me, if you put a picture online, you understand that it has the potential to be copied, downloaded, altered, reposted etc. Someone could download your picture and then use it for an ad for poni mules on ebay for instance.

If you open a liquor store, you understand it has the potential to be robbed. Sorry dude, but there are copyright laws, and usually, the most liberal license requires attribution. I don't mind sharing my photos, but I put them on PalmTalk to be linked from Photobucket, not to be uploaded to PalmTalk because people violate the license. On Photobucket I have the option to add a watermark. I recently got in trouble with Dean for doing exactly as you did, so I stopped doing this. You can use the link from Photobucket and put an attribution, but do not upload to PalmTalk.

Axel, you are easily the most prolific poster on PT for the last year. Are you going to tell me that you asked permission for every photo, link, etc. that you have posted? If so, good for you cause that would be a very long list and a lot of work, but I am betting not. Maybe even post 10 above, did you seek permission from those parties to share those photos. That photo was posted on the open internet with no attempt what so ever to apply copyright or origin by language or symbol. Chad did not claim it was his in any way, simple reposted it in the same forum from which it probably came. A watermark of origin at the minimum needs to be on your photos is you want to insure credit every time your photo is shared, and a copyright if you wish to attempt to prevent sharing (it won't) because you know as well as I do that although the photo was probably same from PT in reality it could have been copied many times (probably was) and come from anywhere on the net. Give a break here on this one.

With all due respect Keith, this is none of your business, they're not your photos. That photo is particularly nice and could very well end up on E-Bay, which I don't want. My photos are distributed under a non-commercial creative commons license, and I have no issues with people using the photobucket links and re-posting the photos that way, but I don't want it uploaded to PalmTalk. I do post a lot and I've been reprimanded by the board for one photo I used without permission even without copying it. I don't see why others should be treated differently from me.

I am sorry you were reprimanded Axel, but when you posted that comment publicly in the forum rather than in a PM to Chad you made it everyone's business. But you're right I am out of this as any further conversation would be pointless.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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post-97-0-45508500-1405701432_thumb.jpg

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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What would be the most un-butia like hybrid....any pictures?

David Simms zone 9a on Highway 30a

200 steps from the Gulf in NW Florida

30 ft. elevation and sandy soil

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What would be the most un-butia like hybrid....any pictures?

I think the yatay mules are the least butia like, more resembling Parajubaea than a Butia.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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This is a thread I would be very interested in...but between the photo rights stuff and palm snobbery, it isn't turning out as I hoped for.

JMO, but take issues with other members to PM and we should all try and not make other "palm nuts" feel like what they are able to grow is somehow inadequate.

Ben,

I use mules prominently in my landscape even though I can grow a long list of cocoides palms that aren't hybrids. As much as palm snobbery might be offensive, just ignore those people. There is nothing wrong with people expressing their dislike for a particular palm, their dislike is their loss, not yours. The people who dislike the mules are generally the same folks who don't like the whole butia look, and my guess is that those people probably wouldn't be growing any palms if they didn't live in the tropics, because they really only like the super tropical looking palms. Nothing wrong with that, just their loss, that's all.

I actually agree that there are some mules that are freak shows, but that seems to be constrained to the F2 mules, i.e. second generation seedlings and some F1 mongrels. But even the "freak shows" are totally interesting. Gary has a real nice "freak show" with yellow petioles, I got in trouble on that one for calling it ugly.

As for the photo issue, I should probably have used a PM to deal with it.

Yeah, you're right Axel. Maybe I should just start trolling every Dypsis thread (e.g. they all look the freaking same people, buy one and be done with it) to return the favor. :mrlooney:

  • Upvote 1

Ben Rogers

On the border of Concord & Clayton in the East Bay hills - Elev 387 ft 37.95 °N, 121.94 °W

My back yard weather station: http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/hdfForecast?query=37.954%2C-121.945&sp=KCACONCO37

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Here's a picture of Dick"s Butia paraguayensis, the mother of these hybrids.

038.jpg

Here's a shot of a Palm I purchased as Butia paraguayensis. It was a great find, the seller didn't think he had anymore, but on one of my many trips to his place, found this one in with a bunch of different palms with no obvious tag, until I dug around in the soil. It's been flowering for 3 or 4 years now.

20140725_092755_zpsvin2vkob.jpg

It's never set seed, but this year it looks like it might.

20140725_092802_zps5y7kvg1k.jpg

Here's another of my B. p. X Q after I cleaned her up a bit and no wind. The leaflets are definitely finer than my other mules.

20140725_093441_zpsukygoysy.jpg

Matt in Temecula, CA

Hot and dry in the summer, cold with light frost in the winter. Halfway between the desert and ocean

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Matt, didn't you sprout some Butia X Cocos seeds a few years back? Did those ever turn out to be anything?

Keith 

Palmetto, Florida (10a) and Tampa, Florida (9b/10a)

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I did Keith, I have a few in the ground, just gone pinnate, but nothing definitive yet, they''ll have to grow a few more years before I can be sure of what I have.

Matt in Temecula, CA

Hot and dry in the summer, cold with light frost in the winter. Halfway between the desert and ocean

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Here's a picture of Dick"s Butia paraguayensis, the mother of these hybrids.

038.jpg

Here's a shot of a Palm I purchased as Butia paraguayensis. It was a great find, the seller didn't think he had anymore, but on one of my many trips to his place, found this one in with a bunch of different palms with no obvious tag, until I dug around in the soil. It's been flowering for 3 or 4 years now.

20140725_092755_zpsvin2vkob.jpg

It's never set seed, but this year it looks like it might.

20140725_092802_zps5y7kvg1k.jpg

Here's another of my B. p. X Q after I cleaned her up a bit and no wind. The leaflets are definitely finer than my other mules.

20140725_093441_zpsukygoysy.jpg

I ended up buying a fat little pure butia paraguayensis from Patric, it looks a lot like yours. But I am having a hard time imagining how that dwarf little thing is going to turn into what Dick Douglas had, his was so much bigger.

Definitely try to ripen that seed and get some offsprings. Not a lot of butia paraguayensis around.

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I sure will Axel.

I don't remember exactly, but I believe Dick said that his B. paraguayensis was 25 to 28 years old ? I have two like the one pictured and they don't seem to put on much size, even though they consistently put out new growth. I'll have to see if I have an older picture.

Matt in Temecula, CA

Hot and dry in the summer, cold with light frost in the winter. Halfway between the desert and ocean

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Well, I guess it has grown. Here it is in Dec 08

post-1261-0-90361800-1406815969_thumb.jp

Matt in Temecula, CA

Hot and dry in the summer, cold with light frost in the winter. Halfway between the desert and ocean

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