Promising news for Beccariophoenix alfredii cold tolerance

[Xhoniwaters1]

This shows new growth from my Beccariophoenix alfredii which completely defoliated and spear loss from 4 nights into the 20's this past winter. It had ZERO protection and was completely exposed in my yard during the first and ultimate low of 21 degrees. We had freezing rain and sleet in one duration. I covered it with a large pot with that event to protect the growth point as well as one event with a low of 23. I dug it up a potted it just recently before I saw the new growth. Good news for those who live in zone 9a who want to believe this palm is possible. Before the freezing weather hit, it was about 3' and healthy.

[_Keith]

Nice, the ones I got from Tropicdoc did get some minimal protection because they had been in the ground not much more than 6 months, and are all pushing new spears at this time. I am still on the fence long term, but somewhat enthused short term.

[stevethegator]

Someone needs to start field growing these babies so they can be transplanted to the more marginal areas at trunking size, I bet they would be much hardier then!

[Alicehunter2000]

Thats great news....a much more coconut lookalike than mules IMO.

Never really considered it viable up here until now.

Going to have some great news concerning Bizmarkia as well .... coming soon. ..

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

No way this is a hardy palm. Our freeze last Winter pretty much illustrated the point quite well for me. My upper garden remained USDA 10a with a low of 31F. My lower more Wind protected garden hit 27F and had 9 hours below freezing for 4 nights. I planted a large, solid 20 gallon specimen down there. No sign of damage until about March, when the spear pulled and the last new frond started to turn color.

All the specimens in my upper garden fared quite well. However, another large specimen under canopy was in the middle of opening a new frond when it hit 31F. It ended up getting a couple of spots. It was very, very minor, but it illustrates how the spear and the heart of this palm has zero hardiness whatsoever. Yes, you can get it to survive in 9a, but why would you want to? A smaller seedling did survive the 27F down there without spear pull, but that one was growing under canopy. I can't imagine what 20F would do to it. Apparently Keith's specimens made it.

I used to think this was a good hardy palm after reading the reports, but now I am convinced this is a USDA 10a palm that has some marginal survival possibilities in 9b climates, with semi-tropical 9b being much more suitable than Mediterranean 9b so it can recover from occasional spear pull. But in 9a it's going to take up precious room where you could grow something else that would actually look good.

[Phoenikakias]

Just one question, do you treat affected palnts preventively after each freeze event with antibacterial and antifungal substances? I mean, how one can be sure that 'freeze damage' appearing several months after the event is the result of primary mechanical damage of meristem and not a of a secondary infection?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Just one question, do you treat affected palnts preventively after each freeze event with antibacterial and antifungal substances? I mean, how one can be sure that 'freeze damage' appearing several months after the event is the result of primary mechanical damage of meristem and not a of a secondary infection?

Would you ever know this? I didn't pull on the spear after the freeze, but judging from the level of rot in there, I could have tugged on that spear 6 weeks earlier and it would surely have come loose. Correlation doesn't imply causation, but I think the likelihood that the freeze was the culprit is pretty high. As a rule of thumb I don't put peroxide or fungicide unless I see damage of some sort. I didn't bother to mark the spear because I had such high confidence in this palm. I should have marked it, and I would have found out it stopped growing, and then treating it with fungicide would have been a good preventative measure. This palm didn't show any growth on the spear, yet all my other alfredii were putting out new very visible spear growth in our Winter heat.

My assessment of this palm is that it's less hardy than a bismarckia, but requires less heat to grow than a bismarckia.

[LJG]

Axel, it is safe to assume it was the freeze. A few things can lead to crown rot and one of the easiest ways is for a freeze to damage the growing point to where the positive seal is broke and fungus gets in and goes nuts. If you grow marginal palms and you have a freeze, I would always consider a fungicide preventive treatment or a regular H2O2 treatment in the crown until warmer weather has arrived and the plant has time to heal itself.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Axel, it is safe to assume it was the freeze. A few things can lead to crown rot and one of the easiest ways is for a freeze to damage the growing point to where the positive seal is broke and fungus gets in and goes nuts. If you grow marginal palms and you have a freeze, I would always consider a fungicide preventive treatment or a regular H2O2 treatment in the crown until warmer weather has arrived and the plant has time to heal itself.

Yes, that makes sense, but I am not going to run around and pour H2O2 into all my spears after a freeze, It'll take me weeks. So I need to know if a palm is marginal or not. I won't know that if I baby them. This specimen was planted for exactly that purpose - test in what I know to be the coldest microclimate in my garden. I had two tests down there, and both failed: wallichia densiflora and b. alfredii. The wallichia had a solid spear but was 100% fried, so I chucked it. I just wanted to know how much I can push it. Same with the alfredii. The alfredii will stay to see how quickly it will re-generate. Doesn't look good I should say. I could use the room for something else.

[Sutter Bob]

I am also a bit disappointed in this one, and would not necessarily recommend it for the Sacramento Valley but I haven't entirely given up on it either.

My only halfway decent survivors have overhead cover.

Out in the open they are toasted here.

That being said the two with cover are certainly growing now.

[Xhoniwaters1]

Weather permitting I could see these having a nice 10 year run of undamaged growth in my location.

[_Keith]

Weather permitting I could see these having a nice 10 year run of undamaged growth in my location.

Exactly. Another factor no one is discussing is how much genetic variance there may be in this palm. I don't we have enough experience with them to know much in that area.

[Tropicdoc]

Growth rate here would be a factor. For example, a lot of queens are burnt to a crisp here. But, they grow so fast, they will have a decent crown in a year or two. If alfredii survives a 9a freeze event, but takes forever to regrow a new crown, it is not of much utility in a 9a landscape. That being said, it is so close to a cocos, I will probably try some again

[Xhoniwaters1]

Weather permitting I could see these having a nice 10 year run of undamaged growth in my location.

Exactly. Another factor no one is discussing is how much genetic variance there may be in this palm. I don't we have enough experience with them to know much in that area.

Agree Keith. From what I have also seen is that these seem to hold out very well in our long cold, wet winters. It's basically a waiting game for the warmer weather in spring. I would say alfredii holds out about like a queen palm regarding the cooler wet time period we have in winter. I do notice substantial growth as well for the cold period of winter. The handful that I have had for about three years have seen multiple dips into the upper 20's and lower 30's without any effect. They saw those temperatures in pots.

[Alicehunter2000]

They can't grow coconuts in California, even in areas that are warm enough. Point being that although west coast experiences are helpful....they are not necessarily 100 percent accurate when determining our tolerances in the Southeast.

[sonoranfans]

I think all the facts should speak. Axel planted this palm last summer before the cold event if I recall correctly, not really enough time to get established and then he put it in a low cold/wet spot and ignored it. Everyone who grows palms should understand that palms with no established root systems are not going to be as cold hardy as an established palm. Axel has also had spear pull on several other palms even before it got really cold, so I don't know if repeated condensation or overhead watering was an issue along with not treating an unestablished palm. I have 3 BA 5-9' overall and the one that gets "sprinkler rain" from my irrigation system looks really sickly, they don't like overhead water. Time will tell with Beccariophoenix alfredii, but I consider Axels data point as an unestablished palm not to be representative of one with established roots. And BA grows some deep roots once established in my 9B yard. I expect BA could be 9B long term, but I seriously doubt its a 9a palm.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I think all the facts should speak. Axel planted this palm last summer before the cold event if I recall correctly, not really enough time to get established and then he put it in a low cold/wet spot and ignored it. Everyone who grows palms should understand that palms with no established root systems are not going to be as cold hardy as an established palm. Axel has also had spear pull on several other palms even before it got really cold, so I don't know if repeated condensation or overhead watering was an issue along with not treating an unestablished palm. I have 3 BA 5-9' overall and the one that gets "sprinkler rain" from my irrigation system looks really sickly, they don't like overhead water. Time will tell with Beccariophoenix alfredii, but I consider Axels data point as an unestablished palm not to be representative of one with established roots. And BA grows some deep roots once established in my 9B yard. I expect BA could be 9B long term, but I seriously doubt its a 9a palm.

What You're saying is not far off from what I am saying. Ask Glenn how his more established BA are doing. I bet not so well.

The specimen I planted in my lower garden has an enormous root system: 5g size above in a 20g pot.

[Xhoniwaters1]

Annual frost seems to be the buzz kill for BA. I'd imagine you would still have a ratty looking palm most days in 10a if you get a lot of frost each year.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

You hit the nail on the head. In many ways, alfrediis are Winter hardy. They don't mind cold soil, older leaves are relatively robust, they even develop a little glaucous covering on the petioles which must help with making them more hardy. And they seem to be able to take a certain amount of sub-freezing temperatures.

But the buzz kill is frost and the cold tender spear. King palms have spears that are much hardier than alfredii. Even in Southern California, I remember after last year's Jan (2013) freeze, I saw many alffredii that just looked ratty. Someone even had 15 gallons at a good price and I refused to buy them. I remember thinking it had to be something genetic, and that perhaps those were really "no windows". But as it turns out, alfredii is about as hardy than 'no windows'.

[Tropicdoc]

what we need is one to make pollen so someone can hybridize with Butia!

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Well, who would have guessed? The alfredii with spear pull has quite quickly gone about to replace the spear. It's pushing new growth now. Perhaps these things are tougher than I thought.

[Ben in Norcal]

Well, who would have guessed? The alfredii with spear pull has quite quickly gone about to replace the spear. It's pushing new growth now. Perhaps these things are tougher than I thought.

I think they are. My seedlings all survived the winter and are all showing growth. But those that were out of the greenhouse are looking a bit rough now that the weather has warmed. I put a big 15g in the ground in March, out in the open, so we're going to find out if they are truly tenable in the Bay Area. I think the survivability is there, but I'm concerned they'll get really beat up every winter and take all summer to grow out of it. We'll see!

[_Keith]

Well, after a tough winter, by the 1st week in July the B. alfredii have easily put back on more foliage than they lost. And we still 3 months of prime growing season left. This is promising.

[stevethegator]

That'd be great if they could make it in Louisiana!

[Alicehunter2000]

Hmmm

[Tropicdoc]

Well that's nice Keith! Maybe we can grow a deciduous coconut!

[Tropicdoc]

I got two more btw on a whim

[ghar41]

Yes, I've grown tired of these. The spears will push with help of H202, but take a while to recover...and mine seem to be fighting nutrient uptake problems routinely (yellowing and spotting.)

I'm thinking this palm may fit into the "heat index" category with Bismarkia, Psuedophoenix sargentii and Roystonea regia- all palms that do poorly for me or worse. In Phoenix and Houston mature palms of these species have grown well, even though their low temperatures exceed mine. These cities have higher average temperatures year around than I do though.

To be honest, I don't know the strict data on this. I just know that the climates in these areas are all around warmer than mine, but get blasted by freezing air falling from the North from time to time.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Glenn, it's a soil issue. I've had tremendous results with iron sulfate. This seems to be the secret for growing Madagascar palms.

[ghar41]

Yes, I use iron and it gives good results (see pic) but with frost damage, spear pull and iron supplementing that is a constant uphill battle. I just don't get to see enough good days with this palm, and it's too much work.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I have not had mine long enough to judge how well it will do here. I can attest to the fact that my biggest specimen grew right through the Winter and I got two new 5 foot long fronds between November and April. That's pretty dynamite.

[ghar41]

I have not had mine long enough to judge how well it will do here. I can attest to the fact that my biggest specimen grew right through the Winter and I got two new 5 foot long fronds between November and April. That's pretty dynamite.

It would be super to see some good specimens growing in NorCal. The pictures Ive seen of mature trees are outrageous.

[Ben in Norcal]

I have not had mine long enough to judge how well it will do here. I can attest to the fact that my biggest specimen grew right through the Winter and I got two new 5 foot long fronds between November and April. That's pretty dynamite.

It would be super to see some good specimens growing in NorCal. The pictures Ive seen of mature trees are outrageous.

I planted a big 15g in March. We'll see how it goes.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I have not had mine long enough to judge how well it will do here. I can attest to the fact that my biggest specimen grew right through the Winter and I got two new 5 foot long fronds between November and April. That's pretty dynamite.

It would be super to see some good specimens growing in NorCal. The pictures Ive seen of mature trees are outrageous.

I planted a big 15g in March. We'll see how it goes.

The bigger the better, takes more cold to slow them down.

[Hammer]

I have not had mine long enough to judge how well it will do here. I can attest to the fact that my biggest specimen grew right through the Winter and I got two new 5 foot long fronds between November and April. That's pretty dynamite.

It would be super to see some good specimens growing in NorCal. The pictures Ive seen of mature trees are outrageous.

I planted a big 15g in March. We'll see how it goes.

The bigger the better, takes more cold to slow them down.

How large were yours when they went into the ground Axel?

[DoomsDave]

I have three big ones about 7 feet tall now. Still no trunks but getting fat across the base.

In the middle of January 2013 I had a freeze that hit 25 F one night and they didn't suffer any damage, not even yellowing that I could see. These had been in the ground for about 6 years, so they weren't newly planted by any means.

I suspect a few more degrees lower might be different.

[_Keith]

It will be combination of cold and wet in the southeast that will be the true test, I think.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I have not had mine long enough to judge how well it will do here. I can attest to the fact that my biggest specimen grew right through the Winter and I got two new 5 foot long fronds between November and April. That's pretty dynamite.

It would be super to see some good specimens growing in NorCal. The pictures Ive seen of mature trees are outrageous.

I planted a big 15g in March. We'll see how it goes.

The bigger the better, takes more cold to slow them down.

How large were yours when they went into the ground Axel?

I did my usual stint: trying different sizes all over the garden when i try a new promising species. I'll list the sizes and the results here:

1) Hawaii grown 7g with 6 feet of top growth, biggest base girth of all of them, that is and continues to be the most beautiful and best grower I have. It has strongly purple petioles. Planted in my upper garden with overhead canopy but full sun towards the Southwest (in full sun starting at 12 noon in Winter, 2PM in Summer) where it saw 5 nights of low 30's last December. No setback on this one ever.

2) Inland dry California grown 20g pot with massive roots but only about 2 feet of top growth. It's odd how different and more compact the California grown one is. Planted in my lower garden in full exposure as an experiment. It got to 27F with sub-30F temps 5 days in a row last December. It showed zero damage, but later in late March the spear pulled. Spear re-appeared in late May and it grew right out of the spear rot. The spear did not pull even two months after the freeze. No idea what happened and why the spear pulled. I did use overhead water out of my rain collection bucket, which is non-potable, very dirty water.

3) 2 x 1g Floribunda palms, one in the lower garden, one in the upper garden. Neither was damaged or had spear pull last Winter. One was fully exposed to 27F. One of the 1g plants was only 10 feet away from the big one that lost its spear. This is why I think the spear loss on the big one might have been from watering it with dirty water.

4) 2 x 2g from Perry in SLO, originally Floribunda, one is in full shade. No setback from the cold on either one. The one in the picture below is the one in a lot of shade, it's stretched and seems slower. Sorry for the fuzzy picture, I have a piece of garbage Galaxy SIII, and there isn't a day where I don't wish to just toss that phone out the window. AT&T and Samsung have ruined the Android experience with their crappy apps, including the camera which can't focus worth beans.

[Hammer]

I have three big ones about 7 feet tall now. Still no trunks but getting fat across the base.

In the middle of January 2013 I had a freeze that hit 25 F one night and they didn't suffer any damage, not even yellowing that I could see. These had been in the ground for about 6 years, so they weren't newly planted by any means.

I suspect a few more degrees lower might be different.

Have any updated photos to share DD?