How to germinate RPS seeds?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I've made a lot of purchases from RPS last year, and while I usually have good success with my own field collected seeds, I've had almost no success at germinating any RPS seeds. So far, out of about 25 species over the last 12 months, I've managed to get only five to germinate: livistona mulleri, chamadorea woodsoniana, bismarckia, arch. purpurea and ceroxylon ventricosum.

The rest have been a futile attempt, no sign of life whatsoever. I use coconut fiber in baggies and I use bottom heat on the heat loving species. Am I doing something wrong? Is it an issue with seed freshness?

[richnorm]

If you are serious would need species and dates.

[edric]

Click your heels three times, and say there's no place like home!

[Sabal Steve]

I've made a lot of purchases from RPS last year, and while I usually have good success with my own field collected seeds, I've had almost no success at germinating any RPS seeds. So far, out of about 25 species over the last 12 months, I've managed to get only five to germinate: livistona mulleri, chamadorea woodsoniana, bismarckia, arch. purpurea and ceroxylon ventricosum.

The rest have been a futile attempt, no sign of life whatsoever. I use coconut fiber in baggies and I use bottom heat on the heat loving species. Am I doing something wrong? Is it an issue with seed freshness?

I've made a lot of purchases from RPS last year, and while I usually have good success with my own field collected seeds, I've had almost no success at germinating any RPS seeds. So far, out of about 25 species over the last 12 months, I've managed to get only five to germinate: livistona mulleri, chamadorea woodsoniana, bismarckia, arch. purpurea and ceroxylon ventricosum.

The rest have been a futile attempt, no sign of life whatsoever. I use coconut fiber in baggies and I use bottom heat on the heat loving species. Am I doing something wrong? Is it an issue with seed freshness?

Do you soak them?

[Zeeth]

I had good success with my only batch from RPS by soaking them for 3 days first

[Tyrone]

It's all about seed freshness. Make sure you order from the new listed stock. Some species don't matter (desert species) too much on freshness, but Pinangas and wet tropics species need to be real fresh to do well.

[sgvcns]

Nailed it Tyrone

Fresh is best.

Even then no guarantees

[Xhoniwaters1]

They need to be more transparent with the time the seed was harvested. Ordered once from them...very minimal success. Definitely a expiration issue. With the price you pay, you'd expect better quality. They might as well have sent me a baggie full of dirt! RPS isn't a charity last I checked. I hope they improve their seed service b/c it is nice to have a good seed vendor around when you are looking for something specific to grow.

[NorthFlpalmguy]

I imagine as most posters that it's a freshness issue. There use to be a guy who sold me wholesale seeds and took a (dated) pic of the palm w/ seeds before they were harvested and sent it along with the different species I bought. He was pretty good about his freshness also. Maybe RPS should do the same.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

If you are serious would need species and dates.

Here's the batch from last Summer. I have another batch from this Winter, that one has zero germination across the board. Most frustrating is ceroxylon peruvianum, zero so far after 6 month, $100 for 10 seeds. Probably the last time I take a risk like that.

(Dear Customer,

Thank you for your order dated 14-07-2013 at 09:15.)

Item: Archontophoenix purpurea

Price EUR: 10.00

Quantity: 1

Ext. Price EUR: 10.00

100% germination rate (with bottom heat)

Item: Attalea rostrata

Price EUR: 12.20

Quantity: 1

Ext. Price EUR: 12.20

No germination (with bottom heat)

Item: Brahea decumbens

Price EUR: 10.70

Quantity: 1

Ext. Price EUR: 10.70

50% germination rate (with bottom heat)

Item: Brahea nitida (= B. calcarea)

Price EUR: 5.90

Quantity: 1

Ext. Price EUR: 5.90

No germination (with bottom heat)

Item: Brahea pimo

Price EUR: 13.60

Quantity: 1

Ext. Price EUR: 13.60

No germination (with bottom heat)

Item: Brahea sp. (Super Silver)

Price EUR: 5.60

Quantity: 1

Ext. Price EUR: 5.60

50% germination rate (with bottom heat)

Item: Geonoma undata

Price EUR: 7.20

Quantity: 2

Ext. Price EUR: 14.40

Zero germination rate room temperature

Item: Guihaia argyrata

Price EUR: 5.30

Quantity: 2

Ext. Price EUR: 10.60

100% germination rate (with bottom heat)

Item: Howea belmoreana

Price EUR: 10.40

Quantity: 1

Ext. Price EUR: 10.40

Zero germination rate room temperature

Item: Livistona australis

Price EUR: 5.80

Quantity: 1

Ext. Price EUR: 5.80

Didn't plant

Item: Livistona carinensis (= Wissmannia carinensis)

Price EUR: 6.20

Quantity: 1

Ext. Price EUR: 6.20

Don't know

Item: Livistona muelleri

Price EUR: 6.60

Quantity: 1

Ext. Price EUR: 6.60

100% germination rate (with bottom heat)

Item: Oraniopsis appendiculata

Price EUR: 20.00

Quantity: 1

Ext. Price EUR: 20.00

100% germination rate room temperature

Item: Pholidostachys dactyloides

Price EUR: 5.80

Quantity: 1

Ext. Price EUR: 5.80

Zero germination rate (with bottom heat)

Item: Prestoea acuminata var. acuminata (Red Crownshaft)

Price EUR: 5.60

Quantity: 2

Ext. Price EUR: 11.20

Zero germination room temperature

Item: Rhopalostylis sapida (Oceana)

Price EUR: 7.80

Quantity: 1

Ext. Price EUR: 7.80

Zero germination room temperature

Subtotal: 156.80

Discount: -15.68

Tax: 0.00

Total EUR: 141.12

[richnorm]

Item: Attalea rostrata THESE ARE NOTORIOUSLY VERY SLOW AND DIFFICULT


Item: Brahea decumbens DITTO, NEED HEAT VARIATION , TRY PUTTING THE BAG IN YOUR CAR


Item: Brahea nitida (= B. calcarea) DON'T KNOW, POSSIBLY TREAT LIKE DECUMBENS


Item: Brahea pimo DITTO


Item: Brahea sp. (Super Silver) DITTO


Item: Geonoma undata SEED MUST BE SUPER FRESH IT'S ALL OR NOTHING WITH THESE . POSSIBLY YOU GOT THEM TOO WET



Item: Howea belmoreana CAN BE VERY SLOW



Item: Pholidostachys dactyloides NO IDEA
)

Item: Prestoea acuminata var. acuminata (Red Crownshaft) MUST BE VERY FRESH, VERY TRICKY


Item: Rhopalostylis sapida (Oceana) DON'T GIVE UP, S/B EASY

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Item: Attalea rostrata THESE ARE NOTORIOUSLY VERY SLOW AND DIFFICULT

Item: Brahea decumbens DITTO, NEED HEAT VARIATION , TRY PUTTING THE BAG IN YOUR CAR

Item: Brahea nitida (= B. calcarea) DON'T KNOW, POSSIBLY TREAT LIKE DECUMBENS

Item: Brahea pimo DITTO

Item: Brahea sp. (Super Silver) DITTO

Item: Geonoma undata SEED MUST BE SUPER FRESH IT'S ALL OR NOTHING WITH THESE . POSSIBLY YOU GOT THEM TOO WET

Item: Howea belmoreana CAN BE VERY SLOW

Item: Pholidostachys dactyloides NO IDEA

)

Item: Prestoea acuminata var. acuminata (Red Crownshaft) MUST BE VERY FRESH, VERY TRICKY

Item: Rhopalostylis sapida (Oceana) DON'T GIVE UP, S/B EASY

Thanks Rich, that helps a lot. I put the brahea into the greenhouse, 50F nights and 95F days should make them grow like a charm.

[richnorm]

Might still take a few years, never give up on Brahea decumbens. Or any seed that still sinks and looks "good".

[Sabal Steve]

From what I've heard, I agree, Howea belmoreana takes a long time to germinate - like Kentias often do.

Rhapalostylis seeds are some of the easiest I've germinated. When they are fresh and warm (no bottom heat needed) they can germinated in around a month. I can send you fresh Rhopie seeds if you want.

[Sabal Steve]

I've had good experience with B. armata, sometimes within 3 months. They germinate sporadically. No luck thus far with B. edulis. It's probably been 6 months and nothing. Fresh, collected seed.

[Tyrone]

Ceroxylon can take a long time too. Put them somewhere moist and forget about them. Same with Howea. I collected hundreds of fresh seed once. The first autumn (they seem to come up in autumn here) about 10 came up, the next autumn they virtually all came up.

[Tyrone]

From what I've heard, I agree, Howea belmoreana takes a long time to germinate - like Kentias often do.

Rhapalostylis seeds are some of the easiest I've germinated. When they are fresh and warm (no bottom heat needed) they can germinated in around a month. I can send you fresh Rhopie seeds if you want.

I had some Rhopie seed I collected here that I kept inside one winter at room temp and had none come up after a few months. I put the pot outside and next winter they all popped up. They performed like Trachycarpus for me. Too much warmth and they stay asleep.

[Jonathan]

Buy from the 'New' seed list (which I assume you would) and you cant go too badly wrong.

I've found RPS to be very reliable - I've germinated over 50 species from them.

Cheers,

Jonathan

[NApalm]

Is negative feedback of a palmtalk sponsor reasonable grounds for thread deletion? There was a thread started yesterday similar to this one but with negative experiences with rps which has disappeared into the unknown. Cmon moderators. Surely we can handle negative criticism without deleting it and hoping nobody notices.

[NApalm]

Sorry to go off topic

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Is negative feedback of a palmtalk sponsor reasonable grounds for thread deletion? There was a thread started yesterday similar to this one but with negative experiences with rps which has disappeared into the unknown. Cmon moderators. Surely we can handle negative criticism without deleting it and hoping nobody notices.

I didn't post grower feedback, I posted a question about germinating RPS seeds, assuming that the seed aren't always fresh, what that means in terms of germination process. The other thread probably just got moved to grower feedback.

I like RPS, I will continue to order from them.

[NApalm]

It appears the original thread was deleted and a new post was made in palm grower/buyer ratings. Apologies to the moderators.

[Tassie_Troy1971]

G day Axel

I 18 months ago i put down 1000 Rhopalostylis oceana seeds in 50 % peat /perlite mix in large plastic containers in an unheated room and after 2 months nearly every seed germinated !

I had no luck at at with 60 Geonoma undata seed from RPS after 12 months in my shadehouse . Peter G germinated these over in Perth !

[Peter G]

What happened to those ones I germinated Troy?

[Peter G]

As far as RPS goes I think they are great, I tend to buy from the newly listed items. Australian orders sometimes can take 3 months to arrive due to AQIS.

My germination rates have improved over the years and I put that down to better germination techniques.

[pop]

For me I will choose only the item that shown new. Normally one month later will got them. Then will verify quality by soak them in normal water. Waiting ten minute then sow and pray.

Normally some of them will germinate but sometime not at all, ie
Geonoma chococola subsp. awaensis (Durango), Geonoma longevaginata and Dypsis faneva. But I'm success for Geonoma epetiolata, Ceroxylon echinulatum, .Calyptrogyne costatifrons subsp. occidentalis, Rhopalostylis baueri var. cheesemanii and  Rhopalostylis sapida (East Cape)

Edited March 28, 2014 by pop

[avanza]

pop ปิติ Thanks for this info.

Edited March 28, 2014 by avanza

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

As far as RPS goes I think they are great, I tend to buy from the newly listed items. Australian orders sometimes can take 3 months to arrive due to AQIS.

My germination rates have improved over the years and I put that down to better germination techniques.

Right, and hence the motivation to post this thread. I want to know what I can do to improve, because currently, my baggie method using coconut fiber plus bottom heat on the hot loving species and room temperature and chill loving species hasn't worked very well. What have you done to improve your rates?

[tbearz]

I have had mixed results with RPS seeds, and in the past had poor germination with both palm seeds and fern spores. One thing you might consider is changing from coconut coir to spagnum. Coconut coir, depending on manufacturer and origin, can contain a lot of sodium that can inhibit germination. A few years ago I was bemoaning my inability to get some fern spores going to a propagator of ferns at the San Francisco Botanical Garden. Her first question was whether I was using coconut coir or spagnum. When I tried spagnum with the exact same spores, they germinated and now I have some really nice Juan Fernandez Islands ferns coming along. Of course fern spores are more sensitive than palm seeds. Since that change I have had mixed results with palm seeds from RPS but the outcome seems to have improved some, if only marginally. If you get the good New Zealand spagnum, spagnum has that benefit that it has natural anti-fungal properties.

[Tassie_Troy1971]

What happened to those ones I germinated Troy?

Hi Pete

1 out of the two sprouted seeds survived and is out is my greehouse in a little pot

[Peter G]

As far as RPS goes I think they are great, I tend to buy from the newly listed items. Australian orders sometimes can take 3 months to arrive due to AQIS.

My germination rates have improved over the years and I put that down to better germination techniques.

Right, and hence the motivation to post this thread. I want to know what I can do to improve, because currently, my baggie method using coconut fiber plus bottom heat on the hot loving species and room temperature and chill loving species hasn't worked very well. What have you done to improve your rates?

When I started out, I used the Baggie method 50% perlite 50% Spagnum Moss and would by these cheap propagators from Bunnings, that had no thermostat and would pretty much fry all of my seeds. One of these propagators melted and was still heating while I was on holiday, looking back, I was lucky it didn't burn my house down!

Now my set up is as follows, I am using a big tub, with a fastened lid, I have drilled a whole in that tub and ran a heating cable in there and filled it up with wet sand, siliconed around the area where the drill whole is to make it air tight. The heating cable came from a Melbourne based company called AdloHeat, the cable had a thermostat on it, essential for not over heating seeds. I still use the Baggie method, I place them on the wet sand, the sand temperature remains at a constant 24c. I use this to germinate all of my seeds.

[doranakandawatta]

Hello,

I don't think that because of Toby being a IPS director and a Palmtalk sponsor, we shouldn't post about the issues we (many members) have with RPS seeds!

On the contrary, because of that (IPS director and Palmtalk advertiser), RPS should be careful and send fresh seeds to the clients or renounce to offer so many species.

I am sure RPS makes a huge business with IPS and Palmtalk members , much higher than the cost of Palmtalk sponsoring.

It's why Palmtalk RPS clients deserve getting good quality seeds.
If I told you the cost of unviable seeds I bought since 2 years, you would scream; I still hope but I see the difference with fresh seeds I collect. so half desperately I still order seeds...

What about last year B. condapanna batch?

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/41129-germinating-bentinckia-condapanna/

[FNQ Marcus]

I used to blame myself for the lack of germination I got from RPS seed. So I gave my last two orders to a local specialist palm nursery with the agreement that I get to have two of each species that germinates and that the nursery gets to keep and sell everything else.

Turns out that this has resulted in only a very slight improvement in germination, and I was probably wrong to blame myself.

[_Keith]

Do RPS seeds germinate any different than other seeds? I thought it was palm dependent, not supplier.

[FNQ Marcus]

Keith - I have never had 0% germination on a species I have collected myself.

[_Keith]

Keith - I have never had 0% germination on a species I have collected myself.

Not making any excuses for RPS, never ordered from them and don't know Toby other than interaction here on the board. But you hit on a point in that they don't normally collect them. They are seed brokers with sources who may or not be telling them the truth about freshness. With something like rare palms seeds across the globe coming from whatever sources, maybe 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand before they even get to RPS. Can't be an easy job, but a needed one. Inconsistencies are just a part of the process it would seem.

[FNQ Marcus]

I know it's starting to get a little off topic, but seed viability is always a tricky topic regardless of the supplier. I think Freshness is the biggest issue, and I'm not just talking about RPS or even just palm seeds for that matter.

I just wish seed traders would list their seeds with COLLECTION DATES, so people could make their own judgement.

At this point in time I am only purchasing seed from one supplier who states which month seeds were collected. (Sorry but these aren't palm seeds). And I'm less worried about the cost because I have a better idea of the viability.

[Toby]

Hi Everyone,

Many thanks for all the input, positive as well as negative. First of all, don't worry, I am used to a fair bit of criticism, that comes with the business. I don't get (or would want) preferential treatment here as a sponsor or as a director and certainly don't have any influence whatsoever on threads being deleted as suggested somewhere above.

Yes, it is probably correct in most cases that seeds you collected somewhere yourself and sown right away will produce better results than what we can supply. When collecting yourself is possible, I encourage anyone to do so. However, with a lot of rare species that is usually not possible, and many of our seeds have traveled a very long and complicated way to get to you.

No, freshness is certainly not the only major issue that decides over the success or failure of palm seeds. Many things influence the results. To mention just a few that come to mind: Ripeness at time of collection, cleaning process, drying process if applicable, packing, moisture content of packaging material, shipping conditions, weather, storage conditions, type of palm and specific behavior, reprocessing, repackaging and remailing conditions, and so forth. I could go into detail on any of these but assume you get the gist. Many of these conditions are out of our immediate control, even though we try hard to optimize them with our collectors and suppliers. To some extent, it is simply the nature of the beast. If you want to buy rare seeds at a reasonable price, you can not expect all of them to be successful, and it is mostly not because we are not trying hard enough. This is why the price of a seedling is a lot higher than that of a seed. Just ask some of the old-timers how difficult or impossible it used to be to access most really rare seeds. Today you have so many things easily and immediately available at your fingertips, conveniently delivered to your home within a few days or weeks.

Anyway, I am not complaining, just trying to make you aware that things are usually more complex than the seem.

Best, TOBY

[ErikSJI]

How about a harvested date Toby? That way your customers know what they are getting.

[Toby]

We will have that with the new shopping cart that is currently being built. However, this is what I was trying to get at above, that just a harvest date will tell you very little about the quality of a palm seed. Just as an example, many tropical rainforest Licuala store extremely well, even a year and above if kept slightly damp, while a super fresh Livistona can be completely useless on day one if it was dried too severely or harvested immature.

Best, TOBY