Coqui Frog - Friend or Foe?

[DoomsDave]

Don't the coquis have any natural enemies?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I’ll give this one more shot!

Axel,

The reason I made my comments about you missing the point and about finding some of your comments offensive is very simple, and this is what you keep missing: I live here and you don’t. I have experienced all this from the beginning. I know people who have intentionally introduced coqui frogs on their land, without respect for their neighbors. I know how bad it can get, noisewise. It’s clear from your comments that you don’t. I respect everyone’s opinion, including all our visitors from elsewhere, and they are most certainly entitled to their opinion, without being criticized for it. And so I am. Maybe you’re not aware of this, but every post you add gives the impression that you’re lecturing us who live here that the coquis are not as bad as they are claimed to be. Coming up with “evidence” about lower populations and less noise etc etc. We, who live here, already KNOW that there are vast differences between various areas, and those areas can be very very close together. We don’t need for someone who knows next to nothing about local conditions to all of a sudden become the expert and try to get the point across to those of us who live here. And this is how you come across and this is what I find offensive. You have your opinion. Fine. I have no problems with that. I have no intention of trying to influence you. And I have my opinion. Which is that they should not have been introduced here. But, as I clearly stated, I also accept that they are here, and it’s been a VERY long time since I actually tried to do something about them. I co-exist with them here, and will continue to do so. They don’t bother me anymore. Doesn’t mean I like them. I am just not interested in others trying to push their opinion on me and every single post you add gives this impression. Which is why I said “spare us your ignorance”. You don’t know what others have gone through here, and you will never know, or truly understand, so accept the simple fact that there are people who have different opinions and who may not be interested in being lectured.

And Andrew,

Yes, the coqui frog is just one of many introductions here in Hawaii. And actually, every single living being, be they plants or people or animals, have been “introduced” here and that includes ALL plants for the simple reason that these are volcanic islands that rised up from the ocean floor. When they were first created nothing COULD grow here since it was molten lava, thousands of degree hot. All the so called native plants also originated elsewhere, as did all the so called “Hawaiians” who also came from some place else. The difference between the coqui frogs and all our exotic palms is very simple. Palms don’t spread like wild fire. Palms don’t keep you awake at night with a loud noise. The overwhelming number of exotic introductions here in Hawaii are fairly benign, and palms certainly fall in that category. Coqui frogs don’t.

Bo-Göran

I have no interest in lecturing anyone, why are you lecturing me? I simply have an interest in generating a lot of discussion on the topic so I can learn about it, and that means being able to hold multiple perspectives on the issue. The only opinion I have formed is that if I had to deal with the frogs myself on a daily basis, I'd take the approach of embracing them fully and liking them, because hating them would turn them into a problem for me. I am fortunate in that I really like frogs anyway, and this frog's call to me is on par with our California tree frog, which I also cherish.

[LJG]

I know what I am getting Dean and Bo for Christmas.

[kahili]

lol Len-you have to find another thoughtful present for them-Hawaii already has cane toads. I remember once seeing a cane toad eat a 6" centipede, it took him over a half hour as the centipede wriggled around all over him, and even after he finished eating it, you could see it moving around inside the toad. It was both gross and mesmerizing at the same time. By the way, I had to laugh when I read what you wrote above. If you had substituted "local" for Hawaiian and "haole" for white, it would have been about right. I could see him saying it. Ever since the sons of missionaries started their land and water grabs on the Hawaiian islands, locals have resented haoles. Everyone who has lived there or does now knows what I am talking about. We are a minority there, but have major control

[Dypsisdean]

Dean, I am not looking into semantics. The guy was 300 pounds, liked my USC shirt and wanted to talk football. Regardless of what you think, you "hoale's" were coqui frogs to him.

Oh, and these frogs have a few people's panties in a bunch. I will save the day. I will sneak in a few cane toads next time. Problem solved. You all can thank me later.

As I said, a 300lb Samoan is no more "Hawaiian" than a 300lb Texan - both born in Honolulu. And in fact the white guy's family could have been here a lot longer. Again, it does not, nor should it have anything to do with your "whiteness."

And BTW - As Kahili said, cane toads have been here and established for many decades - long before the coquis arrived. I think you may have to re-think your solution.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

You need some good snakes there.

[Dypsisdean]

lol Len-you have to find another thoughtful present for them-Hawaii already has cane toads. I remember once seeing a cane toad eat a 6" centipede, it took him over a half hour as the centipede wriggled around all over him, and even after he finished eating it, you could see it moving around inside the toad. It was both gross and mesmerizing at the same time. By the way, I had to laugh when I read what you wrote above. If you had substituted "local" for Hawaiian and "haole" for white, it would have been about right. I could see him saying it. Ever since the sons of missionaries started their land and water grabs on the Hawaiian islands, locals have resented haoles. Everyone who has lived there or does now knows what I am talking about. We are a minority there, but have major control

Interesting thought Kahili - but I am glad I disagree. First, the Japanese also have a lot of influence over business and government here. They came and acquired land and power after the "white" missionaries arrived. Yet there is no backlash against them. And the second is in the form of a question - who is more "local," a third generation haole, or a first generation Samoan. Can a haole ever be a "local?" Is that Filipino who moved here from Manila now a local?

I have found that the locals react to an attitude, not a skin color. And there is definitely a haole/mainland attitude that I too find unpleasant. Not much different than how I used to react to a rude New York/East Coast attitude when experienced in my small laid back surf town in SoCal.

Oh - and I think Len may be shipping us some frog legs for Christmas dinner next year - not a bufo.

[pogobob]

Stir fried coqui anyone? Might be good, you neva know.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Why are you people talking about frogs when THERE IS A PLANE MISSING!!!??? AAAAGGGGHHHHH!

BTW, speaking of frog noises, when I was a kid we did not have sanitary sewers or effective storm drains. Every summer when the heavy rains came our backyard got flooded. When that happened it was like Spring Break for all the frogs and toads. What a racket! There were several kinds of frog noises, from the "grump grump" to the "motorboat" to the duck like quaking sound. It lasted a few days maybe, until the next heavy storm. You could not hear yourself think. But it was only for a relatively few days a year.

[LJG]

Dean, I am not looking into semantics. The guy was 300 pounds, liked my USC shirt and wanted to talk football. Regardless of what you think, you "hoale's" were coqui frogs to him.

Oh, and these frogs have a few people's panties in a bunch. I will save the day. I will sneak in a few cane toads next time. Problem solved. You all can thank me later.

As I said, a 300lb Samoan is no more "Hawaiian" than a 300lb white guy - both born in Honolulu. And in fact the white guy's family could have been here a lot longer. Again, it does not, nor should it have anything to do with your "whiteness."

And BTW - As Kahili said, cane toads have been here and established for many decades - long before the coquis arrived. I think you may have to re-think your solution.

Fine. Mongooses on the way.

[kahili]

Attitude is definitely really important and it's something that people that have never lived there really understand. No one who first moves there has that attitude-you can tell right away who they are. We were all that way-couldn't pronounce Hawaiian words, didn't understand the slowness or mellowness of the lifestyle and didn't/couldn't really know just how special it is there and how different it is from anywhere else on the mainland. In fact, I kind of wanted to say to Axel when he was listing stuff that he was evaluating in a move to Hawaii- "this isn't like moving to Florida". Not sure that I can explain it, and Axel-I don't mean that in a mean way, I could just tell that you had not lived in Hawaii and didn't really understand it there. Going back to attitude-I was just back on Maui for a few wks and everywhere that I went, locals were giving me kama'aina rates because they thought I lived there, and it was because of my attitude.

But there is no denying that haoles have had a very negative impact on Hawaiian culture/lifestyle through out their history. In fact we almost wiped out their population a few times, and that is not including what the missionaries did to their culture. I am pretty sure that missionaries introduced the kiawe tree so that Hawaiians would wear shoes rather than walk on the 2" thorns that fall so freely to the ground, not to mention trying to stop the hula dance which was so important in their culture. But the biggest was as I said before-the land grabs and even more importantly, the ownership of water by haoles. Maybe its more of an issue on Maui, but I know that the Japanese did not do that. They came as indentured slaves and were in no position to grab anything. They were industrious for sure, and along with the Chinese that were brought in for the sugarcane went into business and government (Japanese). But they never had the standing of power that whites had/have.

And then you have the white tourists that come there-which is fine, its how Hawaii makes most of their money-but they do stick out in not so great ways sometimes (trying to be tactful here), whereas Japanese tourists are so quiet and unobtrusive for the most part. I could say more-but I think that you get what I am trying to say. As well, I have had many a conversation with locals about haoles. But where I lived and hung out, there were many more locals than haoles, so maybe I heard more about it, I don't know. And yes-haoles that were born and raised there are locals. Its not that large a percentage though

[kahili]

lol Geesh Len-mongoose already there. Maybe llamas or something. Definitely not snakes though

[Cindy Adair]

http://nbclatino.com/2013/04/10/puerto-ricos-beloved-coqui-frog-is-disappearing/

Apparently at least some spp. of coquis are in trouble in Puerto Rico according to this 2013 article.

I'm sure Hawaii would be happy to replenish PR's supply if requested..... We do have the black racer snakes and many lizard and frog eating birds on our farm so perhaps that keeps the frog population from exploding and reaching the jet noise level.

I truly thought these critters ate mosquitoes, but apparently that's not really the case. We don't have many mosquitoes at all on our farm (many more in Virginia Beach in the summer) and I was giving credit to the frogs!

[LJG]

I know Teri. I was just joking.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Attitude is definitely really important and it's something that people that have never lived there really understand. No one who first moves there has that attitude-you can tell right away who they are. We were all that way-couldn't pronounce Hawaiian words, didn't understand the slowness or mellowness of the lifestyle and didn't/couldn't really know just how special it is there and how different it is from anywhere else on the mainland. In fact, I kind of wanted to say to Axel when he was listing stuff that he was evaluating in a move to Hawaii- "this isn't like moving to Florida". Not sure that I can explain it, and Axel-I don't mean that in a mean way, I could just tell that you had not lived in Hawaii and didn't really understand it there. Going back to attitude-I was just back on Maui for a few wks and everywhere that I went, locals were giving me kama'aina rates because they thought I lived there, and it was because of my attitude.

But there is no denying that haoles have had a very negative impact on Hawaiian culture/lifestyle through out their history. In fact we almost wiped out their population a few times, and that is not including what the missionaries did to their culture. I am pretty sure that missionaries introduced the kiawe tree so that Hawaiians would wear shoes rather than walk on the 2" thorns that fall so freely to the ground, not to mention trying to stop the hula dance which was so important in their culture. But the biggest was as I said before-the land grabs and even more importantly, the ownership of water by haoles. Maybe its more of an issue on Maui, but I know that the Japanese did not do that. They came as indentured slaves and were in no position to grab anything. They were industrious for sure, and along with the Chinese that were brought in for the sugarcane went into business and government (Japanese). But they never had the standing of power that whites had/have.

And then you have the white tourists that come there-which is fine, its how Hawaii makes most of their money-but they do stick out in not so great ways sometimes (trying to be tactful here), whereas Japanese tourists are so quiet and unobtrusive for the most part. I could say more-but I think that you get what I am trying to say. As well, I have had many a conversation with locals about haoles. But where I lived and hung out, there were many more locals than haoles, so maybe I heard more about it, I don't know. And yes-haoles that were born and raised there are locals. Its not that large a percentage though

The Japanese tourists could actually blend in, especially in Hilo, if only they didn't travel in those enormous tour buses.

You make blanket statements about locals versus mainlanders, that sounds to me like a lot of stereotyping. I am not buying into that, it doesn't match what I've seen here. There are plenty of mainlanders, Hawaiian natives, Chinese, Japanese etc... that all embody the aloha spirit and there are plenty of mean ones with bad attitudes on all sides of the fence. People are people wherever you go. You can find the aloha spirit all over California if you look in the right places. And beware if you look in the wrong places in Hawaii.

The beautiful thing when you travel with a two year old is that you get to go to places like parks and playgrounds where you inevitably blend with all the local residents as opposed to tourists. I've seen a completely different side of the islands that way. We were never once singled out as tourists there. In fact, I've never been charged more here because I am a "tourist". I've only had that happen to me in Thailand.

We got to pay the same rates for the playgrounds that the locals do, i.e. free.

[Rory]

I don't know about the Coqui frog, but if you want to complain about an annoying invasive, try Egyptian Geese. They're beautiful animals, but in the mornings and evenings I've never heard a more obnoxious sound.

[kahili]

Axel-it's a subtle thing that I am talking about-it's not overt-esp to a tourist, and it's not directly aimed at a tourist. And now I am going to be the third person to say that you can't visit a place-esp such as Hawaii for what ? A week-2 wks? and then think that you know what you are talking about enough to correct me/Dean/Bo. You do sound arrogant, laughable so. It doesn't matter to me whether you "buy into it " or not. It is what it is. I have worked in the tourist trade in Hawaii and I could tell you many stories of tourists being made fun of behind their backs. I never said that tourists are singled out-everyone wants to keep their jobs. I never said anything about tourists getting charged more-in fact, forget it-I give up. I don't think you understood anything that I wrote

[Dypsisdean]

And yes-haoles that were born and raised there are locals.

Thanks for not dodging the question. I just wanted to highlight that this perceived anti-white thing is not that simple. IMO - It is more of an anti-outsider thing that happens everywhere. But again, it is the "outsider's" attitude. In fact, here in Kona high schools the racial tension is no longer between locals and haoles (and yes, racial division does still exist in the schools, as it does in most schools everywhere) - the main conflicts are between the locals and Micronesians. But it is because they are the new outsiders with the bad attitude, and nothing to do with skin color.

And as to Axel observations - and I feel I can say this without him taking offense because we spent cordial time together here recently, and I consider him a friend - I would be curious as to how he would respond to someone who visited the Santa Cruz foothills from Hawaii for a week or two. And then this guy started forming opinions about the ecology, climate, and lifestyle of Santa Cruz that conflicted with his years of personal experience.

Edit: Kahili --- Looks like we were on the same wavelength at the same time.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

And yes-haoles that were born and raised there are locals.

Thanks for not dodging the question. I just wanted to highlight that this perceived anti-white thing is not that simple. IMO - It is more of an anti-outsider thing that happens everywhere. But again, it is the "outsider's" attitude. In fact, here in Kona high schools the racial tension is no longer between locals and haoles (and yes, racial division does still exist in the schools, as it does in most schools everywhere) - the main conflicts are between the locals and Micronesians. But it is because they are the new outsiders with the bad attitude, and nothing to do with skin color.

And as to Axel observations - and I feel I can say this without him taking offense because we spent cordial time together here recently, and I consider him a friend - I would be curious as to how he would respond to someone who visited the Santa Cruz foothills from Hawaii for a week or two. And then this guy started forming opinions about the ecology, climate, and lifestyle of Santa Cruz that conflicted with his years of personal experience.

Edit: Kahili --- Looks like we were on the same wavelength at the same time.

I don't take offense to anything said on PalmTalk, it's foolish to do so. I find it curious that you guys call me arrogant. I don't form my opinion based on a week in the island, I am not that stupid. I form my opinion from talking to native locals who by the way do not share your perspective at all. Some of them are friends I've had for years. (This is not my first trip to the islands.) The islands aren't that small, even here people can live next to each other and live in completely different universes. What is truth for one local isn't the same as what another local perceives as truth. And as a visitor hearing the opinions of various people, I get to make my own judgement call with whom I seem to be most compatible. That doesn't make me wrong or arrogant. If my perspective represented yours, you wouldn't call me arrogant.

[Dypsisdean]

Axel,

For the sake of accuracy, and since you quoted me above, I have not called you anything - much less arrogant.

And you're point is well taken. However, to carry my analogy about the hypothetical visitor to the Santa Cruz foothills one step further - if I had said this person had visited California on several occasions, and also had several long time friends who were "Californians" - in your eyes would that make him any more credible in his opinions of life in the Santa Cruz foothills, especially if they conflicted with your personal experiences?

And as to what "native locals" have to say about the coqui. I haven't heard any of them on any of the other islands who are advocating the importation of the coqui because of it's desirability. In fact it is just the opposite. Or ask any realtor on the Big Island when was the last time they were asked by a client ("native locals" included) to show them primarily the properties where the coqui was well established.

To no longer be able to hear at night the sweet chirp of the greenhouse frog in the late evening and early morning, the occasional croak of the cane toad, the screech of the owls, the crickets, katydids, and geckos, the gentle breeze in the trees - along with the glorious birdsong at first light - would be a real loss as far as I am concerned.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Axel,

For the sake of accuracy, and since you quoted me above, I have not called you anything - much less arrogant.

But you're point is well taken. However, to carry my analogy about the hypothetical visitor to the Santa Cruz foothills one step further - if I had said this person had visited California on several occasions, and also had several long time friends who were "Californians" - in your eyes would that make him any more credible in his opinions of life in the Santa Cruz foothills, especially if they conflicted with your experiences?

And as to what "native locals" have to say about the coqui. I haven't heard any of them on any of the other islands who are advocating the importation of the coqui because of it's desirability. In fact it is just the opposite. Or ask any realtor on the Big Island when was the last time they were asked by a client ("native locals" included) to show them primarily the properties where the coqui was well established.

To no longer be able to hear at night the sweet chirp of the greenhouse frog in the evening and morning, the occasional croak of the cane toad, the screech of the owls, the crickets, katydids, and geckos - along with the glorious birdsong as the sun comes up - would be a real loss as far as I am concerned.

I run into plenty of visitors who hold opinions that are not consistent with mine but are consistent with other locals. Some visitors even know more than I do because I just live there and don't do as much research as they might have done. In fact, visitors often get me to think about issues I hadn't considered before or wasn't aware of. That's the nice thing about a fresh pair of eyes, you get a new perspective from an outsider.

BTW, greenhouse frogs are also an invasive species. The coqui stop chirping after about 2AM, so at least you will still get to hear your beloved roosters and Morning bird songs. I doubt the coqui will ever be as prolific in Kona as it is on the Hilo side, it's not wet enough. But you have a pretty dense jungle, so it's probably gonna be pretty loud once you get them.

And just for the record, I have not talked to anyone who advocates bringing in the coqui or to seek them out by purchasing coqui infested property. But I bet you some agents have gotten that request because the coqui is much beloved by the tourists, and many tourists become residents. Most of the folks who dread the coqui are in areas where the coqui is just arriving, so Kona and other islands. I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting them. Once again, personally, I like the rainforest sound of the coqui, so I don't view them as a problem, that's all.

[Mandrew968]

I know Teri. I was just joking.

How could you come up with such a random animal, unless you knew they were already naturalized? I knew what you were saying and also knew mongooses live in the 50th state. When I was a kid, I used to ride a Mongoose...

[Palmdude]

Axel great post! I thought immediately of Hawaii when I read the posts headline and thought uh oh this should be a hot topic. I'm aware of how much they drive people nutty in Hawaii and understand their frustration. I've experienced the coqui in Puerto Rico in small concentrations and love the noise they make but I can imagine that in large concentrations like in Hawaii they could be a bit much. Also if you were used to peace and quiet before they arrived it would be like having an inconsiderate neighbor move in who parties all night every night cranking loud tunes until the sun comes up. Coming from a Florida perspective I'm not too fond of invasive things that are introduced into our environment, we have so many here, plants, animals, insects, you name it. A lot of these things are bad for outr natural Eco system, if you can even call it that anymore, and crowd out or devour our native species of plants and animals. I also get what your saying about the fact that they're here to stay so deal with it. What can we do? Change is a constant but it is often not that easy or pleasant to deal with anyone want to go hunt some Pythons in the Everglades with me or maybe some monitor lizards in Cape Coral??????

[Palmdude]

Not even our top predators are safe anymore! This python ate a 6'4" alligator and then exploded! Something else just occurred to me....... I'm 6'4"!!!!!! I'm thinking that Python hunt in the Everglades is definitely called off! Lol

Edited March 20, 2014 by Palmdude

[Funkthulhu]

Anybody who is interested in the delicate balance of Island Evolution and Extinction would do well to read David Quammen's book The Song of the Dodo.

From an evolutionary biologist's point of view, humans in general and every species that tagged along for the ride are all considered non-native or invasive species with respect to Island diversity.

From my readings of the Hawaiian Islands and the number of species lost already, even a cute tiny frog could destroy an ecosystem.

[grant b.]

yahoo just posted an article on the coqui today. perspectives from some Puerto Ricans...

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/dotworld-abc-news/puerto-rico-chorus-frogs-211748511.html?vp=1

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Grant,

Your video says that the male coqui is basically looking for Mrs. Coqui.

That reminds me of this.

or this

[JakeK]

Sounds like their chirping can become quite annoying. Here in this area we get broods of cicadas every 17 years. Since several different broods overlap they emerge by the billions with more than 1 million per acre, more frequently than every 17 years. Their swarms can achieve decibel ratings over 140 and 90-100 is not uncommon. They get louder and louder as the day gets hotter. Fortunately, it's only for about a month, but we also have to contend with the native tree frog that kahili posted about, so when it is a cicada year it is a double whammy.

[WestCoastGal]

National Geographic Wild has a series on right now called "Wild Hawaii". The episode I happened to tune into is entitled "Land of Fire". They were covering the different birds and fish and now have moved onto, yep, croqui. Nat Geo says there are some 20,000 per acre across the Big Island across 60,000 acres all told. Only the males sing. They have no tadpole stage and reproduce without water. Incubation is just over 2 weeks. 75 eggs every 2-1/2 weeks are possible, so over a lifetime over 10,000 eggs per frog. Segment on the frogs starts at 42 minutes into the episode. Yikes. When we were on the Big Island and stayed in Volcano back in the early 90s the nights were quiet and it was so restful. I feel for you guys especially on the wetter Hilo side (moist atmosphere is what they thrive in). It's kind of like having the noise of a train whistle at 80dbls running all night long to your ears.

The croqui is worthy of eliminating if possible due to its extremely fast reproduction rate and so far no native preditors, although for frogs they are kind of cute. Maybe some bacterial or viral disease on Hawaii will get them that isn't native to Puerto Rico where Nat Geo said it originated from. Nice if they ate something that didn't agree with them.

Honestly I value the quiet and this would deter me, not from visiting but from wanting to relocate there. Feel for all of you living with them.

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Misread the topic... Thought it said "Coquis - Fried or Foe?"

[DoomsDave]

Doesn't anything eat them?

[bgl]

Probably yes, but the bottom line is that they have no natural enemies here since they were introduced. But birds and mongoose probably munch on them, given the opportunity. But they're tough to find and tough to catch, probably even for birds and mongoose.

[Kim]

Maybe Hawaii could export them as a new source of protein. Coqui sushi, anyone?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Maybe Hawaii could export them as a new source of protein. Coqui sushi, anyone?

The French could be interested.

[stevethegator]

Just watched an episode of "Wild Hawaii" on NatGeo and they had a segment on the coqui. Clearly they are invasive but do they cause any specific problems for native wildlife?

My parents house in South Florida is overrun with Cuban treefrogs, which are huge and eat all of our native frogs and anything else they can grab. During the rainy season they croak all night and you can even hear them through earplugs! So annoying, and I imagine the coquis are even worse.

[Funkthulhu]

Maybe Hawaii could export them as a new source of protein. Coqui sushi, anyone?

The French could be interested.

www.youtube.com/embed/Dy6uLfermPU

[www.dadluvsu.com]

Stevethegator... Our treefrogs to Hawai's coqui is like comparing an electric mobility cart to a Harley.

[stevethegator]

Haha I believe it! And the Cuban treefrogs are already annoying enough for me!

[Trópico]

Fourth option:

- I miss them.

The attached soundtrack's song is mainly E. coqui. It sounds much more varied and soothing when you have many of the other species of coqui, like for example E. antillensis, which adds some interesting notes.