Split California into 6 States?

[sur4z]

Interesting article in todays paper...would this work?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/02/21/california-six-states-plan-tim-draper/5673283/

[DoomsDave]

Sounds looney to me.

The problems we have won't be solved by taking our mighty kingdom with an unbalanced budget and cutting it up into 6 squabbling principalities with unbalanced budgets and quarrels with neighbors over sharing resources that belonged to all.

On the other hand, it's loony enough that some might vote for it.

[sonoranfans]

Looks like it would create a lot more common ground within each principality. Having lived in both the bay area and socal, its understandable why the state government is so dysfunctional, there is almost nothing they agree on. There is no more diverse state politically in the US, it has perhaps the most extreme regional politics of any state. Its worse than making Massachusetts and Wyoming part of the same state...

[Hammer]

Sounds looney to me.

The problems we have won't be solved by taking our mighty kingdom with an unbalanced budget and cutting it up into 6 squabbling principalities with unbalanced budgets and quarrels with neighbors over sharing resources that belonged to all.

On the other hand, it's loony enough that some might vote for it.

Consider me a loon DD!

[paulgila]

why should we trust that the people proposing this have everyones best interests in mind? its more likely that they see a major benefit to themselves & are just trying to convince everyone else

that its for their benefit,as well.

I don't buy it.

[Hammer]

why should we trust that the people proposing this have everyones best interests in mind? its more likely that they see a major benefit to themselves & are just trying to convince everyone else

that its for their benefit,as well.

I don't buy it.

Couldn't the reverse be said? Who benefits by embracing the status quo?

[paulgila]

yes,it could be said. I don't really think that change just for the sake of it is such a brilliant idea,however.

[DoomsDave]

This sounds like a political plot. There's a lot Californians agree on, to the chagrin of those who disagree. The effect will be to isolate the wealthy parts of California from the poorer parts. Be careful what you wish for.

And, it may be a coincidence, but I note that Tim Draper's Wikipedia page is presently embroiled in a "copyright" claim, making it impossible to access, and possibly learn more about him, and his real (ulterior) motives from at least a nominally unbiased source. (His website doesn't count.)

As for smaller states, well, why don't we split up Hawaii into a state for each island? States can be too small, too. Let's split up Delaware into a state of each of its three counties.

[DoomsDave]

If we do split Cali up into six, i think the names Draper proposed are lame. I propose alternatives.

• South California: San Diego and Orange counties PSSC
• West California: includes Los Angeles and Santa Barbara New Megalopolis
• Central California: includes Bakersfield, Fresno and Stockton Fruits and Nuts
• Silicon Valley: includes San Francisco and San Jose Old Megalopolis
• North California: Sacramento area (also includes Napa Valley) Wine and Cheese
• Jefferson: Redding and Eureka areas Weed and Willie

[DoomsDave]

Looks like it would create a lot more common ground within each principality. Having lived in both the bay area and socal, its understandable why the state government is so dysfunctional, there is almost nothing they agree on. There is no more diverse state politically in the US, it has perhaps the most extreme regional politics of any state. Its worse than making Massachusetts and Wyoming part of the same state...

How about some examples? And, can't you say the same of Florida? Or New York? Or even Texas?

[JungleGina]

Many Hawaiians don't want to even be a state; they want sovereignty.

[sur4z]

Many Hawaiians don't want to even be a state; they want sovereignty.

So do the Key Westians...The Conch Republic

[PalmatierMeg]

Let me see.....6 states......6 governments..... 6x the politicians. Liberty & justice for All. Yeah, that'll work.

I've heard people say FL should be divided into 3 states (4 if you count Conch Republic): North, Central, South.

[sonoranfans]

Looks like it would create a lot more common ground within each principality. Having lived in both the bay area and socal, its understandable why the state government is so dysfunctional, there is almost nothing they agree on. There is no more diverse state politically in the US, it has perhaps the most extreme regional politics of any state. Its worse than making Massachusetts and Wyoming part of the same state...

How about some examples? And, can't you say the same of Florida? Or New York? Or even Texas?

San Francisco vs Orange county is a good example, as liberal and as conservative as it gets, respectively. You won't find that contrast in florida, and yes I have lived there too. Or how about LA are vs interior farm country? California has a massive pension liability problem, hard to imagine it getting worse by splitting it up. Of all states only Illinois compares in fiscal dysfunction, and IL is likely the most corrupt state, with the governor selling senate seats.... Florida doesn't have such acrimony in their government that they cant agree to pay their bills... And this isn't a liberal problem or a conservative problem as liberal states like Mass and VT pay their bills as do more conservative states like Wyoming, Texas. IMO, this is about political dysfunction masking a robbing of the state treasury. California is like a smaller version of Washington DC, everybody of political power and influence with their hands in the till while cities go bankrupt all over the state...

[Stevetoad]

Looks like it would create a lot more common ground within each principality. Having lived in both the bay area and socal, its understandable why the state government is so dysfunctional, there is almost nothing they agree on. There is no more diverse state politically in the US, it has perhaps the most extreme regional politics of any state. Its worse than making Massachusetts and Wyoming part of the same state...

How about some examples? And, can't you say the same of Florida? Or New York? Or even Texas?

San Francisco vs Orange county is a good example, as liberal and as conservative as it gets, respectively. You won't find that contrast in florida, and yes I have lived there too. Or how about LA are vs interior farm country? California has a massive pension liability problem, hard to imagine it getting worse by splitting it up. Of all states only Illinois compares in fiscal dysfunction, and IL is likely the most corrupt state, with the governor selling senate seats.... Florida doesn't have such acrimony in their government that they cant agree to pay their bills... And this isn't a liberal problem or a conservative problem as liberal states like Mass and VT pay their bills as do more conservative states like Wyoming, Texas. IMO, this is about political dysfunction masking a robbing of the state treasury. California is like a smaller version of Washington DC, everybody of political power and influence with their hands in the till while cities go bankrupt all over the state...

Insert thumbs up icon here------>______

(Can't seem to find it on my iPad)

[DoomsDave]

So, I don't see how breaking the state up will improve its finances. No one has proposed anything specific. I don't think anyone can.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Interesting article in todays paper...would this work?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/02/21/california-six-states-plan-tim-draper/5673283/

Some of the "nouveau riche" of Silicon Valley can be extremely conceited. This is a move really to create a separate State for Silicon Valley, this is total nonsense. I really wonder where he's gonna find people to sign to endorse his follies?

[paulgila]

zzzzzzzzzzz.

[DoomsDave]

You guys, gals, and whoevva, gimme somma dat I mean, Cali as 6 states?

I've hear babble, not reason, give me reason and Michael Bloomberg data

(Oh no, more partisanship . . . )

[DoomsDave]

This deserves an evil giggle

Seriously

[_Keith]

Not any real logic around any state boundary. Usually a natural boundary, lines of latitude or longitude, or some other easy dividing line. Just a way of dividing things up making sure too much power doesn't reside in one place. This brings up an interesting side effect of the dividing of California into 6 states. At that point the geographic area now known as California would no longer have 2 senators in Washington, it would then have 12 Senators in Washington. Pretty nice jump in power for sure.

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

To me theres almost a cultural difference between Southern CA , Central CA and Northern CA.

I would divide the state into 3 parts.

Socal would be everything south of Bakersfield.

Central Ca would include everything From Just South of Sacramento to The Grapevine... including the Bayarea and SF.

Northern CA would be from Sacramento North to the Oregon Border.

There would be plenty of population in these 3 states to make a go of it.

[Hammer]

zzzzzzzzzzz.

By far and away the most witty and well thought out reply on this thread. Compelling logic and linguistically executed with the skill of a surgeon.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

In the news recently have been movements to split Maryland into two states, as well as Colorado. Just about every state, going back to the Declaration of Independence, had some sort of "split" issue. Because of representation, it is always negotiated with some split elsewhere to balance the parties out in Washington. For instance, if California split, giving it 12 senators instead of two, they might allow a Maryland or Colorado split as well, to make it even between liberals and conservatives, or in the past, slave state or free state.

It is kind of like the Balkanization of Europe. There are a million little ethnic pockets there that at one time or another, were independent states. I don't know if that is a good thing to split too many times.

[paulgila]

adam I am a man of few words & that is one of them

[bgl]

More government and more bureaucracy...well hey, what could possibly go wrong there?

[Funkthulhu]

Not any real logic around any state boundary. Usually a natural boundary, lines of latitude or longitude, or some other easy dividing line. Just a way of dividing things up making sure too much power doesn't reside in one place. This brings up an interesting side effect of the dividing of California into 6 states. At that point the geographic area now known as California would no longer have 2 senators in Washington, it would then have 12 Senators in Washington. Pretty nice jump in power for sure.

I will fully support any division of California, so long as they use the Shortest-Splitline algorithm to divide the state and to subdivide the house representative constituencies. And while we're doing that, lets do the same with every other state's House seats so we don't have so much gerrymandering any more. (the only state where it gets tricky is Colorado because of the concentration of population along the front-range)

http://youtu.be/kUS9uvYyn3A

http://www.rangevoting.org/SplitLR.html

Edited February 25, 2014 by Funkthulhu

[DoomsDave]

Not any real logic around any state boundary. Usually a natural boundary, lines of latitude or longitude, or some other easy dividing line. Just a way of dividing things up making sure too much power doesn't reside in one place. This brings up an interesting side effect of the dividing of California into 6 states. At that point the geographic area now known as California would no longer have 2 senators in Washington, it would then have 12 Senators in Washington. Pretty nice jump in power for sure.

I will fully support any division of California, so long as they use the Shortest-Splitline algorithm to divide the state and to subdivide the house representative constituencies. And while we're doing that, lets do the same with every other state's House seats so we don't have so much gerrymandering any more. (the only state where it gets tricky is Colorado because of the concentration of population along the front-range)

http://youtu.be/kUS9uvYyn3A

http://www.rangevoting.org/SplitLR.html

Interestingly, California (and Texas?) has created a citizen panel to redistrict various seats, instead of by politicians as formerly. This is upsetting some serious applecarts.

[sonoranfans]

Could California be worse off possibly than a 170B pension(estimated by a democrat) shortfall? I don't think it can get worse by dividing up the state a bit. The story of CalPERS, the public employees retirement system, is an astonishing litany of corrupt, wasteful, and irresponsible behavior that will cost California for decades. When you allow people to vote themselves pension increases which at the height allowed 90% pension with future cost of living adjustments retiring at 55 years old, you have a seriously broken government.

http://www.city-journal.org/2013/23_1_calpers.html

"CalPERS has the exclusive power to determine the size of state and local governments’ contributions into the fund. As its investments tanked, it quickly boosted those contributions to compensate. By mid-decade, local officials were frantically telling the California press that the contributions were squeezing out other forms of spending. Glendale, a Los Angeles suburb, watched its annual pension bill rocket from $1.3 million in 2003 to $13.7 million in 2007—nearly a tenfold increase. San Jose’s tab almost doubled, from $73 million in 2001 to $122 million in 2007, and then rose even faster over the next three years, hitting a jaw-dropping $245 million in 2010. San Bernardino’s annual pension obligations rose from $5 million in 2000 to about $26 million last year. The state budget took a massive hit, too, its pension costs lurching from $611 million in 2001 to $3.5 billion in 2010."

And this is likely why some cities and regions want out, they have zero control of the future pension costs...

My favorite, aside the city managers and their ridiculous pensions, is the top paid BART rail line technician who made 160k annually for his 40 hr week plus another 135k for OT, totaling 295k annual income. And using the pension formula, this person is available for 100-130k a year pension(based on the 160k) at 60-65 years old. This pension exceeds the pension of the vice president of the united states pension, for a rail line technician.

[DoomsDave]

Mr. Draper's Wikipedia page is back up again.

Not that it matters much.

[_Keith]

'Six Californias' plan may make 2016 ballot

And it keep moving.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/07/15/six-californias-tim-draper/12661161/?csp=fbfanpage

[DoomsDave]

:floor: :floor: :floor: :floor:

[Hammer]

Yes please!

[Funkthulhu]

If we're going to jump to 55, can we also throw in Puerto Rico and the south Pacific islands? (make it 57)

Also, let's annex Cuba.

[Hammer]

If we're going to jump to 55, can we also throw in Puerto Rico and the south Pacific islands? (make it 57)

Also, let's annex Cuba.

Can't force Puerto Rico if they keep voting no.

[DoomsDave]

If we're going to jump to 55, can we also throw in Puerto Rico and the south Pacific islands? (make it 57)

Also, let's annex Cuba.

Can't force Puerto Rico if they keep voting no.

Why stop with Cuba?

How about Crimea? Nice to have a little outpost on the Black Sea.

[DoomsDave]

Jokes aside, a way needs to be found to get around prop 13, and still have everyone on board. Mr. Brown, like him or not, recognizes that, too.

Every survey he did since taking office shows the challenge he (and his successor) faces: (a) everyone wants the services the state now provides; and ( no one wants to pay more for them. California depends unusually heavily on its income tax.

Surveys worded differently showed that if forced to dump some things and keep others, education is on the top of the list to keep. Courts are near the bottom.

One possibility, maybe, would be to make it harder to get "propositions" on the ballot by increasing the number of signatures required. As it stands, everyone able to get 50,000 signatures can get a prop on the ballot. 50K is a drop in the bucket here, out of a population gaining on 38 million. That said, a wave of hysteria can overcome a higher hurdle easily. On the other hand, if a proposition you hate gets on the ballot, you can get another 50,000 signatures and have another -- confusing -- alternative on the same ballot with the net result being none wins.

I can't imagine the poor counties up north wanting to divorce themselves from the richer ones down south which, at least in theory, provide them subsidies.

[Walter John]

Hmm, actually this is quite interesting. I live in the 2nd biggest state of Australia, namely Queensland. Not much of a population compared to California. Our divisons of Government are necessary owing more to the size of the place, (total size = 715,309 sq miles) not so much the population, although that is of course taken into account. We have 73 separate city and town councils in place for that management.

California, with a total size = 163,696 sq miles, is divided into 58 counties already, that seems a lot for a small chunk of real estate (compared to Qld). The state has 482 incorporated cities and towns; of which 460 are cities and 22 are towns. And they want it split further ? I'd be going the other way and joining up some of these regulatory organisations, I was over there recently and my pal Larry was trying to explain about the different Fire Brigades and Police and Health services oh boy, I got a headache thinking about it. They would save a zillion by combining things, one for all, all for one (and every man for himself). Unless the idea behind dividing further includes the co-joining of services and authorities.

Don't shoot me, I'm only the Ptychosperma player.

[DoomsDave]

Hmm, actually this is quite interesting. I live in the 2nd biggest state of Australia, namely Queensland. Not much of a population compared to California. Our divisons of Government are necessary owing more to the size of the place, (total size = 715,309 sq miles) not so much the population, although that is of course taken into account. We have 73 separate city and town councils in place for that management.

California, with a total size = 163,696 sq miles, is divided into 58 counties already, that seems a lot for a small chunk of real estate (compared to Qld). The state has 482 incorporated cities and towns; of which 460 are cities and 22 are towns. And they want it split further ? I'd be going the other way and joining up some of these regulatory organisations, I was over there recently and my pal Larry was trying to explain about the different Fire Brigades and Police and Health services oh boy, I got a headache thinking about it. They would save a zillion by combining things, one for all, all for one (and every man for himself). Unless the idea behind dividing further includes the co-joining of services and authorities.

Don't shoot me, I'm only the Ptychosperma player.

California is far and away the single most populous state in the U.S. Something like 38 million, hard to say. The last few years have been tough. You guys have lots and lots of space, though I note a few crowded areas like Sydney . . .

[Sabal Steve]

Looks like it would create a lot more common ground within each principality. Having lived in both the bay area and socal, its understandable why the state government is so dysfunctional, there is almost nothing they agree on. There is no more diverse state politically in the US, it has perhaps the most extreme regional politics of any state. Its worse than making Massachusetts and Wyoming part of the same state...

How about some examples? And, can't you say the same of Florida? Or New York? Or even Texas?

San Francisco vs Orange county is a good example, as liberal and as conservative as it gets, respectively. You won't find that contrast in florida, and yes I have lived there too. Or how about LA are vs interior farm country? California has a massive pension liability problem, hard to imagine it getting worse by splitting it up. Of all states only Illinois compares in fiscal dysfunction, and IL is likely the most corrupt state, with the governor selling senate seats.... Florida doesn't have such acrimony in their government that they cant agree to pay their bills... And this isn't a liberal problem or a conservative problem as liberal states like Mass and VT pay their bills as do more conservative states like Wyoming, Texas. IMO, this is about political dysfunction masking a robbing of the state treasury. California is like a smaller version of Washington DC, everybody of political power and influence with their hands in the till while cities go bankrupt all over the state...

I used to live in Illinois. What becomes national news is only the tip of the iceberg. Previous to the current governer of Illinois, 4 of the last 7 went to prison. It's the gold standard of political corruption.