Washy or Butia...which is more cold tolerant?

[jfrye01@live.com]

Hello all:) I've been doing a ton of research the past couple of days, but could not find a definite answer...from experience or just knowledge, does anyone happen to know which will handle a lower temperature? I'm in zone 6, and this winter, we have seen temperatures down to -10F a couple times (this is very very rare for southern Kansas, but still, it can and does happen every few years) so obviously either would need heavy protection, but which is more likely to survive when the palm is too tall to place a box over in winter? I'm making a road trip to Dallas (~4.5 hour drive ) in a couple days to visit a friend, and I am planning on picking up one of either, possibly both...so any advice would be great! Thanks!

[Zeeth]

Butia is more cold tolerant in my experience. I lived in Columbia, South Carolina for a year and there were 3 palms planted there: Trachycarpus, Sabal palmetto and Butia capitata. You didn't see any Washingtonia until you drove to the coastal cities like Charleston. Also, I was in Savannah GA at the end of January taking the MCAT and I saw plenty of both Butia and Washingtonia, but all the Washingtonia had been damaged by the recent cold (low of 18 F), whereas the Butia didn't have any damage that I noticed. Either way you're pushing it in your climate, so the added bonus is that Butia grow so slowly that you could protect it indefinitely if you do something like palmtalk user wxman does.

[jfrye01@live.com]

Thanks for the reply! Maybe I'll try a Sabal instead:) I have a couple sabal minor and a Trachy, which will all be planted this spring, however, I want palms that people will notice when they come to the house:P Crazy, I know:)

[smithgn]

I'd say Butia for sure. I live around the Columbia area and the Washingtonias are borderline/somewhat hardy here, but Butias are abundant and pretty darn cold hardy. We had lows in the early teens and I have a 3 foot tall Butia which came away nearly unscathed. Of course there are dozens of Butias in my neighborhood (all larger than mine), and they look fine also- just a tad browning at the tips.

Zeeth, I don't know if you remember highway 378 through the Columbia area, but there's actually a lone Washingtonia that's ~30 feet tall in West Columbia. There's also a house in downtown Columbia near Williams-Brice stadium that has two 10 foot-15 foot Washingtonias in their front yard. But you're right, it's mainly Sabals, Butias and Trachycarpus' here.

[Xerarch]

In desert conditions, Washingtonia filifera is darn near invincible. Notice, both people that responded to your post live in the wet, humid, east where Butia is clearly hardier. In the arid west it's a different story entirely, Butia is still hardy to cold, but W. filifera is tougher, it grows faster, rebounds faster, likes the soil better, and can take unbelievably low temps. I saw some videos of heavy damage in Las Cruces New Mexico from a few years ago, I think they recorded temps of like -5 F, washies completely defoliated but recovered. In the right climate those things are tanks. So I guess the real question is do your local conditions favor Washingtonia or Butia?

[jfrye01@live.com]

That's the bad thing about Kansas, some years, it's incredibly wet, and some years, like the year before last, it was dry...no rain for two months. For the most part, it is somewhere in between. NWS shows we get around 33 inches of rain per year...so I'm not really sure what would do best here, we're probably somewhere in between...

[WestCoastGal]

If you go The Butia route, there are different varieties to consider. And I believe the blue/gray will be more cold hardy than the green.

[Alicehunter2000]

Butia will be easier to protect and it is pinnate to boot. In wetter climes, Butia all the way. Don't know about some others like Nannorhops richina or Trithrinax campestris. You could always do some palms indoors, like Chameodorias. Phil has a good article on growing palms indoors.

http://www.junglemusic.net/palmadvice/palms-houseplants1.htm

[jfrye01@live.com]

Thanks for the link! I do plan on growing some small palms and other tropicals indoors, they're always beautiful to look at! And I do like the look of the Butia. I think its gonna be pretty great to have trees in the yard that visitors won't expect to see:) Also, the challenge of keeping them alive is gonna be a lot of fun and very rewarding!

[Walter John]

Put it this way, in my experience of observations in cold areas inland from me, the Butia stills looks very good in cold whilst Washingtonia looks ratty.

[DoomsDave]

Buteas are certainly hardy, but Washie filiferas also are.

They grow in Southern Utah and parts of New Mexico. They want to be on the dry side. Too wet and they'll rot. if you're in a cold but dry place, might as well try some if you can lay hands on purebred "fillie" seeds.

That's important because W. robusta, that palm you see all over LA, isn't nearly as hardy. it's skinnier, and leans more, and has brown at the base of the petioles where they join the trunk. Filiferas are plain green. Hybrid mutts aren't nearly as hardy, and that's what you'll tend to get around here in LA.

[jfrye01@live.com]

Maybe I could both:) I definitely want a Butia, but I also like the look of the Washy...I found a place in Dallas, TX that claims they sell the filifera, but they are small (15 gallon)...how would I tell them apart from the robusta when they're so small? Also, anyone know where I could buy some filifera seeds? I think it would be kinda neat to grow em from seeds!

Edited February 12, 2014 by jfrye01@live.com

[Brad Mondel]

Filfera has no tawny color on the leaf bases, it has persistent cotton like threads on the fronds and grows slower. Filifera has the tawny, bronze

bases with more thorns on the petioles. It's faster growing but it isn't as hardy as Filfera.

Butias are much more cold tolerant than Washingtonia. Butias show no damage here at 14F and washingtonias are completely defoliated and perhaps even dead.

Edited February 12, 2014 by ArchAngeL01

[stevethegator]

In desert conditions, Washingtonia filifera is darn near invincible. Notice, both people that responded to your post live in the wet, humid, east where Butia is clearly hardier. In the arid west it's a different story entirely, Butia is still hardy to cold, but W. filifera is tougher, it grows faster, rebounds faster, likes the soil better, and can take unbelievably low temps. I saw some videos of heavy damage in Las Cruces New Mexico from a few years ago, I think they recorded temps of like -5 F, washies completely defoliated but recovered. In the right climate those things are tanks. So I guess the real question is do your local conditions favor Washingtonia or Butia?

That's what I was thinking, I heard the same reports from New Mexico, no way a Butia survives -5 anywhere

[jfrye01@live.com]

That's good to know! Didn't know they could handle THAT cold! Wow!

[stevethegator]

That's the bad thing about Kansas, some years, it's incredibly wet, and some years, like the year before last, it was dry...no rain for two months. For the most part, it is somewhere in between. NWS shows we get around 33 inches of rain per year...so I'm not really sure what would do best here, we're probably somewhere in between...

The real issue is moisture in the winter months during the freeze events. Damp crowns + deep freeze = dead palms of any type. I'd say even though Kansas is on the dry side, you get enough precip to make Butia the better choice, with protection of course

[stevethegator]

Don't forget, Butia is native to the rather dry grassland areas of southern South America that experience substantial drought conditions, even fire. Washingtonia is native to the desert SW but almost always grows near running water, meaning its roots have access to constant moisture most of the time. Its not that W. filifera doesn't like ground moisture, but never experiences high atmospheric humidity and rarely experiences precipitation. For this reason I think W. filifera would be challenging anywhere but a truly arid climate, while Butia appears to be able to survive in both. Either is going to be a challenge in Kansas so just pick the one you like best!

As an aside, there are some large Butia here in Atlanta that have been around awhile. It was 5F here last month and has been that cold before in recent decades. I imagine most Butia will be killed but there will likely be survivors. It's hardy!

Edited February 12, 2014 by stevethegator

[mike2748]

Might even try a mule palm

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Hello all:) I've been doing a ton of research the past couple of days, but could not find a definite answer...from experience or just knowledge, does anyone happen to know which will handle a lower temperature? I'm in zone 6, and this winter, we have seen temperatures down to -10F a couple times (this is very very rare for southern Kansas, but still, it can and does happen every few years) so obviously either would need heavy protection, but which is more likely to survive when the palm is too tall to place a box over in winter? I'm making a road trip to Dallas (~4.5 hour drive ) in a couple days to visit a friend, and I am planning on picking up one of either, possibly both...so any advice would be great! Thanks!

My recommendation is that you stick with what growers outside of the palm belt focus on, and that's windmill + needle + palmetto + butia. Focus on that group, there is plenty of growing experience with those in a wide range of non-palm climate types, from desert to wet Winters. Butia stay much shorter and therefore can be around a solid 20 years before they outgrow a seasonal Winter shelter structure height wise.

I've read the cold hardy palm boards for quite some time because I host the Pacific Northwest Palm board, and I hear more about washingtonia failures than anything else. As many have suggested on this thread, only w. filifera is really hardy below 9a, but it has to be a dry Winter climate for it to make it. Filifera is dead on arrival in Kansas, and even if you can protect it with a structure, it's going to outgrow your structure in less than 5 years starting from a 15 gallon plant.

Try to find the silver butia, it's gonna be much hardier than the green version. That's because the silver indicates adaptation to drought. It's the ability of a palm to withstand drought that dictates how hardy it is. Freezing foliage means water gets pulled out of the cells as ice forms outside of the cell walls, not inside. So cells essentially get dessicated. Those palms that can tolerate that cell desiccation the most are the ones that have the most drought tolerance.

[smithgn]

Great info and totally agree ^ and also, if you get hungry, butias make some decent fruit As if that'd be a deciding factor... haha

Axel- First time I've seen the phrase "palm belt". Would this not be interchangeable with the geographic/political term, Sun Belt?

[Brad Mondel]

Filfera has no tawny color on the leaf bases, it has persistent cotton like threads on the fronds and grows slower. Filifera has the tawny, bronze

bases with more thorns on the petioles. It's faster growing but it isn't as hardy as Filfera.

Butias are much more cold tolerant than Washingtonia. Butias show no damage here at 14F and washingtonias are completely defoliated and perhaps even dead.

Sorry, I meant Robusta has tawny colored bases. Not Filifera.

[jfrye01@live.com]

Thanks for the info and encouragement everyone:) As I am somewhat impulsive, I drove to Dallas and picked up a 15 gallon Butia:) This one was outside through the ice/snowstorms the past couple months, and is still very very green and happy looking:) I just arrived home with it, and placed it next to my Trachy, where it will spend the next month or so until it can be planted outside:) Here's the Butia and the Trachy together in their temporary habitat...

[Brad Mondel]

Awesome butia! That's a great size to start with. I look forward to seeing your new garden grow !

[jfrye01@live.com]

I'll definitely keep everyone updated! Thanks for your help:) Everyone thinks I'm crazy..."You think you can grow palm trees? in Kansas?" Well, I'm not 100% sure, but I'm definitely gonna give it a try! There's a few Trachys and Sabals sprinkled around in Wichita, so I don't see why not:P

[stevethegator]

Go for it! Nice Butia

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Great info and totally agree ^ and also, if you get hungry, butias make some decent fruit As if that'd be a deciding factor... haha

Axel- First time I've seen the phrase "palm belt". Would this not be interchangeable with the geographic/political term, Sun Belt?

Well, the sunbelt extends well North of the palm belt, I was referring to all those climates where palms are generally considered bread and butter landscaping and can grow into maturity. Drawing exact lines would lead into a massive debate, so let's keep it nice and fuzzy.

I'll definitely keep everyone updated! Thanks for your help:) Everyone thinks I'm crazy..."You think you can grow palm trees? in Kansas?" Well, I'm not 100% sure, but I'm definitely gonna give it a try! There's a few Trachys and Sabals sprinkled around in Wichita, so I don't see why not:P

You've received a calling to the palm world, there's not much you can do about it other than to grow palms. Just be prepared to have to invest some serious elbow grease to make it happen in your current climate. People in worse climates than your have been called to palm duty so make the best of it. Don't assume these things will survive your Winters un-protected, learn from all the other Northern growers how to build the right shelter for these. Not sure how old you are, but make sure that when it comes time to go to College, you get to go somewhere warm, and study something that can allow you to make a living a little closer to the equator.

[Sabal Steve]

Thanks for the reply! Maybe I'll try a Sabal instead:) I have a couple sabal minor and a Trachy, which will all be planted this spring, however, I want palms that people will notice when they come to the house:P Crazy, I know:)

Sabal!!! Yes!!! Look into S. Birmingham.

[jfrye01@live.com]

I already have an idea on winter protection:P I'm just concerned we'll get a late frost this spring after planting...we've had frosts as late as April 20 before, but hopefully it won't happen. I'm thinking I'm gonna plant them first of April, and spend all summer planning winter protection, which I think will consist of some type of small temporary greenhouse with a heating source inside. And Sabal birmingham will be my next palm:) I'm gonna go pick one up in a couple weeks:)

[jfrye01@live.com]

While we're on the topic of a butia, do these palms do better being a standalone tree, rather than part of a garden? Cause I have a vision of the butia being in the middle of the open yard on the south side of my house...would this work? (Obviously, i'd up the winter protection)

[NorthFlpalmguy]

I have some and have seen a full field of wash robustas (from 3-20ft tall) here that the fronds are completely burnt from our freezes. The only positive about them is they grow so fast and are so cheap that you can buy more to replace the burnt ones.

Butias will be fine most anyway you want to do them. Pour the fertilizer to them and they will grow fine.