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Chamaerops humilis var ?


iwan

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(Charles/Portugal @ Feb. 25 2007,16:28)

QUOTE

(Nigel @ Feb. 25 2007,20:06)

QUOTE
Charles,you can only buy from one company in Sicily and they produce thousands upon thousands. Female trees were removed and used for breeding stock and only males sold to stop the competition acquiring the palm.

Nigel,  I bought some 15 or so young C.vulcano 6 years ago; several are female and fruiting as well now.

I seriously doubt that growers will wait with selling plants till they know if it's a female or male, if they grow them by the thousands and only sell the males, they must have a few thousand female plants taking up space in their nurseries.

It's also strange that they are not on the market anymore at least here in Portugal.

Charles, seriously its true , we handled many many larger plants and all were males.

The small ones it was impossible to know , so I guess they decided by the time they matured the monopoly would be broken anyway.

I know a grower who bouhgt 100 small ones from northern europe because he couldnt buy them in sicily ,and transported them all the way back to sicily and planted them for that very purpose.

If you have a highly profitable monopoly you will go to extraordinary lenghts to protect your plant. These are italians !

The freak chamerops from spain is very beautiful indeed, any seeds ?

Resident in Bristol UK.

Webshop for hardy palms and hybrid seeds www.hardy-palms.co.uk

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(Nigel @ Feb. 24 2007,10:49)

QUOTE
Picture039Medium.jpg

Dear Nigel  :)

what is the palm seen in that huge blue container inside the

house area ?

i wish to see those plants too,can you post a tour of those

container palms you posses and it appears like even you

have lots of plants in containers like i do here in Madras.  ???

Thanks in advance & Love,

Kris  :)

love conquers all..

43278.gif

.

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(Nigel @ Feb. 25 2007,23:04)

QUOTE
The freak chamerops from spain is very beautiful indeed, any seeds ?

@Nigel

You do know that they do not come back like that from seed!

The owner has fabricated some pots around the offshoots to minimize the shock when he takes them off the motherplant(always a risky operation with Chamaerops)

@Carlo & Zac

It was a windy day not good for photographing moving wispy leaves with a digicam(shutter delay and all that), so this is the only pic, the leaflets are bifid ...

For some reason the freaky Chamaerops are always the ones in cultivation, lots of wild ones here but they are all regular.

Here is a form growing in a palace garden in Estoi(Portugal)

post-37-1172477922_thumb.jpg

Charles Wychgel

Algarve/Portugal

Sunset zone 24

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Charles, the progeny of the freaky one would surely show some of the characteristics or you think not ?

Resident in Bristol UK.

Webshop for hardy palms and hybrid seeds www.hardy-palms.co.uk

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(Nigel @ Feb. 26 2007,00:04)

QUOTE

(Charles/Portugal @ Feb. 25 2007,16:28)

QUOTE

(Nigel @ Feb. 25 2007,20:06)

QUOTE
Charles,you can only buy from one company in Sicily and they produce thousands upon thousands. Female trees were removed and used for breeding stock and only males sold to stop the competition acquiring the palm.

Nigel,  I bought some 15 or so young C.vulcano 6 years ago; several are female and fruiting as well now.

I seriously doubt that growers will wait with selling plants till they know if it's a female or male, if they grow them by the thousands and only sell the males, they must have a few thousand female plants taking up space in their nurseries.

It's also strange that they are not on the market anymore at least here in Portugal.

Charles, seriously its true , we handled many many larger plants and all were males.

The small ones it was impossible to know , so I guess they decided by the time they matured the monopoly would be broken anyway.

I know a grower who bouhgt 100 small ones from northern europe because he couldnt buy them in sicily ,and transported them all the way back to sicily and planted them for that very purpose.

If you have a highly profitable monopoly you will go to extraordinary lenghts to protect your plant. These are italians !

The freak chamerops from spain is very beautiful indeed, any seeds ?

Nigel!!

What  do You  mean "These are Italians"

The  nursery  who  have  the  Vulcano  for  sale in  Sicily is  managed  by  a foreign, So  think  before  write!!

And  also  the  story  that only  male  palms are  for  sale ...

please...

Just  for  info,  2 of  the main nursery  in  Italy,  growing actually  thousand  of  Vulcano.

So  ,  early  ,  this  palm will be  largerly  available

at  right cost(  from  €.3,00   to €.6,00)

M@x

North Rome Italy

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Well, that's another myth nailed.  Next thing you know, someone will pipe up and say that the Tooth Fairy and the Loch Ness Monster don't really exist! :)

The 'Vulcano' palms are sold by at least two growers in Sicily now - the biggest, Piante Faro, has them by the thousand I think.  Mr Vulcano's nursery is a fairly small set-up by comparison.  My thoughts would be that with so many chamaerops growing in Sicily, possibly millions, how can they keep the genetics pure?

'The Essex Riviera'

Southeast England, UK

winter min usually -5C

Summer max usually 35C

Rainfall usually 20" (500mm)

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(M@ximus @ Feb. 26 2007,07:15)

QUOTE
[

Nigel!!

What  do You  mean "These are Italians"

The  nursery  who  have  the  Vulcano  for  sale in  Sicily is  managed  by  a foreign, So  think  before  write!!

And  also  the  story  that only  male  palms are  for  sale ...

please...

Just  for  info,  2 of  the main nursery  in  Italy,  growing actually  thousand  of  Vulcano.

So  ,  early  ,  this  palm will be  largerly  available

at  right cost(  from  €.3,00   to €.6,00)

Max, it wasnt meant in bad way !!!

I like italians !!!

You have to admit, it is like the spy wars sometimes , the stories and tales from italian nurserymen, each has his own secrets , I always enjoy talking to italian nurserymen because you can have the most wonderful conversations, and each nursery owner is growing the most special most rare and best quality variety of palm known to man.

Quality and value is always excellent , but the intrigue that goes with buying is a wonderful experience in itself.

The story about male palms is true, its impossible with the smallest sizes to sex them, but in 10 years i have yet to see a fruiting female come out of that nursery. Those females go into production for more and more palms.

Resident in Bristol UK.

Webshop for hardy palms and hybrid seeds www.hardy-palms.co.uk

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Charles,

One of my Chamaerops looks very similar to the one you photographed in Spain, and what a beauty that is. The pinna on mine are deeply bifid and thin and wispey, but there are so many that they tend to fold over each other, however mine is green and it looks like the one you photographed is quite blue or silver. Do you remember if it was a male or female plant?  Mine is a female and I would hand pollenate it if I could find a similar male plant.

About hording plants or seeds:  This is nothing new as every new palm to cultivation is expensive in the beginning.  It all has to do with supply.  I can remember how expensive Kerriodoxa and Wodyetia were when they first became available, then the price plummets when the introduced palms begin to fruit. Wodyetia is now one of the most commonly planted palms in S. Fla. and I predict C. vulcano will be very common in a few years.

Variegated rhapis can only be propigated by divisions, not seed, and the process is very slow, so they will always be expensive as the supply can not keep up with the demand. I expect the cocoid hybrids will remain expensive because there aren't that many availalbe, and it's a slow, tedious process. One can never be 100% sure the plants will be hybrids, and it takes about 3 years until the seedlings grow and show adult characteristics.  With hybrids, it takes about 5 years from pollenation to the product, about the same time it would take to grow a Jubaea to a sellable size...and not many Jubaeas are being grown by nurserymen.

Dick

Richard Douglas

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(Paul S @ Feb. 26 2007,13:19)

QUOTE
Well, that's another myth nailed.  Next thing you know, someone will pipe up and say that the Tooth Fairy and the Loch Ness Monster don't really exist! :)

The 'Vulcano' palms are sold by at least two growers in Sicily now - the biggest, Piante Faro, has them by the thousand I think.  Mr Vulcano's nursery is a fairly small set-up by comparison.  My thoughts would be that with so many chamaerops growing in Sicily, possibly millions, how can they keep the genetics pure?

Paul!  the  other  big  nursery  is  Vivai  tor  San Lorenzo

Like  Carlo Morici said,  there isn't  a  colony  of  Chamaerops  Vulcano on Vulcano Island

The  Vulcano " Forms" is  just  a normal  variation of  Chamaerops,(imo) that founded  a high  interest  in europe

I  have  many  chamaerops  vulcano  ,  just  labelled

Chamaerops  Humilis on  the  nursery when  boughted, including    other  6 different  forms  of  chamaerops

So , I  don't  think  there  are  risk  for  genetics  change!

I  think  the  must  will  be  a cross  between  Vulcano  and  Cerifera (or  viceversa)

M@x

M@x

North Rome Italy

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Sorry Dick, it was getting late and dark, I have to back some day and do some more pix.

Nigel you better be nice to the Italians.... don't forget Carlo is Italian as well.

I think the Italians put a lot of theatrical showmanship in the way they do business..... and I love that.

Charles Wychgel

Algarve/Portugal

Sunset zone 24

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M@x,

You gave me an idea. I'll try crossing C. Cerifera with my wispey fronded Chamaerops, that is, if my male C. Cerifera blooms this spring. I have never seen a large C. Cerifera, but my plants tend to look somewhat drarf and the pinea are rather thin.  Does anyone have a picture of a large C. Cerifera? Mine are holding their silver color nicely, even in the chill of N. Calif. this winter.

Alan, the nursery where I found the C. mutant very well could have been in Bradenton. It's been over 40 years.....and I can't even remember what I had for dinner last night!  I'm not sure if "Reasoner's" is the correct spelling either.  I'm sure there must be some old timer in your area that would remember. As I recall, the nursery in question went out of business a few years later after my visit.

There used to be a nursery near Dade Land in Miami, just off Kendall Road, called Fantastic Gardens and it was fantastic.  I used to visit it often just to see the rare plants they had for sale there.  It really was one of the most exquisite nurserys I've ever visited, and I usually left with my wallet thinner.  Unfortunately, the nursery was sold and it went into rapid decline. I suppose it's all condos now as the land in that area became very expensive.

Dick

Richard Douglas

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(Charles/Portugal @ Feb. 26 2007,08:36)

QUOTE
I think the Italians put a lot of theatrical showmanship in the way they do business..... and I love that.

I thought that was what I did say. Anyway as max hasnt responded he obviously doesnt agree,but thats up to him if he wants to take something the way it was not intended.

Resident in Bristol UK.

Webshop for hardy palms and hybrid seeds www.hardy-palms.co.uk

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(PalmGuyWC @ Feb. 26 2007,08:04)

QUOTE
About hording plants or seeds:  This is nothing new as every new palm to cultivation is expensive in the beginning.  It all has to do with supply.  and I predict C. vulcano will be very common in a few years.

Dick, if I had Chamerops vulcano I would do exactly the same thing. It would be stupid to sell off mature female plants for as long as demand outstrips supply.

Until now it has been impossible to even buy a Chamerops humilis vulcano seed let alone a mature female, but once these small plants like Charles start fruiting in numbers things will begin to change, but by then those italian nurseries will have huge production at cheap prices and dominate the market.

The good thing is that countries like the US will be able to start growing them there.

Resident in Bristol UK.

Webshop for hardy palms and hybrid seeds www.hardy-palms.co.uk

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Hahahaha , I love italian nurserymen ,soooooo many tales to throw the competition off the scent !!!

Hey..... no mi rompa il coglioni !!!!

Bobby

Long Island, New York  Zone 7a (where most of the southern Floridians are originally from)

AVERAGE TEMPS

Summer Highs  : 85-90f/day,  68-75f / night

Winter Lows     : 38-45f/day,   25-35f / night

Extreme Low    : 10-20f/day,    0-10f / night   but VERY RARE

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(BobbyinNY @ Feb. 26 2007,10:00)

QUOTE
Hahahaha , I love italian nurserymen ,soooooo many tales to throw the competition off the scent !!!

Hey..... no mi rompa il coglioni !!!!

Neither I nor the universal translator can make sense of that .......... but i think its bad, so i shall exit the thread with tail between legs even though I didnt intentionally set out to insult anybody.

Resident in Bristol UK.

Webshop for hardy palms and hybrid seeds www.hardy-palms.co.uk

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Beautifull picture's from the diffrent chamaerops froms ...

I know i can buy if i want here easy humilis,cericifera ... vulcano you see them here as well for sale but not at the same way like the 2 others :)

Robbin

Southwest

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(Exotic Life @ Feb. 26 2007,19:08)

QUOTE
Beautifull picture's from the diffrent chamaerops froms ...

I know i can buy if i want here easy humilis,cericifera ... vulcano you see them here as well for sale but not at the same way like the 2 others :)

Robbin

Ciao  robbin!!

M@x

North Rome Italy

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(M@ximus @ Feb. 26 2007,13:21)

QUOTE
Sorry !push  wrong button

robbin    near  your  place  You  can  find  for  sale  very  nice  Chamerops Vulcano   and  more     at   this  address  http://www.europalms.be/index.htm

the  owner  James  is  a great  person      M@x

Ciao Max!

Yeah i know this person. Some time ago i was go to his house, to get some canna bulbs. He was moved from house when i was there, so the garden was a little "new". I must to go there again i think ... to see the garden again :) Oh and james of course :D

Robbin

Southwest

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 You  can  find  for  sale  very  nice  Chamerops Vulcano   and  more at  Gardenpalms Holland ( www.gardenaplms.com )also, herbert is an equally nice guy as James both of whom I know very well.

These are the same lineage as the ones in my pictures, and will look just like my plant in a few years,and you can buy the larger sizes as well as small ones.

Having spent ages posting pics and info I only think its fair to give equal billing to my colleague in Holland !

Max also knows herbert.

Resident in Bristol UK.

Webshop for hardy palms and hybrid seeds www.hardy-palms.co.uk

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(Nigel @ Feb. 26 2007,13:47)

QUOTE
 You  can  find  for  sale  very  nice  Chamerops Vulcano   and  more at  Gardenpalms Holland ( www.gardenaplms.com )also, herbert is an equally nice guy as James both of whom I know very well.

These are the same lineage as the ones in my pictures, and will look just like my plant in a few years,and you can buy the larger sizes as well as small ones.

Having spent ages posting pics and info I only think its fair to give equal billing to my colleague in Holland !

Max also knows herbert.

Hi Nigel,

I know that company also, but i don't have meet Herbert so far. Also Tropical centre, in the same area ... i don't have see that company. I have contact a lot of time's the guy from cemunnos (www.cemunnos.nl). Do you know him also ?

If i want to buy a vulcano, i don't have to search very far :)

And max, how do you know that people? Are you have been in Holland ?

Robbin

Southwest

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I met Dennis from Cemmunos a couple of times, he is another really nice guy.

You really need to get round and meet these guys and see their nurseries !

Resident in Bristol UK.

Webshop for hardy palms and hybrid seeds www.hardy-palms.co.uk

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There is still a big void in my knowledge, the myth is not yet nailed: I  do not know who named this palm so and I also do not know who started the story.

If  Vulcano is not from Vulcano I still ask myself how and where Chamaerops humilis Vulcano originated. I can imagine it appeared as a mutant individual in cultivation in mainland Sicily, then selected and reproduced by professional nurserymen.

Or maybe someone brought seeds from plants cultivated on the island of Vulcano and one or few unusual seedlings appeared in the resulting offspring. Or maybe the compact plant was grown in a home garden on Vulcano and purchased by a smart plant hunter, and then taken to mainland Sicily.

On the other hand, wild populations of Chamaerops in the archipelago of the Aeolian Islands are understudied. The curator of the Botanical Gardens in Messina, Rosella Picone, has pictures of palms in vertical cliffs on the islands, that have only been photographed from boats and never collected. Vulcano itself is quite steep but the botanists explored most corners. I just visited the island for short holidays.

Eolian Islands:

Map from Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolian_Islands

:

Aeolian_Islands_map.png

An aerial view from www.esemar.net

Vulcano-PortoDiPonente-map-medium.jpg

Morphologically extreme specimens of Chamaerops can be cherry-picked in cultivation and - I assume - easily fixed in descendants. Most extreme forms probably do not thrive in the wild, but they often appear in progeny and can easily survive in cultivation. The genus Chamaerops, consists of only one species but it is highly diverse. Probably because of the widespread and fragmented distribution and because of the often heterogeneous, uneven substrates (cliffs, rocky areas, etc.) to which it is often restricted.

The history of Chamaerops humilis Vulcano is probably similar to the ones of Trachycarpus fortunei wagnerianus  and  the compact forms of D.lutescens, A.catechu, etc. seemingly appeared in the same way.

Maybe the story of the only-male Vulcano for sale was true for the first years. Possibly, once the first business was done they released the females and eventually they released seeds to public mass production. Can anyone confirm?

Dick's Chamaerops (subject of the thread) and the Plant from Gandia, grown by Charles are new to me. I have seen other individuals that also had very few segments per leaf, but never as compact as this.

Carlo

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Someone in this thread mentioned a Mr Vulcano...perhaps it was named after him, like Waggies or Trachycarpus fortunei. Who knows!?!?!?! Is Vulcano a popular surname in Italy?

Zac

Zac  

Living to get back to Mexico

International Palm Society member since 2007

http://community.webshots.com/user/zacspics - My Webshots Gallery

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What started as a show and tell about my mutant Chamaerops has turned into a very interesting discussion. Carlo, thanks for publishing the map as I only had a vague idea of where Vulcano was. I find it kind of humerous that you Europeans have found a palm growing in your own back yard, so to speak, that has caused such a sensation in the palm world. Now, I'm very curious to find out the mystery of C. Vulcano, where it originated, etc. Perhaps one of you charming Italians can squeeze the information out of Mr. Vulcano, if there is such a person.  I'm sure someone in the nursery business in Italy knows the secret.

At least we know the origan of my C. mutant.  It came from a nursery with about 100 Chamaerops for sale.....and it stood out to me from all the rest.  Purely and simply, it's just a mutant with some unusual qualities.  The neatest thing is that it's polygamo-dioecious (bi-sexual....that word again) and can reproduce its self.  Thus far all the seedlings have been an exact copy of the mother plant.

C. cericifera was only brought into cultivation in recent years, yet Nigel says it was growing in Spain for many years...however very rare. The wispey silver/blue Charles photographed is certainly outstanding too. I'm sure if it could be replicated, it would be very popular with pamophyles and others.

There must be other mutations or unusual varieties of Chamaehrops out there, maybe growing in a nursery or on the Eiolean Islands. There could be one germinating in your back yard. I wonder how thoroughly N. Africa has been explored where Chamaerops grow?  Isn't that where C. cericifera came from?  Keep your eyes open. If anyone else has a pic of an unusual Chamaerops, please send it in.

Dick

Richard Douglas

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(Nigel @ Feb. 26 2007,19:47)

QUOTE
 You  can  find  for  sale  very  nice  Chamerops Vulcano   and  more at  Gardenpalms Holland ( www.gardenaplms.com )also, herbert is an equally nice guy as James both of whom I know very well.

These are the same lineage as the ones in my pictures, and will look just like my plant in a few years,and you can buy the larger sizes as well as small ones.

Having spent ages posting pics and info I only think its fair to give equal billing to my colleague in Holland !

Max also knows herbert.

Sorry Nigel, I  forgot  to  mention    Herbert  from  Garden Palms  .  Maybe  is closer  to  Robbin  than James

Great  Nursery  and  great assortment  of palms

Carlo, Years ago, The story  was, that  Chamaerops  Vulcano  , growing  at   the foot of  the  montain   Vesuvio(another  Volcano in Naples(for  foreign) :D )

One of  the  first  nursery that  had  for  sale chamerops  Vulcano was  near  Caserta

Zac,  I  don't  know  any  Mr  Vulcano Antonio :D

So,  the  confusion  is  total

M@x

M@x

North Rome Italy

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(Carlo Morici @ Feb. 26 2007,19:00)

QUOTE
There is still a big void in my knowledge, the myth is not yet nailed: I  do not know who named this palm so and I also do not know who started the story.

If  Vulcano is not from Vulcano I still ask myself how and where Chamaerops humilis Vulcano originated. I can imagine it appeared as a mutant individual in cultivation in mainland Sicily, then selected and reproduced by professional nurserymen.

Or maybe someone brought seeds from plants cultivated on the island of Vulcano and one or few unusual seedlings appeared in the resulting offspring. Or maybe the compact plant was grown in a home garden on Vulcano and purchased by a smart plant hunter, and then taken to mainland Sicily.

On the other hand, wild populations of Chamaerops in the archipelago of the Aeolian Islands are understudied. The curator of the Botanical Gardens in Messina, Rosella Picone, has pictures of palms in vertical cliffs on the islands, that have only been photographed from boats and never collected. Vulcano itself is quite steep but the botanists explored most corners. I just visited the island for short holidays.

Eolian Islands:

Morphologically extreme specimens of Chamaerops can be cherry-picked in cultivation and - I assume - easily fixed in descendants. Most extreme forms probably do not thrive in the wild, but they often appear in progeny and can easily survive in cultivation. The genus Chamaerops, consists of only one species but it is highly diverse. Probably because of the widespread and fragmented distribution and because of the often heterogeneous, uneven substrates (cliffs, rocky areas, etc.) to which it is often restricted.

The history of Chamaerops humilis Vulcano is probably similar to the ones of Trachycarpus fortunei wagnerianus  and  the compact forms of D.lutescens, A.catechu, etc. seemingly appeared in the same way.

Maybe the story of the only-male Vulcano for sale was true for the first years. Possibly, once the first business was done they released the females and eventually they released seeds to public mass production. Can anyone confirm?

Dick's Chamaerops (subject of the thread) and the Plant from Gandia, grown by Charles are new to me. I have seen other individuals that also had very few segments per leaf, but never as compact as this.

Carlo

Carlo , a great post, very enjoyable thanks. I would imagine if the islands each has its own population of chamerops its not inconceivable that one island developed its own clone ?

The seeds have never been available to Joe Public or the common grower ,if they had been we would have grown them. I did see some female plants last year for the first time but they were enormous 300 litre specimens, but those are the only ones I ever saw.

The Chamerops vulcano story is a hugely successful one  for those growers, when was the last time a new plant was so successful and exclusive in Europe ? Those guys are extremely good businessmen.

Resident in Bristol UK.

Webshop for hardy palms and hybrid seeds www.hardy-palms.co.uk

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Hi,

Today i have take a look to my Chamaerops plants, i have got one cericifera and the rest are humilis. But i have one plant from the humilissen that's are looking diffrent then the others ... Leaves are smaller and rounder .. i this a variety to or maybe a small vulcano ? Or maybe a whole diffrent species? I have bought it very cheap for a couple euro's at the supermarket :D

The little trunc

Foto001.jpg

Little spikes

Foto002.jpg

Inside the crown

Foto003.jpg

Southwest

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Would someone give the the phonetic pronounciation of "cericifera"? I have trouble with that word.

Dick

Richard Douglas

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Many years ago (probably 20+) there were no "Cerifera" available commercially in the UK and then I saw my first!

It had actually been privately imported from Minorca in the Balearic Islands.

There are some good size ones available here now at up to 3` but I dont know the source  tho possibly Southern Spain.

No doubt larger ones are already in the pipeline.

Regardez

Juan

Juan

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Dick, sorry I missed that out: I pronounce it Sir If Er A.

Each to his own with pronunciation:

EG. Sabal - I have heard both SABLE and SaBLE. (soft a)

Both guys were good latinists and knew their palms.

Regardez

Juan

Juan

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(Exotic Life @ Mar. 03 2007,17:12)

QUOTE
But i have one plant from the humilissen that's are looking diffrent then the others ... Leaves are smaller and rounder .. i this a variety to or maybe a small vulcano ? Or maybe a whole diffrent species? I have bought it very cheap for a couple euro's at the supermarket :D

Robbin ze benne ALLEMAAL ANDERS!

Zelfs als je zaad van 1 plant neemt zijn de nakomelingen allemaal verschillend.

Charles Wychgel

Algarve/Portugal

Sunset zone 24

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(PalmGuyWC @ Mar. 05 2007,11:42)

QUOTE
Would someone give the the phonetic pronounciation of "cericifera"? I have trouble with that word.

Dick

Dick

Chamaerops is Greek from  chamai low on the ground and rhops is bush.

As such the pronounciation of Chamaerops would be with a hard "c" as in key or canal so let's say "kamayrops"

Now cerifera, I would go with Bilbo but... I am not quite sure ....."cerifera" sounds Arabic to me or maybe Berber(the local lingo in the Atlas mountains)

Charles Wychgel

Algarve/Portugal

Sunset zone 24

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Thanks guys......Sir If Er A....I think I have it now. I have two in the ground and at least one is a female with 3 seeds. I expect a better bloom this year as last year was the first time they have bloomed.

Dick

Richard Douglas

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"cerifera" means wax-bearing.

"Cera" is wax (in Latin as well as in Italian, Spanish, etc.)

"-fera" means bearing, carrying.

Chamaerops humilis cerifera means "Humble low bush bearing wax"

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