Chamaerops humilis var ?

[iwan]

Amongst the amazing palms in Dick Douglas' (PalmGuyWC) garden, the following was one of the stand out specimens.  Unfortunately, photographs of the entire palm do not do justice.  I will let Dick fill in the full details on this unique specimen.

This is his in-ground specimen.  It is ~3' high overall.  This is the best shot I could capture.

His potted one photographs much better.

Closeup.

Even closer.

[iwan]

Here is one years worth of growth.  Dick puts a zip-tie around the first spear of the year as a growth reference.  Note how the teeth are restricted to the lower part of the petiole.

The silver tones show up best in this shot.

Tomentum on a new frond.

I fogot to take pictures of the fruit, which were ~1/2 the size of normal Chamaerops seed.

[deezpalms]

Chamaerops humilis var. cerifera!! I've got a nice n' beefy one in a 15 gal. pot. These are available at many places here in california for very good prices.

[Nigel]

That is no Chamaerops humilis cerifera.

In fact it is the weirdest most unusual Chamaerops I have ever seen in my life.

It seems to have taken juvenile leafs into adulthood !

[gsn]

Nigel,

I noted the same thing! The leaves are not opeing into a FAN, they are almost like STRAP leafs! But they don't even really look like the  the juvenile leafs on a small chamerops or a new forming sucker. They seem to be narrower than even those leafs!

Very unusal looking!

[MattyB]

Yeah, it's like the fans never opened.  Very unique.  I think it's called "Super Humilis".

[gsn]

(MattyB @ Feb. 22 2007,12:08)

QUOTE

 I think it's called "Super Humilis".

Matty,

I think you better check with NEOFLORA on that name? I think he has it TRADEMARKED! :laugh:

[The Germinator]

They almost look like some of my fan palm leaves that got crispy from the cold.

[LJG]

Maybe it's parents were brother and sister, and this is their offspring.

[M@ximus]

I  have   6  different  forms  of Chamaerops  collected  around  Italy( Vulcano and  cerifera apart)

But  Honestly  I  never  see   a  such  particular  and  beautiful   CHAMAEROPS  

Keep  the  seeds !! You  will  have  a treasure

Ciao  M@x

[PalmGuyWC]

Robert,

Thanks so much for posting those pictures.  I'm sorry I'm such a computer dummy and haven't learned how to do it myself. I really enjoyed your enthueastic, photographic visit and the garden walk.

I found the unusual Chamaerops in a nursery in Tampa Florida over 40 years ago. It was one amongst 100 Chamaerops and I latched on to it immediately as it seemed very unusual.  The young country boy who took it out to my car said, "Mister, you don't want that palm.  It's sick."  I thought to myself, "Oh yes I do."

It was eventually shipped back to Calif, where it grew for many years in a large container.  When it started blooming, it became apparent that it was bi-sexual, as it had both male and female flowers on the same inflorescense, the males on the tip and the females at the base.  When I germinated the seeds, the seedlings came true, as the parent. The seeds are quite small, probably only 1/4 the size of a normal Chamaerops and the seedlings are very small, and initially only have a very narrow grass like frond.  It takes a while before they start to grow, but once they have several grass like fronds, they speed up.

By Chamaerops standards the plant is a true drawf and the trunks are only about 1/4 the size of a "normal" chamaerops.  Before the mother plant became to large, I was able to remove several pups.  Unlike most Chamaerops which seem to grow from a central core, the suckers had small rhizomes and were somewhat eaiser to remove.  Untangling the roots was not a simple matter and it took me hours.  The small suckers (maybe 10 inches) had 3 to 4 roots and the roots were huge compaired to the plant.  They were full sized roots and looked very strange coming from such a small plant.

The petioles of the plant are unarmed until about 1/4 near the base where they grow from the trunk.  The fronds are the most unusual of all as they only grow about 1 to 4 blades and they are covered with a white tomentosem.  They look frosted when they first emerge, but rain and overhead watering eventually washes the tomemtosem off somewhat. The blades of the fronds are thick and stiff, almost as stiff as the petioles.

This is a most unusual Chamaerops and some were distributed at Northern Calif palm sales some years ago.  I'm curious to know who out there might still have one.  I recieved a call the other day from a fellow who once lived near me and bought one at one of our palm sales.  He now lives in St. George Utah and still has the plant.  Yes, palms do grow in Utah, but only in the SW corner, an hour and a half from Las Vegas where many palm grow.

I once though of getting a patient on this plant, but when I found out how expensive and what a hassle it is, I dropped that idea. I just hope it gets out there into cultivation and is preserved.  The Japaneese should love it since it's a dwarf, hardy to cold, and can be bonsied.

Dick

[ghar41]

A very unique variation!  

Dick, I don't remember seeing this plant when I visited your garden at the last society meeting held at your place.  

For those who haven't seen his place, it is truly one of the finest private palm gardens anywhere.  He has massive Butia, Syargrus and Jubaea hybrids that are among the largest known.  Also, the list of large temperate palms at his place is impressive to say the least.

The Dick Douglas garden is legendary to NorCal palmophiles among others worldwide.

Any more photos Robert?

[Zac in NC]

Wow, that is one of the most unusual Chamaerhops I have ever seen. I want one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Zac

[iwan]

(ghar41 @ Feb. 22 2007,13:18)

QUOTE

The Dick Douglas garden is legendary to NorCal palmophiles among others worldwide.

Any more photos Robert?

Yes Glenn,

A photo tour of Dick's garden will be coming soon.  Keep an eye on the Travellogue section.

[Geoff]

Here's another bizarre form, in Santa Barbara's Lotusland.... not quite the same, though.

http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/37562/

[STEVE IN SO CAL]

Before the freeze I had one (cerifera) that was a dwarfy/bushy plant. If it lives, I'll post a pic.

I found a droopy form (much like Liv Decipiens/Br Clara) nearby. There is a pic in Riffle/Craft book of one, too.

Hey Dick..l'll trade you some seeds...

[Gileno Machado]

One of the most beautiful small palms I've seen. In fact, I've tried the seeds just recently and now I keep looking at second strap leaves with great expectation...

I've shown this photo here before. Growing outside, in San Francisco CA.

I'd love to check an updated picture of it.

[Kris]

Hey guys  

Be it Med Fan Palm or not the stills of that palm is fentastic,

and as max has said its seeds should be saved to be

propogated in a big way !

thanks & Love,

Kris  

[Exotic Life]

Very nice plant you have there ... like the other i have never seen a variation like that. I have seen only the variation humilis, cericifera and vulcano in my life ...

Robbin

[Alberto]

(PalmGuyWC @ Feb. 22 2007,15:27)

QUOTE

I'm curious to know who out there might still have one.

Some years ago i swaped seeds with Patric and he sent me seeds of a´´dwarf Chamaerops´´.Is this the mother plant?  Do you have male and female?

 My little seedlings are ssssloooowwwww.........

[PalmGuyWC]

I have seen many varieations of C. humilus, some robust with thick trunks and stiff fronds, others with thin droopy fronds.  Some are green, some silver,  some almost blue. I have one with very thin blades and they weep, another that is silver underneeth the fronds, another a pale green with no silver at all. (My "weepy one" is refered to in Genera Palmarum under the Chamaehrops section).

I keep hearing about C. Vulcano.  What makes it so different?  Anyone with pictures of it?  I once saw a picture of a C. humilus in Los Angeles that had simple fronds.  The fronds were "cuped" and did not divide. It looked like a Lucuala

There are many reports of single trunked Chamaerops, but I haven't seen many, as most seem to clump.  I did know of a lady in S. Fla that had a growing ground of Chamaerops and she had recieved her seeds from Italy. A small precentage of hers were single trunked.

The problem of growing Chamaerops clones is.....you can never be sure of what will result if you don't know who the daddy is. Most Chamaehrops are dieociious, however some are monecious, such as my Chamaerops mutation and so far, all of the seedlings have come true, just like the mother plant. I suppose to grow a clone or a variety of Chamaerops, one would have to cross the siblings of a particular variety to make sure the characteristics of that plant were carried forward.

I have one speciman Chamaerops growing near my pool.  It has 9 trunks about 10' high. All of the trunks are female except for one which has male flowers each year.  All of the female trunks produce a full cluster of fruit each year. It's rather weird and I can't figgure out how only one trunk could be male.  I am positive it is all one plant and not two mixed together.

Such are the oddities of that magnificant palm that comes from Europe and North Africa. One could have an entire Chamaerops palm garden and no two would be alike.

Dick

[Alan_Tampa]

Dick, that wasn't the Hudson Nursery that you got that palm at, was it?

In Tampa on Dale Mabry.

Alan

[PalmGuyWC]

Alan,

It's been so long ago that I don't remember the name of the Nursery. I do remember they had several different kinds of small African cycads for sale. I think the nursery went out of business a few years later.  Somehow the name Reaisner comes to mind, but I'm not sure.

Alberto, I'm sure if Patrick sent you seeds of a dwarf, and the seeds were very small, they are from my plant.  Just be patient as they are very slow when small.  After they grow a few more grass like blades they should speed up. Because of their small size, they make great container plants for many years. I gave the original mother plant to Patrick some years ago since I already had a nice one in the ground, and I had no place to plant another one.

Dick

[Nigel]

Vulcano.

[PalmGuyWC]

Nigel, thanks for the photos. It looks very compact and "frosted."  Does anyone in the USA have any for sale?  The pic of the one from Lotusland is very interesting too. Does anyone else have pictures to share of unusual Chamaerops?

I have 3 Chamaerops, var cericifera and they have just reached blooming size. (first time last year). It might be interesting to cross them with others that have unusual forms. I'd also be curious to know if the silver color is dominent or recessive.  Anyone done this yet?

Dick

[Nigel]

Dick, I encountered some very beautiful silver Chamaerops in Minorca during a holiday some 7 or 8 years ago.

These looked like regular chamaerops in every other way, and I managed to acquire some seed.

I grew them on and they didnt seem to have any colour and I sold most of them as normal chamerops.

I kept two here in the garden and I am now kicking myself. The leaf is extremely robust and glaucous and is beginning to show the silver colour.

I know that Chamerops cerifera has been in spain for over 100 years , but its not common. I suspect the plant I took seed from was a natural plant crossed with cerifera. Anyway its a beauty and if you can replicate that then go for it.

I also crossed cerifera with normal humilis 2 years ago, the seedlings are still small , but very vigorous (unlike cerifera) with a deep green colouration.  Chamerops humilis cerifera seedlings are also a deep green but the leaf would be a fraction the size of my hybrids.

Below , another pic of vulcano, pic of my minorca progeny, pic of my humilisxcerifera seedlings.

[PalmGuyWC]

Wow Nigel!!

All of your Chamaerops are nice, but I really like the apperance of vulcano. Because of it's small size, it could probably be container grown for many years. I like to have a few nice container specimens on my deck, and Chamaerops and Serenoa seem to fit the bill for me.

I know what you mean about parting with palms that later you wished you hadn't.  There is a very famous cactus and sucullent garden just a few blocks away from me. It's the Ruth Bancroft Garden and some years ago I gave her two Trithrinax campestris. One has turned out to be the most silver I've ever seen.  It's stunning, as silver as the most silver Bismarkia.

I have several palms that are supposed to be silver, or silver on the bottom sides of the fonds.....but they are still green.  I'm begining to belileve that palms must be mature before the silver shows.

Dick

[Nigel]

Dick the vulcano is the chammie waggie !!!

[Zac in NC]

Wow, Nigel, that Vulcano is awesome. I wish we could get that one over here. It seems like it is just a European thing.

Zac

[Paul S]

As a brief aside, I visited the nursery in Sicily where the plant was introduced from a couple of weeks ago - they have some wonderful old specimens that they harvest seed from (and I left my camera in the car!).  The wild palm is apparently only found on a small island off the coast of northern Sicily called Vulcano (hence the name of the chamaerops variety) and it was brought into cultivation from there.  There is still a large amount of variation within the 'Vulcano' plants, just like on regular chamaerops, but all on a dwarf scale.  Quite amazing to see rows and rows of them.  Nigel - your's is a really nice one - the thing I like about them is the extreme stubbiness, and that is a beaut.

[Exotic Life]

Nigel, That's a very good looking "vulcano" you have there.

I have only got the humilis and cericifera variety, the humilis i have got for 3 years in the ground now, and the cericifera from last spring. I don't have the vulcano yet, but they are nice so over some time i must have that variety to The only thing what i see with my cericifera, he lost here in the netherlands his extreme blue color

Robbin

[PalmGuyWC]

I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread that I had a nice speciman Chamaerops which is female except for one trunk that is male. I have never observed this phenomenon on any other Chamaerops. I have another Chamaerops that is monoecious, and has both male and female flowers on the same inflorescence. I used to call these bi-sexual plants hermaphrodites but I was corrected by one of the taxonomists and was told the term is called Polygamo-dioecious.  Whew, another botanical mouthfull!

I also have two Trachecarpus wags that are monecious. The wags. set fruit but generally abort the fruit just before it reaches maturity. This year one has a good fruit set and the seeds look mature. It's growing near some male T. fortuneis, so I can't be sure if it was self pollenated or not. I have found that when a female wag crosses with T. fortunei, all the progeny look like T. fortunei. It's easy to discern the difference once the seedlings grow a divided frond, as the pure T. wag will be tight, have several segments,  and the fronds will be stiff, where the T. fortuneis will be "stretched out" and have a thiner texture.

I also have a Rhapidophyllum that is monecious, but generally they are dioecious with only one sex. The male flowers are near the tip of the inflorescence and the female flowers buried near the trunk. The plant sometimes sets seeds but they are buried by fiber and needles and are hard to get to.  Only on a couple of occassions has the plant produced viable seeds.

I'm curious to know if Rhapidophyllum grows in the UK. It is probably the most cold hardy palm on earth, but it does seem to require summer heat to grow. They also do best in part shade in my hot, dry summers.

Dick

[Nigel]

Paul, I spent quite a lot and bought the plant from Hilliers when they first appeared, it was worth every penny because it has grown into a beauty.

Most of the vulcanos we get into the nursery from Sicily seem to be quite consistent. Did you see large banks of females there ? Until now they have only sold male plants to try and hold onto their monopoly.

Dick, I have a Chamerops in my back garden that has one female trunk and the rest are male. I always considered that the palm must have been two plants together appearing as one.

I have been crossing female Trachycarpus wag with male fortunei for several years. The progeny are not normal fortuneis ,they seem to grow quite quickly and whilst being very fortunei like, they do  have something of an intermediate size leaf,so it ends up looking like a compact fortunei.

Rhapidophylum hystrix grows here very slowly, but in the right conditions can be quite beautiful. In full sun it looks yellow and spots in winter, but planted in shade and given lots of water will produce several leaves a year, and retain its leaves for several years so looks really quite nice. Mine even flowered this year for the first time.

[Carlo Morici]

(Paul S @ Feb. 25 2007,08:14)

QUOTE

The wild palm is apparently only found on a small island off the coast of northern Sicily called Vulcano (hence the name of the chamaerops variety) and it was brought into cultivation from there.  

This is a fake tale told by some nurserymen. Nobody could prove that.

I was borne and raised in front of the island of Vulcano and visited the island quite a few times. There are no wild population of Chamaerops on that island. Yes, there are wild Chamaerops on other islands of the Aeolian archipelago, but none of them looks like the compact mutants sold as 'vulcano'.

Carlo

[Nigel]

(Carlo Morici @ Feb. 25 2007,13:55)

QUOTE

This is a fake tale told by some nurserymen. Nobody could prove that.

Hahahaha , I love italian nurserymen ,soooooo many tales to throw the competition off the scent !!!

[Zac in NC]

(Carlo Morici @ Feb. 25 2007,13:55)

QUOTE

(Paul S @ Feb. 25 2007,08:14)

QUOTE

The wild palm is apparently only found on a small island off the coast of northern Sicily called Vulcano (hence the name of the chamaerops variety) and it was brought into cultivation from there.  

This is a fake tale told by some nurserymen. Nobody could prove that.

I was borne and raised in front of the island of Vulcano and visited the island quite a few times. There are no wild population of Chamaerops on that island. Yes, there are wild Chamaerops on other islands of the Aeolian archipelago, but none of them looks like the compact mutants sold as 'vulcano'.

Carlo

Interesting information Carlo. So I wonder where they "really" came from? I wonder if this was a ploy to throw off other palm enthusiasts to keep them from finding them.

Zac

[Charles Wychgel]

(Zac in NC @ Feb. 25 2007,19:21)

QUOTE

This is a fake tale told by some nurserymen. Nobody could prove that.

I was borne and raised in front of the island of Vulcano and visited the island quite a few times. There are no wild population of Chamaerops on that island. Yes, there are wild Chamaerops on other islands of the Aeolian archipelago, but none of them looks like the compact mutants sold as 'vulcano'.

Interesting information Carlo. So I wonder where they "really" came from? I wonder if this was a ploy to throw off other palm enthusiasts to keep them from finding them.

I heard C."vulcano" is an "invention" of Dutch growers.

"Homegrown" as they say in Holland.

[Nigel]

Charles,you can only buy from one company in Sicily and they produce thousands upon thousands. Female trees were removed and used for breeding stock and only males sold to stop the competition acquiring the palm.

The strange thing is this, Paul mentioned variability and yet I dont see any variability in the stock that gets sent out. I can remember the first few palms to be sold 10 or so years ago were much more variable than today, so maybe they have only just perfected the output from continued crossbreeding within the last decade ,which would indicate its only recently been perfected into a stable clone.

[Alan_Tampa]

Dick, Reasoner's I think was in Bradenton, does that seem familiar?  Sorry to pry but the local nursery, horticultural etc history is something I would like to preserve in as much detail as I can, every little bit helps.  The correct spelling of Reasoner's could be way off.

Alan

[Charles Wychgel]

(Nigel @ Feb. 25 2007,20:06)

QUOTE

Charles,you can only buy from one company in Sicily and they produce thousands upon thousands. Female trees were removed and used for breeding stock and only males sold to stop the competition acquiring the palm.

Nigel,  I bought some 15 or so young C.vulcano 6 years ago; several are female and fruiting as well now.

I seriously doubt that growers will wait with selling plants till they know if it's a female or male, if they grow them by the thousands and only sell the males, they must have a few thousand female plants taking up space in their nurseries.

It's also strange that they are not on the market anymore at least here in Portugal.