Jump to content
IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT LOGGING IN ×
  • WELCOME GUEST

    It looks as if you are viewing PalmTalk as an unregistered Guest.

    Please consider registering so as to take better advantage of our vast knowledge base and friendly community.  By registering you will gain access to many features - among them are our powerful Search feature, the ability to Private Message other Users, and be able to post and/or answer questions from all over the world. It is completely free, no “catches,” and you will have complete control over how you wish to use this site.

    PalmTalk is sponsored by the International Palm Society. - an organization dedicated to learning everything about and enjoying palm trees (and their companion plants) while conserving endangered palm species and habitat worldwide. Please take the time to know us all better and register.

    guest Renda04.jpg

Who can tell us more about Sabal "riverside"?


Sabal Steve

Recommended Posts

Don't know anything about them, but here's a pic of one from inland Southern California - had been in the ground approx 12 years at the time this was taken - gmp

post-3609-0-38434100-1391670731_thumb.jp post-3609-0-76773100-1391670746_thumb.jp

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The theory is that sabal riverside is or was a single tree somewhere in Riverside that is super fast and super hardy (15F and below). It is some sort of sabal hybrid, most likely involving bermudana, but others claim it's of Cuban descent or elsewhere in the Caribbean. I am pretty sure that most sabal riverside being propagated these days are second or third generation offsprings, so if the original tree was a hybrid, how come the offsprings don't change?

Nobody really knows, and no one has taken the time to try to get the actual origin documented properly. But I think the hybrid theory is wrong, or else it wouldn't be so consistent from generation to generation. Based on the variety of forms of sabals within single species, this sabal is probably just another form of bermudana or causiarum. It's the same issue with sabal blackburniana, which is thought to be either a different form of palmetto or a different form of dominguensis (I would side with the latter one.)

Looking at the size of Riverside and its hardiness, it's probably a form of causiarum. This photo of Riverside is one that impresses me the most, it's taken at Maxwell Stewart's house in Mobile Alabama. From the trunk form, it almost looks like a form of dominguensis.

59e7c1.jpg

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have all of these sabals. Domengensis and bermudana are not nearly as leaf hardy. They're definitely not pure forms of those. They're faster too. Leaf hardiness is comparable to uresana and causiarum. Leaf form is noticeably different from those two. I don't have a guess.

Longview, Texas :: Record Low: -5F, Feb. 16, 2021 :: Borderline 8A/8B :: '06-'07: 18F / '07-'08: 21F / '08-'09: 21F / '09-'10: 14F / '10-'11: 15F / '11-'12: 24F / '12-'13: 23F / '13-'14: 15F / '14-'15: 20F / '15-'16: 27F / '16-'17: 15F / '17-'18: 8F / '18-'19: 23F / '19-'20: 19F / '20-'21: -5F / '21-'22: 20F / '22-'23: 6F

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have all of these sabals. Domengensis and bermudana are not nearly as leaf hardy. They're definitely not pure forms of those. They're faster too. Leaf hardiness is comparable to uresana and causiarum. Leaf form is noticeably different from those two. I don't have a guess.

Yes, it's baffling! I've only posted the above as suggestions, I don't have a clue but I sure am very curious about this. But then, would you have ever guessed that sabal lisa is just a palmetto form? I guess I have more questions than answers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because is it is very difficult to distinguish sabals from one another I suspect there are many misidentified plants and thus subsequent incorrect feedback circulating around. I remember a discussion about S. causiara and S. domingensis being mixed up in an earlier survey of the palms in habitat in the D.R. Later the large paper ligules became the hallmark of causiara but then it was commented that not all populations (P. Rico versus D.R., I think) of causiara have that trait. I think I remember that some at Palomar Community College arboretum were mis-identified. Then there is the difficulty in identifying juvenile sabals with missing labels. Then there are a lots of seeds collected and sold as verified species even though they were harvested from mixed plantings without enough isolation to preclude hybridization. These errors have compounded in the palm collector and nursery realm over the years. In California there seem to be a lot of misidentified sabals and I know of a few nurseries (not palm specialists) that seem to label any sabal as palmetto. In one shipment for example I think there are S. minor 'Louisiana' (which seems more common in CA than regular forms of minor), S. palmetto, S. mexicana, and S. 'Riverside'. And I am just guessing at these IDs and will label them with question marks until they mature.

In conversation I had with Patrick Shaffer he mentioned noticing at least two, if not more, sabals circulating as S. Riverside. Probably the true Riverside, mexicana, bermudana, and dominingensis all masquerading as Riverside. And then I have received contradictorily large and small sized seeds as Riverside seeds in different orders from one vendor. They also sell S. mexicana under the old name S. texana (until I asked them to clarify that this was indeed mexicana) which I suspect has something to do with the mismatched seed sizes.

So, to make a long story longer, I consider many sabal IDs suspect, especially here out west where we don't encounter enough of them (as opposed to Florida) to have a working familiarity and confidence for their labeling.

I wonder if palmtalkers could start a "collection can/fund" to pay for the DNA tests to sort out some of the palm mysteries such as Riverside and blackburniana. How much does a genetic analysis cost? With us all pitching in maybe we could answer some of these questions.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because is it is very difficult to distinguish sabals from one another I suspect there are many misidentified plants and thus subsequent incorrect feedback circulating around. I remember a discussion about S. causiara and S. domingensis being mixed up in an earlier survey of the palms in habitat in the D.R. Later the large paper ligules became the hallmark of causiara but then it was commented that not all populations (P. Rico versus D.R., I think) of causiara have that trait. I think I remember that some at Palomar Community College arboretum were mis-identified. Then there is the difficulty in identifying juvenile sabals with missing labels. Then there are a lots of seeds collected and sold as verified species even though they were harvested from mixed plantings without enough isolation to preclude hybridization. These errors have compounded in the palm collector and nursery realm over the years. In California there seem to be a lot of misidentified sabals and I know of a few nurseries (not palm specialists) that seem to label any sabal as palmetto. In one shipment for example I think there are S. minor 'Louisiana' (which seems more common in CA than regular forms of minor), S. palmetto, S. mexicana, and S. 'Riverside'. And I am just guessing at these IDs and will label them with question marks until they mature.

In conversation I had with Patrick Shaffer he mentioned noticing at least two, if not more, sabals circulating as S. Riverside. Probably the true Riverside, mexicana, bermudana, and dominingensis all masquerading as Riverside. And then I have received contradictorily large and small sized seeds as Riverside seeds in different orders from one vendor. They also sell S. mexicana under the old name S. texana (until I asked them to clarify that this was indeed mexicana) which I suspect has something to do with the mismatched seed sizes.

So, to make a long story longer, I consider many sabal IDs suspect, especially here out west where we don't encounter enough of them (as opposed to Florida) to have a working familiarity and confidence for their labeling.

I wonder if palmtalkers could start a "collection can/fund" to pay for the DNA tests to sort out some of the palm mysteries such as Riverside and blackburniana. How much does a genetic analysis cost? With us all pitching in maybe we could answer some of these questions.

That's not a bad idea, it's not that expensive to do, there are open source DIYS kits you can buy, I've seen it done at Maker's faire, http://makerfaire.com/makers/binomica-labs/.

I agree with the suspect IDs in the average nurseries here in California. However, because there are only three sabals commonly available in commercial nurseries (riverside, bermudana and minor), the rest of the sabals are considered collector items and are usually available only from reputable collector nurseries where the ID is going to be about as good as you're gonna get anywhere. Because of the relatively common availability of bermudana, the riverside specimen is often thought to at least be a bermudana hybrid or maybe just a hardy form of bermudana, but no one knows. I think you might be right on the sabal minor, a lot of the big ones circulating in common landscape nurseries are too big and fast to be a regular minor, they're most likely Louisiana.

I got most of my sabals from reputable sources, so I am pretty confident on the IDs of them. Gary Wood has had Don Hodel visit him and set the IDs straight, and Gary Wood is the one who relayed back to me Don Hodel's switch around of causiarum and dominguensis. My sabal riverside came from Gary Wood, and so did my mexicana, dominguensis and blackurniana. I have a sabal minor that is definitely not the Louisiana version, it's too slow and too small to be the Louisiana one. I have not purchased any sabals from the average landscape nurseries. My bermudana and causiarum came from Joe Debrowski, he's one of the most reliable growers, I trust him on the labels. My sabal pumos came from Dwight

But this is what makes the sabal genus so exciting! All the subtelties and nuances are intriguing.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We spent 4 hours at 10 F a couple of weeks ago. My Riversides suffered leaf tip damage. They were completely defoliated in the 2/11 freeze, and completely regrew their heads by the end of the summer. I have also found they transplant much easier than any other Sabal. These are my largest ones:

post-972-0-48453700-1391726046_thumb.jpg post-972-0-25832900-1391726059_thumb.jpg post-972-0-53305200-1391726071_thumb.jpg post-972-0-58481900-1391726086_thumb.jpg

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Martin Farris, San Angelo, TX

San Angelo Cold Hardy Palms and Cycads

Jul - 92F/69F, Jan - 55F/31F

Lows:

02-03: 18F;

03-04: 19F;

04-05: 17F;

05-06: 11F;

06-07: 13F;

07-08: 14F 147.5 Freezing Degree-Hours http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?sh...ee+hours\;

08-09: 23F;

09-10: 12F 467.6 Freezing Degree Hours, Average Temperature During Freeze 24.2F;

10-11: 13F 1,059.5 Freezing Degree Hours with Strong Winds/Rain/Snow/Sleet, Average Temperature During Freeze 19.4F;

Record low -4F in 1989 (High of 36F that p.m.) 1,125.2 freezing degree hours, Average Temperature During Freeze 13.6F;

Record Freeze 1983: 2,300.3 Freezing Degree Hours with a low of 5F, Average Temperature During Freeze 13.7F.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW, I have found the seed to vary in size from tree to tree for some reason even though otherwise they all look similar. Possibly because of them being cross pollinated by other Sabal species growing nearby?

Martin Farris, San Angelo, TX

San Angelo Cold Hardy Palms and Cycads

Jul - 92F/69F, Jan - 55F/31F

Lows:

02-03: 18F;

03-04: 19F;

04-05: 17F;

05-06: 11F;

06-07: 13F;

07-08: 14F 147.5 Freezing Degree-Hours http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?sh...ee+hours\;

08-09: 23F;

09-10: 12F 467.6 Freezing Degree Hours, Average Temperature During Freeze 24.2F;

10-11: 13F 1,059.5 Freezing Degree Hours with Strong Winds/Rain/Snow/Sleet, Average Temperature During Freeze 19.4F;

Record low -4F in 1989 (High of 36F that p.m.) 1,125.2 freezing degree hours, Average Temperature During Freeze 13.6F;

Record Freeze 1983: 2,300.3 Freezing Degree Hours with a low of 5F, Average Temperature During Freeze 13.7F.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW, I have found the seed to vary in size from tree to tree for some reason even though otherwise they all look similar. Possibly because of them being cross pollinated by other Sabal species growing nearby?

I've read that Sabals rarely hybridize because the flowers contain both male parts and female parts (bisexual), decreasing the chances of cross pollination.

  • Upvote 1

Los Angeles, CA and Myrtle Beach, SC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

The DNA test thing sounds good. A lot of info is available in Sabal but even that has been changed as we understand them more. yapa and maritiiformis are the leading candidates for easy to tell apart for me but even then my friend and I disagree on that. I bet I have miss named many Sabal over time.

The Sabal I have seem in Cali seem like a whole different group of species until you get the hang of it because they grow so different in different climates.

I DIG PALMS

Call me anytime to chat about transplanting palms.

305-345-8918

https://www.facebook...KenJohnsonPalms

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They really did it is crazy. If you give them a little heat they almost become a totally different palm. There are allot of Sabals that need a paternity test reallly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

For what it's worth, I collected a few seeds from a plant that Phil Bergman labeled as S. riverside from Morley Field (in/near Balboa Park).attachicon.gif2014-03-07 22.38.38.jpg

The.seeds are fairly small, just.slightly bigger than palmetto.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From my most resent research those look like the seeds of Sabal Riverside, they are larger than those of Sabal Palmetto but look somewhat similar in other regards. I really think that you have the real thing Steve.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From my most resent research those look like the seeds of Sabal Riverside, they are larger than those of Sabal Palmetto but look somewhat similar in other regards. I really think that you have the real thing Steve.

These seeds, or the other potential S. riverside from the other thread?

I have to agree with you in that the large Sabal that I grabbed seeds from previously fit the bill for riverside. These seeds are slightly smaller than the other seeds that I first collected - but otherwise uniform in appearance. Also, these trunks seemed more slender, but, they were no longer booted. I'll post a pic of those trees too. Phil Bergman stated that many of the S. riversides floting around came from those trees at Morley Field. Do you think that that there are any appreciable differences within riverside?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really do just because I know how diverse other sabal species can be at times. Take Sabal Palmetto for example; it can vary greatly in appearance and its seeds can also be different sizes from tree to tree. This is really not that unusual however if we consider other members of the plant world. The seed of a Sabal are its fruit and fruit are often different sizes and shapes on different fruit bearing trees even other palms. My Parajubaea Sunkha seeds are all different sizes. It is crazy really, some were almost twice the size of others. It is the same with Syagrus Rom. and other palms. Date palms seem to be more consistent for some reason; I am saying this because I have about 6,000 phoenix dactylifera in two five gallon buckets soaking about three feet from me now. This may be because they have been cultivated for thousands of years to bear consistently sized and shaped fruits however; a great deal to think about really. Your riverside look legit; I trust Phil. He has been an inspiration to me since the mid 90's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a pic from Riverside. The owner got it from a grower in riverside 25 years ago, possibly the original owner. Seeds were larger than palmetto.... there's an earlier thread with seed pics... I'll see if I can find it.

post-33-0-99248700-1394594983_thumb.jpg

  • Upvote 1

Dave

 

Riverside, CA Z 9b

1700 ft. elevation

approx 40 miles inland

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...