ZONE 8 AND 9 CANOPY TREES

[Tropicdoc]

I know people have talked about magnolia already..... but check out this 'Goliath' cultivar. I can't find this one for sale anywhere.

[Tropicdoc]

Man, I looked at some pics of mature Ilex rotunda..... looks like a Ficus benjamina! Wish I could find some seeds or seedlings. That would make a nice jungle canopy.

[Alicehunter2000]

NOW THAT'S A MAGNOLIA!

[_Keith]

No

NOW THAT'S A MAGNOLIA!

We have quite a few larger than that in this area, some much larger. One thing about Magnolias though. Notice how nothing is growing under it. That is probably not from herbicide. They are notorious for things not growing underneath them.

[Tropicdoc]

Another pearl from Keith!

[Alicehunter2000]

Do you think it is from the shade it produces or something else.....I just planted 4 on the north side of my fence line.....hope I don't have issues with palms nearby.

BTW....yes we have bigger ones here as well...but that one has that weird knobby/ hobbit dwelling thing going on....don't see that too much.

[_Keith]

Copied from another site: Allelopathy is associated with magnolias. This is likely a survival mechanism developed by the tree to prevent root competition. For this reason growing plants beneath is usually not successful. Too, the steady dropping of leaves and debris naturally accumulates a nice layer of organic mulch beneath the tree to help feed the soil on an ongoing basis. The best approach is to leave the area beneath the tree mulched rather than battle the deep shade, dense roots, and allelopathy.

[stevethegator]

Do you think it is from the shade it produces or something else.....I just planted 4 on the north side of my fence line.....hope I don't have issues with palms nearby.

Large magnolias drop leaves like crazy; they're big, thick and decompose slowly creating an impenetrable mat underneath them. I imagine when they do decompose they alter the soil chemistry as well but I'm not sure. They also have surface roots that spread out far and wide from the base and probably suck a lot of water/nutrients.

But, don't worry too much about any of that. They have to be very large to smother out what's underneath them and that will take awhile. Plus, they do take to pruning so you can manage their size.

[Josh76]

Man, I looked at some pics of mature Ilex rotunda..... looks like a Ficus benjamina! Wish I could find some seeds or seedlings. That would make a nice jungle canopy.

ColdPlant have seeds in stock - just US$5 for 30 seeds:

http://price.coldplant.com/Category/Ilex_rotunda.html

I just ordered some

[Josh76]

I take it back... just got an email from Garry saying that Ilex rotunda is currently sold out

[Eric in Orlando]

I thought of another one, Xylosma congestum. It is evergreen and fast growing. Nice small glossy leaves. Drought tolerant too. Has a nice weeping habit. 15-20 ft. Disney uses them as large screening shrubs and small trees. Monrovia grows them.

Here is one at Leu Gardens. The photo is older, tree is a bit larger and denser.

[Silas_Sancona]

Eric, great picture, not used to seeing this species look so nice. Back in Ca, id usually tell people to pull them out. Just never looked good and seemed to slowly die out. As for the Aussie Acacias, any thoughts on species that might succeed here.

That Magnolia is incredable but yes, larger specimens are impossible to garden under. Leaves would take forever to deteriorate in a compost pile. Pods were favortie weapons as a kid though, lol.

-Nathan-

[Alicehunter2000]

I think its pretty difficult to garden under big oaks as well, seems not much grows underneath them....same with pines.

[Silas_Sancona]

David,

That is very true. Back in Ca, most people would plant wildflowers or some super tough ground cover, or just leave the area under them bare. At least under the native live oaks there. I have noticed that a lot of bromeliads do great under the live oaks here.

-Nathan-

[Alicehunter2000]

Did I make a huge mistake planting magnolia's as a windbreak to the north.....do I need to rip them out before they get started?

[stevethegator]

How far away are they from the palms? I see magnolias as screening plants for small lots here in metro Atlanta all the time with plenty of things growing around them. Problems arise if you let them achieve live oak status, like many do as a specimen tree in their front lawns. They're beautiful that way, just hard to garden under.

You can keep them trimmed, and rake the leaves. They're not rocket ship fast growing either. I wouldn't rip them out, but maybe others can comment

[Silas_Sancona]

I would't either, just keep them trimmed. If they're a smaller variety like little gem,, they should'nt become an issue.

-Nathan-

[Alicehunter2000]

So it is not the roots that produce the chemicals?

[Tropicdoc]

I would imagine that bromeliads do well under oaks because they are displaced epiphytes. The live oak provides nice frost protection. Ferns do well too. I chose live oaks because they are native and the leaves are easier to deal with than magnolias. It will be 10-20 years before I have a nice canopy though. I do like the look of that goliath magnolia though. Rainforest trees have shallow roots and palms grow near them, so it can't be impossible.

[Eric in Orlando]

I have never had any problem growing under Southern Live Oaks. They are the best "tropical rainforest" tree here. Old ones are covered in Spanish Moss, other Tillandsias, resurrection ferns and sometimes native orchids. They are evergreen and are the best frost and freeze protection. The big trunks are excellent for tropical climbing aroids. The small leaves make great mulch.

Older big Southern Magnolias, different story !!!

[stevethegator]

So it is not the roots that produce the chemicals?

Did a little research: Magnolias do exhibit "allelopathy" which is the production of chemicals which hinder the growth of other plants. Couldn't find whether these chemicals were released by the roots, most websites recommended clearing the dead leaves as a remedy.

Magnolias are commonly used as screening plants though, and I see them everywhere in gardens with a lot of different plants growing in close proximity. As long as you aren't trying to grow things directly next to the trunks of these trees and you keep the old leaves raked you should be fine I would think

[Alicehunter2000]

Eric...If I had oaks that were hundreds of years old and looked like this

then I would agree. Unfortunately most of us, especially 50 year olds like myself, don't have time to wait for the canopy. You are very fortunate that where you work (Leu Gardens) has such beautiful oak canopy. I always envy yards up here in the panhandle with those beautiful ancient oaks.

Thanks for the advice on the magnolias...this weekend I am going to move 3 of the 4 trees planted along the fence several more feet away. Since Magnolia's are fairly slow also, there should not be much to worry about for many years, especially if I keep them trimmed away from the fenceline and the leaves out of the yard. It should help as a windbreak.

[Eric in Orlando]

That Southern Live Oak is appx 300 years old !

[Alicehunter2000]

Ok...the guy from Lowes just called...they can't get either the Podocarpus nor the Japanese Blueberry tree......even though it is on their website.

He said his vendors that he buys from can't get them in this part of Florida........Geez, are we living in the 21st century?

This sucks..........back to square one.

[ricky]

hi david have you checked any of the cupressus out Cupressus cashmeriana is a great looking tree http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/65178/ also have you considered hybrid poplars as there some of the fastest growing trees and should fit in with a exotic garden with large glossy leaf or cedrus deodara or some of the hardy timber bamboos

[Alicehunter2000]

Cool looking weeping evergreen. Also really checked out Eric's various oaks. This area basically sucks for growing anything tropical looking and evergreen. Most things require either warmer temps (zone 10 or higher) or less humidity. Nothing is available that will grow fast enough and is not super common around here. I'm left with Loquats (slow growing, takes a long time to really get big), Citrus (same thing), Magnolia's ( hard to plant underneath), Live oaks ( not interesting and super common when they are small). Anything unusual, is not available....may as well plant from seed and wait 20 years....by then my palms will probably still be taller than the "canopy"...........did I say this area sucks?

May need to stick a couple of more big Phoenix palms in. The one big one I got provides canopy for about a fifth of the yard...lol. Just need a few thousand dollars. lol.

[Xenon]

Montezuma cypress (Taxodium mucronatum) is promising...evergreen, dark green foliage, fast growth rate, long-lived

[_Keith]

Live Oaks grow pretty fast when young.

[Alicehunter2000]

Taxodium mucronatum Are they really evergreen? or will they lose foliage in a frost? It might be a contender if I could find them for sale.

[Xenon]

"The Montezuma cypress, native to Mexico, is a much faster grower than the bald cypress or the pond cypress. It is a huge tree that can grow to more than 100 feet tall and is substantially evergreen. It is riparian, occurring near lakes, streams and rivers, not in swamps like the Bald and Pond cypress, nor does it produce "knees" from the roots."

http://www.chron.com/life/gardening/article/Fast-growing-trees-1842919.php

[Eric in Orlando]

It depends on how much cold you get. The few I see around here held about 75% foliage until about a month ago. They are probably 80% bare now.

[Alicehunter2000]

Ok...back to square one....I think I should dig up and transplant some Sweet Bay Magnolia (Magnolia virginiana) ...it fits the bill. Will this cause the same issues as M. grandiflora with the allelopathy?

[WestCoastGal]

I located this info from your locale that might be helpful regarding the Magnolia viginiana. Still doesn't specifically address the chemical aspect but I did notice that it was rated as having a low areosole salt tolerance and rates poor on soil salt tolerance. I know you live a block or so from the ocean so thinking it might be of consequence.

http://hort.ufl.edu/database/documents/pdf/tree_fact_sheets/magvira.pdf

[Alicehunter2000]

Strange....because it also says this.....

"Sweetbay Magnolia roots easily from softwood

cuttings, grows freely near coastal areas, and is

happiest in southern climates"

I watched today driving into work, and it appears that it is not as common on the Panama City Beach as in Panama City. However I did see some around 1/2 mile or so from the beach. It really appears to me that the wild growing ones are near freshwater swamps, ponds etc. Luckily, the area that I live has a lot of freshwater near the beach. In fact it is one of the few areas of the world that have "Coastal Dune Lakes". The backside of my property is near a relatively swampy area even though I am 30 ft. above sea level.

After work today, I walked around back of the warehouse where there is a swampy area. I did not see any Sweet Bay but I did see several Southern Magnolia's growing wild. I do not want these, so will try to go further back into the property when I have more light and better shoes. All was not in vain today as I found a really nice 6 ft. tall clump of green Nandina growing wild. It had a bit of red on it, but I'm thinking that where it is growing has too much shade to really bring out the colors. I will dig it out and transplant it to the yard soon.

[Halekuma]

Which species could be a better canopy tree between California Live Oak (quercus agrifolia) and Cork oak (quercus suber) in a place with high winds?? Also which one would have faster growth??

[WestCoastGal]

"Grows freely near coastal areas"....I'm guessing the determining factor is how close to the coast or inland the tree will be planted.

I found this Virginia State U. Extension website that lists trees (deciduous and evergreen) that tolerate saline soil and salt spray drifts. It does list both Sweet Magnolia and Southern Magnolias. The Southern Magnolia has tolerance for both conditions, whereas the Sweet Magnolia is only listed for soil tolerance. After reading the article, I'm assuming that due to the amount of rainfall you receive there, a higher saline soil would be tolerable. The salt spray however could be the determing factor for you. Might explain why so close to the ocean you are just seeing the Southern Magnolia and not the Sweet variety.

The site also shows photos depicting the damage done by salty conditions. Perhaps the list has something else on it that is worth considering.

http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/430/430-031/430-031.html

[Alicehunter2000]

Nice investigative work. I'm far enough away and high enough above the beach that salt spray is not as much of an issue. That being said, I imagine there is some salt in the air. I'm going to try and check out some dune lake areas this weekend to see if any can be spotted. The more I look at these trees around town, the more I like them. They are tall, narrow, nice looking whitish trunk not too dense and evergreen. Sometimes the answer to landscape questions can be found in your own native areas.

Also found out that Japanese Blueberry Trees are sold by the same place I got most of my big Palms...Fishbranch. So that is always something to think about getting possibly....just don't care for pyramid shaped trees...too much like cold weather and Christmas trees.

[Alicehunter2000]

Thoughts some pictures were in order.........

These trees get much taller than those pictured

[stevethegator]

Yeah magnolia virginiana is a nice tree, they stand out in central Florida during the Summer when they're blooming all over the natural areas. Definitely on my list if I ever own a garden in zone 7-8

[Eric in Orlando]

Elaeocarpus doesn't naturally grow as a pyramid. They have a nice spreading habit. Anal retentive shearing mindset nurseries hack them into pyramids, just like East Palatka and Savannah Hollies. Here are some at Disney at Magic Kingdom and EPCOT