Phoenix sylvestris in California

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

What? Phoenix? Not a dypsis thread?

I have a pretty good sized Phoenix sylvestris that I was considering planting. I can't seem to find any decent pictures of any growing in California, and I wonder why there aren't any around. I refuse to plant a canary date palm because it's a host to too many diseases, but I do have a solid interest in the phoenix genus. I am just on the fence when it comes to this species. The one I have is gray-silver, it's about as pure silvestris as they come. (From RPS seed.)

What makes me hesitate is that this thing is the pokiest nastiest phoenix I've ever seen, so seeing a decent picture of a larger trunking one might get me more motivated. Most of the Florida ones I've seen don't look like true silvestris as they are all way too dark green to be pure.

[Phoenikakias]

Axel, if you do not like their appearance, I will gladly take over your sylvestris. BTW have you observed whether your seedling have been producing a deeper and more aggressive root system than other spss of the genus?

[Sabal Steve]

I have one that is about 4 feet tall that is planted in between my deck, and a 6 foot fence, with Southern exposure. It's about as cuddly as a barrel cactus. The spot that it's in will keep it out of the way till it gets bigger. It's only been in the ground for about 4 months, so I'll have to give an update next year.

This is where it went, I'll try to add a picture of it planted later.

[KennyRE317]

I don't know what's up with palmtalk but I can't post images or links .....

go to google maps and search Cerritos, ca it should take you to South St. find the 605 freeway that's most likely west of where google maps puts you and then go east a couple of blocks. Cerritos has a bunch of of them planted in that area there's also quite a few royals if you go east on South St. toward Pioneer

[Sabal Steve]

I don't know what the mystery pipe is, nor do I care. I'm thinking an old gas line. It looks a little tight, but there is about 3 feet there, and I doubt that the trunk will ever get that wide. Once it starts to get big, It will share some real estate from my neighbor - like most of my palms.

Dypsis threads bore me, (sorry everyone) I rarely read them. I don't find the many nuances too interesting. That being said, I do have a few (Leptichilos, Baronii, Arenarum, Ambositre), as I think every palm lover should.

Phoenix is an excellent genus, with Rupicola and Sylvestris being my favorites. There are a few exotics that are awesome within the genus. As much as I see them, I still think Canaries are one of the best palms ever. Most neglected Canaries look better than manicured garden specimens or other species of palms... I do wish people would stop planting Robelenii everywhere though.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Sabal Steve

[turfpro01]

I have several dozen in 15g pots, Hard to tell them from canary island dates at the moment. I plan to field grow them, I love the way they look in photos ive seen. I know where there is a few over grown 25g ones rooted into the ground, trunking. Not as impressive as I thought they would be. But do look nice.

You should look at phoenix humilis, I just picked up a few 25g and they have some nice silver leaves, But grow slow.

[Sabal Steve]

Phoenix "Loureirii" var. Humilis? What is the distinction between these and the roebelenii x reclinata?

[turfpro01]

Yes I meant Phoenix Loureirii var. Humilis. I don't understand what it has to do with roebelenii x reclinata?

The p. loureirii humilis I saw were non suckering

[Phoenikakias]

I have several dozen in 15g pots, Hard to tell them from canary island dates at the moment. I plan to field grow them, I love the way they look in photos ive seen. I know where there is a few over grown 25g ones rooted into the ground, trunking. Not as impressive as I thought they would be. But do look nice.

You should look at phoenix humilis, I just picked up a few 25g and they have some nice silver leaves, But grow slow.

Phoenix "Loureirii" var. Humilis? What is the distinction between these and the roebelenii x reclinata?

Yes I meant Phoenix Loureirii var. Humilis. I don't understand what it has to do with roebelenii x reclinata?

The p. loureirii humilis I saw were non suckering

Yet also Phoenix l var humilis suckers, albeit very randomly and suckers either wont live long or are very slow growers. Pics a.s.a.p.. I am very glad that at last we have a topic about this very overlooked genus Also comparison pictures with hybrid roebeleni x reclinata a.s.a.p.!

[Sabal Steve]

Well,

These are a few pics posted by Geoff Stien on "Dave's Garden" (which I know Axel follows as well). I agree with Geoff, they look strikingly similar to a reclinata x roebelenii. Here are a few pictures that illustrate my thoughts. Perhaps a little more roebelenii than anything... Again, what is the distinction between the two (reclinata x roebelenii and Phoenix loureirii var. humilis (other than a silver tinge))?

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/56869/

Edited January 3, 2014 by Sabal Steve

[Sabal Steve]

On another thread "Eric in Orlando" posted a few pics of a reclinata x roebelenii. http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/35087-nice-specimen-of-phoenix-reclinata-x-roebelenii/

Edited January 3, 2014 by Sabal Steve

[Phoenikakias]

I have a feeling this is gonna be a very hot topic Steve, take a look at both links and tell me which one corresponds better the description of Phoenix loureiroi http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/529/ (part about Loureiroi) and http://e-monocot.org/taxon/urn:kew.org:wcs:taxon:152688 To tell the truth I have two specimens as loureiroi and hanceana, which fit best to the description given by Geoff in the first link than the one of Kews.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Phoenikakias

[Sabal Steve]

The Kew link won't open.

[Sabal Steve]

And now Phoenix hanceana... Overload... Although, I did see a palm that looked similar (at lease in leaflet structure/grouping/number, to Phoenix hanceana at the Palomar Arboretum, at Palomar College in San Marcos, CA.

[Sabal Steve]

And now Phoenix hanceana... Overload... Although, I did see a palm that looked similar (at lease in leaflet structure/grouping/number, to Phoenix hanceana at the Palomar Arboretum, at Palomar College in San Marcos, CA.

Here is a list of Phoenix sp. (as well as total palm species) that they list as having;

1. P. canariensis Canary Island Date Palm (Canary Islands) PAL
2. P. hanceana (P. loureirii) India & China: Similar in appearance to P. roebelenii
3. P. reclinata Senegal Date Palm (Tropical Africa)
4. P. roebelenii Pigmy Date Palm (S.E. Asia) M-21 PAL
5. P. rupicola (India)
6. P. theophrasti Cretan Date Palm (Greece & Turkey) Resembles P. dactylifera PAL
7. P. zeylanica Ceylon Date Palm (Sri Lanka)

1. ARECACEAE: PALM FAMILY See Palm Garden: PAL On Map

2. Acoelorrhaphe wrightii Everglades Palm (Florida) M-15 PAL
3. Archontophoenix alexandrae Alexandra Palm (N. Queensland)
4. A. cunninghamiana King Palm (Australia) M-22
5. Beccariophoenix alfredii High Plateau Coconut Palm (Madagascar) Near queen palm
6. Bismarckia nobilis Bismark Palm (Madagascar) [incl. silver form.]
7. Brahea armata Mexican Blue Palm (Baja California) M-6
8. B. brandegeei San Jose Hesper Palm (Baja California)
9. B. edulis Guadalupe Palm (Guadalupe Island) M-10 PAL
10. B. elegans (Mexico)
11. B. nitida (Mexico) M-13
12. Butia capitata Jelly Palm (S. America) M-3
13. Caryota gigas Giant Fishtail Palm (Thailand)
14. C. urens Fishtail Palm (S.E. Asia) M-7 PAL
15. Chamaerops humilis Mediterranean Fan Palm (Mediterranean) PAL
16. C. humilis var. cerifera Blue Mediterranean Fan Palm (Mediterranean)
17. Copernicia alba Carnaday Wax Palm (S. America)
18. Dypsis decipiens Manambe Palm (Madagascar)
19. D. lastelliana Teddy Bear Palm (Madagascar) PAL
20. Jubaea chilensis Chilean Wine Palm (Chile) See Chilean Wine Palm
21. Livistona australis Cabbage Palm (E. Australia)
22. L. chinensis Fountain Palm (S. Japan) M-8 PAL
23. L. decipiens (Australia)
24. L. drudei (Australia)
25. L. mariae (australia)
26. L. saribus (syn. L. hoogendorpii) Taraw Palm (S.E. Asia) PAL
27. Neodypsis decaryi (Dypsis decaryi) Triangle Palm (Madagascar) M-9 PAL
28. Parajubaea torallyi Bolivian Mtn. Coconut (Bolivia, Ecuador) Grows at 3400 m in Andes!
29. Phoenix canariensis Canary Island Date Palm (Canary Islands) PAL
30. P. hanceana (P. loureirii) India & China: Similar in appearance to P. roebelenii
31. P. reclinata Senegal Date Palm (Tropical Africa)
32. P. roebelenii Pigmy Date Palm (S.E. Asia) M-21 PAL
33. P. rupicola (India)
34. P. theophrasti Cretan Date Palm (Greece & Turkey) Resembles P. dactylifera PAL
35. P. zeylanica Ceylon Date Palm (Sri Lanka)
36. Raphia australis (South Africa)
37. Ravenea rivularis Magesty Palm (Madagascar)
38. Rhapis excelsa Lady Palm (China)
39. Rhopalostylis sapida Shaving Brush Palm (Norfolk Islands & New Zealand)
40. Sabal causiarum Puerto Rican Hat Palm (Puerto Rico) M-2 PAL
41. S. etonia Scrub Palmetto (Florida)
42. S. minor Dwarf Palmetto
43. S. palmetto Cabbage Palm (Florida)?
44. S. uresana Sonoran Palmetto (Mexico) Near Cassia leptophylla
45. S. yapa? Sabal (W. Cuba, Yucatan, Belize)
46. Serenoa repens Saw Palmetto (Florida) PAL
47. Syagrus picrophylla (South America; Brazil)
48. S. (Arecastrum) romanzoffiana Queen Palm (S. Brazil to Argentina) M-5 PAL
49. S. schizophylla Arikury Palm (Brazil)
50. Trachycarpus fortunei Windmill Palm (Burma & China)
51. Trithrinax acanthocoma (Brazil) M-4 PAL
52. Washingtonia robusta Mexican Fan Palm
53. Wodyetia bifurcata Foxtail Palm (N.E. Australia)

[Sabal Steve]

And now Phoenix hanceana... Overload... Although, I did see a palm that looked similar (at lease in leaflet structure/grouping/number, to Phoenix hanceana at the Palomar Arboretum, at Palomar College in San Marcos, CA.

Here is a list of Phoenix sp. (as well as total palm species) that they list as having;

1. P. canariensis Canary Island Date Palm (Canary Islands) PAL
2. P. hanceana (P. loureirii) India & China: Similar in appearance to P. roebelenii
3. P. reclinata Senegal Date Palm (Tropical Africa)
4. P. roebelenii Pigmy Date Palm (S.E. Asia) M-21 PAL
5. P. rupicola (India)
6. P. theophrasti Cretan Date Palm (Greece & Turkey) Resembles P. dactylifera PAL
7. P. zeylanica Ceylon Date Palm (Sri Lanka)

1. ARECACEAE: PALM FAMILY See Palm Garden: PAL On Map

2. Acoelorrhaphe wrightii Everglades Palm (Florida) M-15 PAL
3. Archontophoenix alexandrae Alexandra Palm (N. Queensland)
4. A. cunninghamiana King Palm (Australia) M-22
5. Beccariophoenix alfredii High Plateau Coconut Palm (Madagascar) Near queen palm
6. Bismarckia nobilis Bismark Palm (Madagascar) [incl. silver form.]
7. Brahea armata Mexican Blue Palm (Baja California) M-6
8. B. brandegeei San Jose Hesper Palm (Baja California)
9. B. edulis Guadalupe Palm (Guadalupe Island) M-10 PAL
10. B. elegans (Mexico)
11. B. nitida (Mexico) M-13
12. Butia capitata Jelly Palm (S. America) M-3
13. Caryota gigas Giant Fishtail Palm (Thailand)
14. C. urens Fishtail Palm (S.E. Asia) M-7 PAL
15. Chamaerops humilis Mediterranean Fan Palm (Mediterranean) PAL
16. C. humilis var. cerifera Blue Mediterranean Fan Palm (Mediterranean)
17. Copernicia alba Carnaday Wax Palm (S. America)
18. Dypsis decipiens Manambe Palm (Madagascar)
19. D. lastelliana Teddy Bear Palm (Madagascar) PAL
20. Jubaea chilensis Chilean Wine Palm (Chile) See Chilean Wine Palm
21. Livistona australis Cabbage Palm (E. Australia)
22. L. chinensis Fountain Palm (S. Japan) M-8 PAL
23. L. decipiens (Australia)
24. L. drudei (Australia)
25. L. mariae (australia)
26. L. saribus (syn. L. hoogendorpii) Taraw Palm (S.E. Asia) PAL
27. Neodypsis decaryi (Dypsis decaryi) Triangle Palm (Madagascar) M-9 PAL
28. Parajubaea torallyi Bolivian Mtn. Coconut (Bolivia, Ecuador) Grows at 3400 m in Andes!
29. Phoenix canariensis Canary Island Date Palm (Canary Islands) PAL
30. P. hanceana (P. loureirii) India & China: Similar in appearance to P. roebelenii
31. P. reclinata Senegal Date Palm (Tropical Africa)
32. P. roebelenii Pigmy Date Palm (S.E. Asia) M-21 PAL
33. P. rupicola (India)
34. P. theophrasti Cretan Date Palm (Greece & Turkey) Resembles P. dactylifera PAL
35. P. zeylanica Ceylon Date Palm (Sri Lanka)
36. Raphia australis (South Africa)
37. Ravenea rivularis Magesty Palm (Madagascar)
38. Rhapis excelsa Lady Palm (China)
39. Rhopalostylis sapida Shaving Brush Palm (Norfolk Islands & New Zealand)
40. Sabal causiarum Puerto Rican Hat Palm (Puerto Rico) M-2 PAL
41. S. etonia Scrub Palmetto (Florida)
42. S. minor Dwarf Palmetto
43. S. palmetto Cabbage Palm (Florida)?
44. S. uresana Sonoran Palmetto (Mexico) Near Cassia leptophylla
45. S. yapa? Sabal (W. Cuba, Yucatan, Belize)
46. Serenoa repens Saw Palmetto (Florida) PAL
47. Syagrus picrophylla (South America; Brazil)
48. S. (Arecastrum) romanzoffiana Queen Palm (S. Brazil to Argentina) M-5 PAL
49. S. schizophylla Arikury Palm (Brazil)
50. Trachycarpus fortunei Windmill Palm (Burma & China)
51. Trithrinax acanthocoma (Brazil) M-4 PAL
52. Washingtonia robusta Mexican Fan Palm
53. Wodyetia bifurcata Foxtail Palm (N.E. Australia)

I find it fitting that S. yapa was the only palm that they were unsure about...

[Alicehunter2000]

Found this old picture of my previous house. This palm later became absolutely gorgeous..well above the roofline now..wish I could find a pic. Got the palm from Albert Livingston in Homestead, Florida below Miami. ...sylvestris are great palms.

[grant b.]

Axel,

can you grow rupicola up there? I think it's gotta be my favorite species within the genus. they have pretty nasty spines as well, but the fronds are soft and very tropical looking.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Axel,

can you grow rupicola up there? I think it's gotta be my favorite species within the genus. they have pretty nasty spines as well, but the fronds are soft and very tropical looking.

Rupicola is hands down my favorite phoenix species. I have three of them. I also have Rupicola x roebelini, looks pretty cool. Someone gave me a reclinata x roebelini. I am still waiting to see what form it will take.

[redant]

Trimming a mature Phoenix sylvestris is pretty much a nightmare because the density of the crown, no room to get above the frond to cut.. I have about 10 on my property, love the look but this is the only palm I have that I hire out to have trimmed when mature.

[sonoranfans]

Axel,

can you grow rupicola up there? I think it's gotta be my favorite species within the genus. they have pretty nasty spines as well, but the fronds are soft and very tropical looking.

Rupicola spines are not very rigid, they are the least injurious of all phoenix. I have a triple that is easy to trim and it is easily my favorite phoenix, very tropical and lush looking. I have 3 sylvestris, 2 are pretty close to pure, the third is too thick of trunk and wide of crown to be pure. they are all silver green and have the nastiest thorns of any palm I have. Sylvestris even stab you with the leaflet tips, I periodically consider removing them after a stab. Phoenix sylvestris is the fastest growing phoenix I have seen, and I have grown them in both Arizona and florida from texas grown seedlings(save my one hybrid which was a florida purchase). I have seen these go from 3 gallon 18" seedling to 6' overall in 2 years in the ground. they do love heat and lots of sun to grow their best. Adult sylvestris hold MANY leaves, more than one hundred. I trim them with a pole trimmer to prevent serious injury. Once they get tall, I'm not sure what I will do(hence I think of removing them periodically). On the plus side they are pretty cold hardy palms and all those leaves make for beautiful crowns.

[Phoenikakias]

Trimming a mature Phoenix sylvestris is pretty much a nightmare because the density of the crown, no room to get above the frond to cut.. I have about 10 on my property, love the look but this is the only palm I have that I hire out to have trimmed when mature.

Axel,

can you grow rupicola up there? I think it's gotta be my favorite species within the genus. they have pretty nasty spines as well, but the fronds are soft and very tropical looking.

Rupicola spines are not very rigid, they are the least injurious of all phoenix. I have a triple that is easy to trim and it is easily my favorite phoenix, very tropical and lush looking. I have 3 sylvestris, 2 are pretty close to pure, the third is too thick of trunk and wide of crown to be pure. they are all silver green and have the nastiest thorns of any palm I have. Sylvestris even stab you with the leaflet tips, I periodically consider removing them after a stab. Phoenix sylvestris is the fastest growing phoenix I have seen, and I have grown them in both Arizona and florida from texas grown seedlings(save my one hybrid which was a florida purchase). I have seen these go from 3 gallon 18" seedling to 6' overall in 2 years in the ground. they do love heat and lots of sun to grow their best. Adult sylvestris hold MANY leaves, more than one hundred. I trim them with a pole trimmer to prevent serious injury. Once they get tall, I'm not sure what I will do(hence I think of removing them periodically). On the plus side they are pretty cold hardy palms and all those leaves make for beautiful crowns.

Tom, you agree that sylvestris among all Phoenix spss has the most deeply penetrating root system? BTW has it ever occured to you from an f1b hybridization of an apparently hybrid male reclinata with a pure female reclinata to get an almost precisely looking alike sylvestris?

Redant, I never trim old fronds from above, instead always from beneath.

BTW does male sylvestris produce fragrant flowers like dactylifera?

Edited January 3, 2014 by Phoenikakias

[MattyB]

Here's P. sylvestris in my neighbor's yard. I have one that is doing great on my hillside as well, but it's only about 6 feet tall.

[grant b.]

Rupicola is hands down my favorite phoenix species. I have three of them. I also have Rupicola x roebelini, looks pretty cool. Someone gave me a reclinata x roebelini. I am still waiting to see what form it will take.

Rupicola x roebelini? haven't seen or heard of this cross before. did you cross this one yourself? does it sucker like true roebelinis? id love to see pictures if you have them.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Here's P. sylvestris in my neighbor's yard. I have one that is doing great on my hillside as well, but it's only about 6 feet tall.

Screamind DoomsDave obscenities!

Well, I found a spot next to a plectocomia Himalaya. It's out of the way.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Rupicola is hands down my favorite phoenix species. I have three of them. I also have Rupicola x roebelini, looks pretty cool. Someone gave me a reclinata x roebelini. I am still waiting to see what form it will take.

Rupicola x roebelini? haven't seen or heard of this cross before. did you cross this one yourself? does it sucker like true roebelinis? id love to see pictures if you have them.

I've never seen a suckering roebelini.

Here is the rupicola x roebelini, looks more like a regular rupicola to me, but it's got a little of the roebelini look to it. This one is getting planted today. I don't care if it's actually just a rupicola, it's a beautiful specimen!

Here is the sylvestris and loureiri: the sylvestris is the larger specimen on the left, the ends of the leaflets are sharp and pokey. The loureiri on the right is much softe, but both do have spines. The loureiroi is supposed to be var. pedunculata, the suckering kind, but I see no suckers so far. Both of these are getting planted today, they're extremely root bound and difficult to water in the pot. The sylvestris is going into my thorny palm section where no one ventures these days due to the hazards already there.

Here is the reclinata x roebelini, this one is supposed to sucker, but I've not seen any suckers yet. I am waiting to see what the overall form will be before I plant it.

[Ben in Norcal]

A little off topic, but where do you get your palms in the Bay Area, Axel? Outside of Flora Grubb and the odd interesting find up at Palm Island in Vacaville, I haven't found too much of interest. Needless to say it is seldom that anything outside of Mexican fans, Queens, and Fortunei show up at the big box stores.

[grant b.]

well Axel, if your rupicola hybrid doesn't turn out to be a cross, its still a nice looking tree. rupicolas have a tendency to yellow out when young but yours is quite green.

as for the suckering roebeleniis, check out the description on Jungle Music: http://www.junglemusic.net/articles/the_pygmy_date_palm/thepygmydatepalm.html

phil typed out a really nice description of the species.

[Phoenikakias]

Axel, your reclinata X roebeleni hybrid is from reclinata seeds? I have crossed also female reclinata with pollen from roebeleni and resulted plants have up to now very soft leaves (even eophylle had been soft) and pinnae on first and second pinnate frond are evenly and flatly arranged, all in all resembling in leaf texture and form much of rupicola! Your presumably rupicola hybrid reminds also to me partly roebeleni. Here is a presumably genuine rupicola of mine at about the same size as yours. I think a trained eye can observe the roebeleni-influence on your plant!

[Phoenikakias]

Geoff in the above link states about P. loureiroi:

'Some divide it up into two forms: Phoenix loureirii var loureirii, and Phoenix loureirii var humilis. The former is the more commonly encountered variety in botanical gardens and it looks a bit like a miniature Phoenix canariensis (sometimes suckering, but usually 1-3 stems only). The stem of this form is often irregularly marked with very closely spaced leaf scars, belying is relatively slow growth rate. The leaves are dark green, stiff, forming a dense, impenetrable crown of spiny leaflets, coming off the rachis in two distinct planes. Some forms of this have blue-green leaves with very sharp, stiff leaflets, and some carefully have selected these for cultivation. Sometimes these forms are referred to as Phoenix 'hanceana'.

Read more: http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/529/#ixzz2pNjcpLBH

My plant bought as P. loureiroi fits exactly in to this description. Of course main (original stem) died at a very young age and since then whole plant started suckering prolificly, until a one stem of the many has prevailed in growth rate and hence size. It remains to see whether the suckering habit will in future gradually fade off.

[sonoranfans]

Trimming a mature Phoenix sylvestris is pretty much a nightmare because the density of the crown, no room to get above the frond to cut.. I have about 10 on my property, love the look but this is the only palm I have that I hire out to have trimmed when mature.

Axel,

can you grow rupicola up there? I think it's gotta be my favorite species within the genus. they have pretty nasty spines as well, but the fronds are soft and very tropical looking.

Rupicola spines are not very rigid, they are the least injurious of all phoenix. I have a triple that is easy to trim and it is easily my favorite phoenix, very tropical and lush looking. I have 3 sylvestris, 2 are pretty close to pure, the third is too thick of trunk and wide of crown to be pure. they are all silver green and have the nastiest thorns of any palm I have. Sylvestris even stab you with the leaflet tips, I periodically consider removing them after a stab. Phoenix sylvestris is the fastest growing phoenix I have seen, and I have grown them in both Arizona and florida from texas grown seedlings(save my one hybrid which was a florida purchase). I have seen these go from 3 gallon 18" seedling to 6' overall in 2 years in the ground. they do love heat and lots of sun to grow their best. Adult sylvestris hold MANY leaves, more than one hundred. I trim them with a pole trimmer to prevent serious injury. Once they get tall, I'm not sure what I will do(hence I think of removing them periodically). On the plus side they are pretty cold hardy palms and all those leaves make for beautiful crowns.

Tom, you agree that sylvestris among all Phoenix spss has the most deeply penetrating root system? BTW has it ever occured to you from an f1b hybridization of an apparently hybrid male reclinata with a pure female reclinata to get an almost precisely looking alike sylvestris?

Redant, I never trim old fronds from above, instead always from beneath.

BTW does male sylvestris produce fragrant flowers like dactylifera?

Konstantinos I have not dug enough phoenix species to know about root depth and I expect that this a also a function of soil type. The sylvestris do grow roots very rapidly in my experience. On the hybrid question, I have not heard of this but I suppose variable genetics could get you a suckering sylvestris silver green type palm. I am very wary of reclinata hybrids as I had a huge reclinata hybrid(with CIDP?) in Arizona that was the nastiest palm ever, 5" spines that could run through your hand. And that dang thing suckered so profusely it was unmanageable, and the leaflet tips would stab you through a sweatshirt. Trimming it with a flamethrower might be the best way . The guy who bought my Arizona house ripped out many of the palms, but I smile inside knowing that somebody had to deal with that 5 trunk viciously spiny hybrid . I once saw phil bergman had a rupicola/reclinata hybrid which I thought might be gorgeous, but after my injuries trimming my reclinata hybrid I decided to steer clear of any reclinata hybrid. I have what I wanted, I planted a triple rupicola that is beautiful, and its spines are not stiff, its a less injurious trim than my copernicias and livistonas. And they great thing about rupicolas is that they don't need to be trimmed so much as they are moderately slow growers.

[Phoenikakias]

Geoff states further

'The other form (var humilis) is invariably a suckering tree with thinner trunks and neater, sparser crowns. The leaves on this species have leaflets that appear to be in a single plane, or nearly so, in contrast to the markedly distinct planes seen in the other variety. This variety is much less common in cultivation. That the two are even related is hard to believe sometimes as they about as unalike as any Phoenix species. However, the basis for the varietal designation is strictly based on minute floral morphological differences only. I will never understand taxonomists!'

Read more: http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/529/#ixzz2pNmOV0LU

Well, another specimen of mine bought as hanceana fits also exactly in to this description

[Phoenikakias]

So far so good you may think, but Phil in his page (http://www.junglemusic.net/new%20plant%20arrivals/new_plant_arrivals_Sept_thru_October_2012.html) states 'PHOENIX HANCEANA
This is a shorter form of the Pheonix
genus with a somewhat stout trunk but
only a height up to about 10 feet. Of
interest is that sometimes it suckers,
other times it is single trunk. The
leaflets are pointed like many Phoenix
species. It is synonymous with P.
loureiri var loureiri.'

And further it is a fact that that a potted exemplary pictured there is very, very similiar to my 'hanceana' at a younger age. It follows a picture of it at a young age and compare it please with the picture Phil attaches to the description of hanceana.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Geoff in the above link states about P. loureiroi:

'Some divide it up into two forms: Phoenix loureirii var loureirii, and Phoenix loureirii var humilis. The former is the more commonly encountered variety in botanical gardens and it looks a bit like a miniature Phoenix canariensis (sometimes suckering, but usually 1-3 stems only). The stem of this form is often irregularly marked with very closely spaced leaf scars, belying is relatively slow growth rate. The leaves are dark green, stiff, forming a dense, impenetrable crown of spiny leaflets, coming off the rachis in two distinct planes. Some forms of this have blue-green leaves with very sharp, stiff leaflets, and some carefully have selected these for cultivation. Sometimes these forms are referred to as Phoenix 'hanceana'.

Read more: http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/529/#ixzz2pNjcpLBH

My plant bought as P. loureiroi fits exactly in to this description. Of course main (original stem) died at a very young age and since then whole plant started suckering prolificly, until a one stem of the many has prevailed in growth rate and hence size. It remains to see whether the suckering habit will in future gradually fade off.

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Did you look at RPS so you can see how many different forms of Phoenix loureirii are actually out there? RPS is just the tip of the Iceberg. Even more complex than any dypsis species.

well Axel, if your rupicola hybrid doesn't turn out to be a cross, its still a nice looking tree. rupicolas have a tendency to yellow out when young but yours is quite green.

as for the suckering roebeleniis, check out the description on Jungle Music: http://www.junglemusic.net/articles/the_pygmy_date_palm/thepygmydatepalm.html

phil typed out a really nice description of the species.

Very interesting article from Phil, I had no idea phoenix roebelini suckers in the wild. He thinks the single trunking version in cultivation is due to hybridization, probably with canary date palms. Definitely weird. Hard to get any pure phoenix these days since they hybridize so readily.

[Sabal Steve]

Axel, since we are on the topic of hybridization, I was curious if you had any input on this? A few others had already chimed in, but I would like to know what your thoughts are, as you seem to have interest in the genus.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/39615-phoenix-rupicola/?hl=rupicola

[Phoenikakias]

I have explained in an older topic (in the cold hardy section) that natural hybridization in the genus Phoenix is not as easy and probable as thought to be. If solitary roebelenii specimens are actually crosses with CIDP in them, then why do they give up with only -2 C and some snow? If you see Phoenix hybrids you'd better search for the man, who did it deliberately!

About the Phoenix loureiroi, Axel, I agree that between the two extreme and with different geographical dispersal (almost continuously nevertheless) forms, there should be also many intermediate ones, at least this sounds very plausible. One other issue is whether there are some distinctive features for some or all loureiroi forms. I dare say that on some lourereiroi forms arrangement of acanthophylls may be a distintive feature when spines/acnthophylls are aranged spirally so that one can see spines growing to entirely opposite direction.

Another feature may be also the proportionally (compared to the total length of the frond) very long spiny part of leaf rachis (could it be called 'pseudopetiole'?)

[Phoenikakias]

[Phoenikakias]

Axel, your reclinata X roebeleni hybrid is from reclinata seeds? I have crossed also female reclinata with pollen from roebeleni and resulted plants have up to now very soft leaves (even eophylle had been soft) and pinnae on first and second pinnate frond are evenly and flatly arranged, all in all resembling in leaf texture and form much of rupicola!

[Phoenikakias]

Further I believe that a constant trait of hybrids with roebeleni in them are the long and thin petiole spines. Here's a shot of the spines on my rupicola and compare them with the spines of the reclinata x roebelenii hybrid, latter even only two years old has longer spines.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Phoenikakias

[Phoenikakias]

Rupicola is hands down my favorite phoenix species. I have three of them. I also have Rupicola x roebelini, looks pretty cool. Someone gave me a reclinata x roebelini. I am still waiting to see what form it will take.

Rupicola x roebelini? haven't seen or heard of this cross before. did you cross this one yourself? does it sucker like true roebelinis? id love to see pictures if you have them.

I've never seen a suckering roebelini.

Here is the rupicola x roebelini, looks more like a regular rupicola to me, but it's got a little of the roebelini look to it. This one is getting planted today. I don't care if it's actually just a rupicola, it's a beautiful specimen!

Here is the sylvestris and loureiri: the sylvestris is the larger specimen on the left, the ends of the leaflets are sharp and pokey. The loureiri on the right is much softe, but both do have spines. The loureiroi is supposed to be var. pedunculata, the suckering kind, but I see no suckers so far. Both of these are getting planted today, they're extremely root bound and difficult to water in the pot. The sylvestris is going into my thorny palm section where no one ventures these days due to the hazards already there.

Here is the reclinata x roebelini, this one is supposed to sucker, but I've not seen any suckers yet. I am waiting to see what the overall form will be before I plant it.

Frankly I am not sure at all whether suckering habit on reclinata hybrids is a dominating trait or not, maybe some plants need to be outplanted or reach a certain size before they start suckering. Anyway after two years in the ground only one out of five specimens-hybrids of pure reclinata with hybrid reclinata (both parent plants sucker) has produced suckers.

Does this specimen remid you even vaguely a sylvestris at same age?